Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    
    I think all "faiths", no matter their object, have relevance and appeal
    or they would not exist.  All faiths, outside of faith in Christ, are
    creations of men/devils in which humanity attempts to blot out from
    their mind and thus deceive themselves concerning the true God, sin, 
    guilt, and certain judgement.
    
    I prefer the question, what good is a faith, other than as a temporal
    diversion, which has no basis in eternal reality and which offers no hope 
    of salvation from sin and reconciliation to a personal, sovereign God?
    
    jeff

.1
    
>    I prefer the question, what good is a faith, other than as a temporal
>    diversion, which has no basis in eternal reality and which offers no hope 
>    of salvation from sin and reconciliation to a personal, sovereign God?
    
I suggest that the questions of life after life and personal salvation
may not hold as much relevance or appeal for many, including Christians,
as others might like.

Richard

 Z   I suggest that the questions of life after life and personal salvation
 Z   may not hold as much relevance or appeal for many, including
 Z   Christians, as others might like.
    
    Richard, would you say this is a pretty sad commentary on the church? 
    I would!  Considering our time is very short here and even moreso, we
    live in a world riveted with sin.  
    
    -Jack

 Z   I suggest that the questions of life after life and personal salvation
 Z   may not hold as much relevance or appeal for many, including
 Z   Christians, as others might like.

    I *think* what Richard is saying here is that there are those
    who are working to alleviate the suffering of sinners, to show
    them a better way to live and show them that sin is it's own
    reward and show them that peace and love will get them what
    they need.  In the mean time, heaven can take care of itself.
    Our part of salvation is born more through attitude than by 
    adherance to doctrine.  These people concentrate more on
    serving God and man than on staying out of hell.

    I hope I didn't put any unwanted words in your mouth, Richard.

    Tom

     Z   I *think* what Richard is saying here is that there are those
     Z   who are working to alleviate the suffering of sinners, to show
     Z   them a better way to live and show them that sin is it's own
     Z   reward 
    
    And I believe this is a ministry we as Christians are called to. 
    Understand however that Jesus did in fact say, "Not all who say to me
    Lord Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven..."  I believe how we
    obtain or inherit sonship is more important.  
    
    -Jack

.3

>    Richard, would you say this is a pretty sad commentary on the church? 

Well, I would say it depends on what you mean.  To me, Christianity has
always been a great deal more than life after life and personal salvation.

Richard

Is the salvational value of brotherly love diminished if it is merely a means
for personal gain (salvation)?  Which is greater in the eyes of God, love
expressed by a believer as a means to attain personal salvation or love
expressed by an atheist as an end unto itself?

    Re .7

>   Is the salvational value of brotherly love diminished if it is merely a
>   means for personal gain (salvation)?  Which is greater in the eyes of God,
>   love expressed by a believer as a means to attain personal salvation or
>   love expressed by an atheist as an end unto itself?

    Let's not confuse salvation with the life and work of the Christian.
    Salvation comes ONLY through belief in Christ.  There is nothing to do but
    believe.  There is no merit (FOR SALVATION) in brotherly love.  Brotherly
    love is important because it a reflection of God's character.  A Christian
    obeys God because he loves God not because he hopes to gain something.
    Salvation is free!

    Eph 2:8 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this
    not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -- NOT BY WORKS, so that no one
    can boast."

    Michael

 Z   Which is greater in the eyes of God, love
 Z   expressed by a believer as a means to attain personal salvation or love
 Z   expressed by an atheist as an end unto itself?
    
    As a means of attaining favor in the eyes of God....neither.
    
    -Jack

Re .4

>   I *think* what Richard is saying here is that there are those
>   who are working to alleviate the suffering of sinners, to show
>   them a better way to live and show them that sin is it's own
>   reward

    So far so good.

>   and show them that peace and love will get them what they need.

    This is like feeding a hungry, dying man with one hand while with-holding
    the medicine which will cure him in the other.

    We must not water down the good news of Christ to make it more palatable
    to the world.  In scripture this is known as spiritual adultery;
    unfaithfulness to God and His message.

>   In the mean time, heaven can take care of itself.

    Say what?

>   Our part of salvation is born more through attitude than by
>   adherance to doctrine.

    We have no part in salvation beyond accepting the free gift of it.
    Doctrine grows us in our walk with God.

>   These people concentrate more on
>   serving God and man than on staying out of hell.

    Serving God and "staying out of hell" are ultimately the same thing!  One
    cannot serve God if one is not first reconciled to Him via the sacrifice
    of Christ and the acceptance thereof.

    Michael

RE .7 (Michael)

>Let's not confuse salvation with the life and work of the Christian.

Yet Jesus gave us the parable about the pearl of great value (the kingdom
of God?  = Salvation?).  Certainly one interpretation of the parable would
be instruction for us to strive to attain this great pearl.  It implies
some active participation on our behalf.


>There is nothing to do but believe.

Are you saying that one's actions in this life are irrelevant with regard
to salvation?


>Brotherly love is important because it a reflection of God's character.

If it's unnecessary, then why is it important?


>Eph 2:8...

Seems to divorce conduct from salvation.  Are there other passages which would
indicate the contrary?





RE .9 (Jack)

>As a means of attaining favor in the eyes of God....neither.

Yet loving one's neighbor as oneself is the second of the two greatest
commandments.  Would not obedience to this commandment be seen as favorable
by God?



-dave



                      

Z    Yet loving one's neighbor as oneself is the second of the two greatest
Z    commandments.  Would not obedience to this commandment be seen as
Z    favorable by God?
    
    I'll answer this question with a question.  Of what value is it to us
    if we do it while in an unredeemed state?  While the attitude may be
    seen as favorable by God, it is of no effect as far as salvation is
    concerned!  
    
    -Jack

>Of what value is it...

Well, if nothing else, it makes for a constructive, peaceful life.  It's a 
wise philosophy to follow, with or without any religious implications.

There's redemption and then there's moral conduct.  Moral conduct without
redemption may not equal salvation.  But is moral conduct along with
redemption necessary for salvation?  

-dave

>Z    Yet loving one's neighbor as oneself is the second of the two greatest
>Z    commandments.  Would not obedience to this commandment be seen as
>Z    favorable by God?
>    
>    I'll answer this question with a question.  Of what value is it to us
>    if we do it while in an unredeemed state?  While the attitude may be

    To love one's neighbor and to love God is to be redeemed.  That's
    what Jesus lived for.  That's what Jesus died for.  That is the
    sacrifice of Christ, that we may love one another.

    To simply believe is not enough.  If you bury it in the ground
    and don't *do* anything with it, the Master will get ticked off.

    Tom

    Wait a minute...
    
    >To love one's neighbor and to love God is to be redeemed.
    
    Isn't that the same as saying that love of God and neighbor gets you
    salvation?  I'm getting lost in your use of the words "is to be" and
    what you mean by them.  Are you saying that love "causes" salvation?
    
    -dave

    I believe being in a state of love, with God and with others,
    is being in a state of grace, a state of communion.  It doesn't
    GET you salvation, it *IS* salvation.

    Jesus pointed the way.  We just have to follow.  No problem, eh? :-)

    Tom

RE .11 (Dave)

    Hi Dave!  Its good to talk to you again.

> Yet Jesus gave us the parable about the pearl of great value (the kingdom
> of God?  = Salvation?).  Certainly one interpretation of the parable would
> be instruction for us to strive to attain this great pearl.  It implies
> some active participation on our behalf.

    Jesus is the pearl merchant.  The pearl is the church.  Jesus sold
    everything to purchase salvation for us.  We can do nothing to purchase
    salvation.  We demean the price He paid if we try.

    
>> There is nothing to do but believe.
>
> Are you saying that one's actions in this life are irrelevant with regard
> to salvation?

    Yes!  However, if after becoming a Christian ones actions do not reflect a
    changed nature then it is doubtful that there is true belief.


>> Brotherly love is important because it a reflection of God's character.
>
> If it's unnecessary, then why is it important?

    Brotherly love is important but lets not put the cart before the horse.

    It is unnecessary for salvation, not because it is unimportant, but
    because we can't be good enough on our own.

    Lets say Moe can jump a foot in the air, Larry can jump two feet, and
    Curly can jump three.  Now Curly may be the best jumper but which one can
    jump to the moon?  None of them.  It doesn't matter whose better unless
    one of them can jump the whole way there.

    It doesn't matter how good we are because none of us are capable of living
    the 100% perfectly sinless life that is necessary to be right with a holy
    God.  Therefore God came to us.  He erased the sin that keeps us apart
    from Him.

    All "good" works are "good" because they are reflections of the character
    of God - who defines all existence.

    
>> Eph 2:8...
>
> Seems to divorce conduct from salvation.  Are there other passages which
> would indicate the contrary?

    It DOES divorce conduct from salvation.  All Scripture does.  God tells us
    through the prophet Isaiah "all our righteousness acts are like filthy
    rags" Isa 64:6.  All we do *FOR THE PURPOSE OF ATTAINING SALVATION* is
    worthless.
    
    There are those in this conference who disagree but they have no
    scriptural basis for saying so.

    There are no other passages, taken in context, which would indicate the
    contrary.  Some attempt to use James 2:17 for such, "faith by itself, if
    it is not accompanied by action, is dead."  However it is clear from
    reading the rest of the chapter that what James is saying is what I said
    above:  If ones actions do not reflect a changed nature then it is
    doubtful that there is true belief (faith).

    Michael

Z    To love one's neighbor and to love God is to be redeemed.  That's
Z    what Jesus lived for.  That's what Jesus died for.  That is the
Z    sacrifice of Christ, that we may love one another.
    
    Tom, not to be condescending...I don't mean to be.  I will simply state
    that by the tenets of the gospels and by the exact words Jesus spoke,
    your statement above is simply incorrect.  Jesus death on the cross is
    very significant to the tenets of Old Testament sacrifice, the
    Levitical law, and the requirements of the temple.  The sacrifice of
    Christ...that we may love one another???  It sounds like you just told
    the story..."Once upon a time the end!"  Let me fill in the middle for
    you.
    
    Jesus did NOT redeem us through OUR love for God and our neighbor. 
    Jesus redeemed us from sin Tom.  Jesus redeemed us from the penalty of
    sin, eternal judgement and hell.  It is through our redemption by Jesus
    blood for SIN...
    
    In a way, you are correct in saying to Love God is to be redeemed. 
    However, to love God would require Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. 
    Without that, we are enemies of the most high.
    
    Am I to assume Tom, that you go by the school of thought that we are
    not born into sin?  I believe this is currently the most destructive
    belief in the world today!
    
    -Jack

>    In a way, you are correct in saying to Love God is to be redeemed. 
>    However, to love God would require Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. 

    There you go!  Whatever works.

>    Am I to assume Tom, that you go by the school of thought that we are
>    not born into sin?

    I believe we are born into this world in need of growing up.
    Part of that is giving up selfish and mean-spirited ways and
    learning that love is a much better way to proceed.

    Tom

 ZZZ    There you go!  Whatever works.
    
    Maybe it is the nomenclature you chose...but the actual point is....
    This is the only thing that will work...it isn't so much whatever
    works.
    
    The pharisees of Jesus time...some of them were of gentle spirit and
    deep knowledge of the Mosaic law.  They lacked one thing
    however...they lived in an unredeemed state.  
    
    -Jack

    But what if redemption (life after life, personal salvation) holds little
    relevance or appeal to the gentle spirit who follows Christ, that is, a
    Christian?  What if one is not a Christian for personal gain?  What if
    one is not interested in the "carrot"?
    
    Richard
    

re .20

Jack,

I don't understand your argument.

;    The pharisees of Jesus time...some of them were of gentle spirit and
;    deep knowledge of the Mosaic law.  They lacked one thing
;    however...they lived in an unredeemed state. 

To explain, Jesus had not given his life as a ransom so his disciples were
also in an unredeemed state (compare Psalms 49:7-8). What differentiated 
Jesus' disciples from the religious leaders who were versed in the Law?.

Phil.
 

re .21

	Richard,

	Yes, a Christian should follow Jesus' footsteps out of a love for God
	that is wanting to be pleasing to God. Ones primary concern shouldn't 
	be for the blessing that God gives to those who excerise faith. However,
	the apostle Paul gave an illustration of the runner and the need to 
	keep ones eyes on the prize ahead (1 Corinthians 9:24-27, 2 Corinthians 
	4:18). Just like the hundred metre runners who are totally focused on 
	that finishing tape. A Christian will be helped by focusing on finishing 
	his christian course as a footstep follower during this world or system 
	of things. Without such focus he could easily be led astray by this world 
	and the glittering things it offers (1 John 2:15-17).

	Jesus showed in his illustration of the narrow road and broad road that 
	a christian is not OSAS when he begins to believe in God, rather he has
	to walk this narrow road (footstep follower of Christ 1 Peter 2:21) to 
	it's conclusion to receive the prize ahead. Otherwise, he may find himself 
	walking the broad road again which leads to destruction (Matthew 7:13,14).

	Phil. 

re .23

	Richard,

	I just want to clarify my reply, looking forward to the prize ahead
	is not something selfish. For example, there are many  prophecies
	such as an end to war on earth (Psalm 46:9) sickness and death being
	no more (Revelation 21:3-5). Many people sigh over the conditions
	of suffering we see today and look forward to a time when these
	things will be eradicated not just for a few but all of mankind
	whom want to live in such a new world (Isaiah 61:1,2, Psalms 37:9-11).

	Phil.

Re  .19

>>  However, to love God would require Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
>
>   There you go!  Whatever works.

    Tom,

    Lets be clear.  When you read "Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior" do you
    understand that to mean "Jesus Christ the *ONE and ONLY* uniquely divine
    Son of God who rose from the dead is the ruler of your life and the entire
    and only reason that one is saved and has a relationship with God?"

    Michael

Re  .21

>   But what if redemption (life after life, personal salvation) holds little
>   relevance or appeal to the gentle spirit who follows Christ, that is, a
>   Christian?

    Richard,

    Life after life and personal salvation are part of the package.  True
    believers accept these without reservation.  Do you believe in them at
    all?  How can anyone, who does believe, not consider standing before the
    judgement seat of God relevent?  How can anyone, who does believe, be so
    uncaring toward his fellow man that he would rather they face this than
    offend them by telling them the truth about God's plan of salvation?

    Michael

re Note 1240.25 by SLBLUZ::CREWS:

>     Lets be clear.  When you read "Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior" do you
>     understand that to mean "Jesus Christ the *ONE and ONLY* uniquely divine
>     Son of God who rose from the dead is the ruler of your life and the entire
>     and only reason that one is saved and has a relationship with God?"
  
        The failure to understand and agree to which part of the
        above would disqualify one from salvation?

        Bob

    
>    But what if redemption (life after life, personal salvation) holds little
>    relevance or appeal to the gentle spirit who follows Christ, that is, a
>    Christian?  

"Following Christ" is a very vague term.  I suspect there are many self-
professed Christians who do not follow Christ but follow their own conception
of Christ, a vain imagination.  And if a self-professed Christian finds no
relevance or appeal in life after life or personal salvation then s/he has
no interest in seeing and being with Jesus Christ.
 
>What if one is not a Christian for personal gain?  
>What if one is not interested in the "carrot"?
    
>    Richard

What if one thinks he's a Christian because he ascended to some set of
rules or beliefs or behaviors and has missed the whole point altogether?
What if one, who believes he's found a superior way, mischaracterizes
altogether the motivation of those who are born by the grace of God and
are in tremendous, obvious spiritual need of salvation?

jeff


    

| <<< Note 1240.28 by ALFSS1::BENSON "Eternal Weltanschauung" >>>



| What if one thinks he's a Christian because he ascended to some set of rules 
| or beliefs or behaviors and has missed the whole point altogether? What if 
| one, who believes he's found a superior way, mischaracterizes altogether the 
| motivation of those who are born by the grace of God and are in tremendous, 
| obvious spiritual need of salvation?

	I would have to say you should change your ways, Jeff! 


	Sorry, I couldn't resist! :-)


	It isn't up to YOU to change the person. God will give this, and other
people like him/her, a lot of chances to make a change. What you may view as an
obvious change, may actually be right/wrong. Make your views known, and let God
handle it from there.


Glen

    RE: .28  Jeff.

    This person:
    
>"Following Christ" is a very vague term.  I suspect there are many self-
>professed Christians who do not follow Christ but follow their own conception
>of Christ, a vain imagination.  

    and this person

>And if a self-professed Christian finds no
>relevance or appeal in life after life or personal salvation then s/he has
>no interest in seeing and being with Jesus Christ.

    Are not necessarily the same person.  And, if one is not looking
    for life after life that does not necessarily mean they have no
    interest in seeing and being with Jesus Christ,  unless you believe
    the only way to see Christ is by dying.
 
>What if one thinks he's a Christian because he ascended to some set of
>rules or beliefs or behaviors and has missed the whole point altogether?
>What if one, who believes he's found a superior way, mischaracterizes
>altogether the motivation of those who are born by the grace of God and
>are in tremendous, obvious spiritual need of salvation?

    I bump in to these people every day.  Depressing, isn't it.

    Tom

    RE: .25 Micheal

>    Lets be clear.  When you read "Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior" do you
>    understand that to mean "Jesus Christ the *ONE and ONLY* uniquely divine
>    Son of God who rose from the dead is the ruler of your life and the entire
>    and only reason that one is saved and has a relationship with God?"

    You seem to be trying to put me through a "litmus test".  Excuse me,
    but you aren't St. Peter.  *You* don't determine who is "saved" and
    who isn't.

    Get off it, Micheal.  You don't own the copyright on what Christianity
    is and isn't.  I will *NOT* "love" God out of fear.  There are
    better ways to practice Christianity and far more productive and
    loving ways to live my life.

    Tom

Re  .27

>>  Jesus Christ the *ONE and ONLY* uniquely divine
>>  Son of God who rose from the dead is the ruler of your life and the entire
>>  and only reason that one is saved and has a relationship with God

>   The failure to understand and agree to which part of the
>   above would disqualify one from salvation?

    The Holy Spirit gives the truly saved person this understanding.

    Michael

.32 continued

    And do you have a problem with part of this statement?

     Z   You seem to be trying to put me through a "litmus test".  Excuse me,
     Z   but you aren't St. Peter.  *You* don't determine who is "saved" and
     Z   who isn't.
    
    Tom, I got a chuckle out of this...not meaning to cut you down but just
    as an FYI to all of us, Peter doesn't really stand at the pearly
    gates! :-)  
    
  Z   *You* don't determine who is "saved" and
  Z   who isn't.
    
    Absolutely correct...just as I don't decide who has the right to
    petition our government on the street corner.  This privelege was given
    to us by the Constitution just as scripture is also a glimpse of Gods
    holiness.  
    
    Could you define the words of the master here..."He was believes in me
    shall not be condemned but he who does not believe is condemned already
    because he hath no believed in the name of the only son of God."  
    
    A quote from Jesus Christ himself...John 3:18.  I'm just curious as to
    how you rationalize this kind of warning and put it in harmony with the
    unconditional love Jesus had for us.
    
    Incidently, regarding fear.  I believe God honors fear in a sense of
    reverence.  "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."  I
    believe the fear we should have is simply acknowledging our position as
    opposed to a holy God.
    
    -Jack

Z    I don't understand your argument.
    
Z    ;    The pharisees of Jesus time...some of them were of gentle spirit and
Z    ;    deep knowledge of the Mosaic law.  They lacked one thing
Z    ;    however...they lived in an unredeemed state.
    
    Phil, the argument here is that a gentle spirit even accompanied with a
    deep knowledge of Old Testament scripture does NOT make one a redeemed
    individual.  What makes a person redeemed, as you well know, is Jesus
    Christ.  
    
    So, if Barrabus spent his whole life as a tough individual and became a
    believer in the final days of his life...while a gentle spirited non
    believer spent his whole life feeding the hungry never became a
    believer, human thinking will tell us that they both are redeemed.  My
    conclusion leads me to believe the non believer is unredeemed.  His
    efforts provided temporal blessings for many, but he died in the shadow
    of Gods judgement instead of God's mercy.
    
    -Jack

>"He was believes in me
>    shall not be condemned but he who does not believe is condemned already..

>...the unconditional love Jesus had for us.

Sounds to me like there is a condition, namely belief in Jesus.  If Jesus is 
God, and God is omnipotent, could he not save the disbelievers, an act of
unconditional love?

-dave

 Z   Sounds to me like there is a condition, namely belief in Jesus.  If
 Z   Jesus is 
 Z   God, and God is omnipotent, could he not save the disbelievers, an act
 Z   of unconditional love?
    
    Well, as scripture teaches, nothing can seperate us from the love of
    God.  Since this is the case, I am lead to conclude that it is we who
    condemn ourselves.  God in his unconditional love has offered the
    sacrifice for us.
    
    -Jack

Re  .31

>>   Lets be clear.  When you read "Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior" do you
>>   understand that to mean "Jesus Christ the *ONE and ONLY* uniquely divine
>>   Son of God who rose from the dead is the ruler of your life and the entire
>>   and only reason that one is saved and has a relationship with God"
>
>   You seem to be trying to put me through a "litmus test".  Excuse me,
>   but you aren't St. Peter.  *You* don't determine who is "saved" and
>   who isn't.

    I course I don't.  And neither does Peter.  But Peter would agree to the
    above statement about Jesus (as would Jesus and *ALL* his Apostles).

    "Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: ...It is by the
    name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised
    from the dead, that this man stands before you healed.  He [Jesus] is 'the
    stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.'
**     Salvation is found in NO ONE ELSE, for there is no other name under
**     heaven given to men by which we must be saved." Acts 4:8-12

    It is God's word which consistently attests to this.  I merely convey it.

    What is YOUR authority?  What gives you the right to say the Scriptures
    have it wrong?


>   Get off it, Micheal.  You don't own the copyright on what Christianity
>   is and isn't.

    I perceive you are angry with me.  I apologize if I've shared something
    with you in an unloving way.  Such was never my intent.  However I make no
    apology for God's truth from his word.  The Scriptures spell out what
    Christianity IS, not I.  I'm just the messenger.

    On what authority do you define Christianity to be other that what God
    plainly spells out in Scripture?


>   I will *NOT* "love" God out of fear.

    Do you think I think God sends people to hell?  No!  We send ourselves
    there.  God rescues us.  The response to this is one of gratefulness and
    thankfulness, not fear.

    Michael

    
    Hi Dave,
    
    "Unconditional love" is a much-misused and much-misapplied term and you 
    won't find it in the Bible.  The unregenerate are under God's wrath and
    judgement and will not be saved from eternal punishment, according to
    the Bible.  Regenerate man can be said to be loved unconditionally by
    God but taken to its extreme even this proposition is false.
    
    I pray that you will read your Bible, Dave, and ask God to give you
    faith in His Son and repentance from your rebellion against God!
    
    jeff

>   Sounds to me like there is a condition, namely belief in Jesus.

    Does a drowning man who's been rescued and dragged ashore consider is a
    condition of being saved that he didn't oppose the efforts of his rescuer?

>   If Jesus is God, and God is omnipotent, could he not save the
>   disbelievers, an act of unconditional love?

    God's love values our free will.  As Jack said, we condemn ourselves.  God
    offers the way out.

    Michael

    >    I pray that you will read your Bible, Dave, and ask God to give you
    >    faith in His Son and repentance from your rebellion against God!
    
    
    Not rebelling, rather I'm seeking.. for some 2 decades now.  What have
    I found?  Well, the Christian God seems mired down in an elaborate
    collection of ancient texts.  An anthology authored by a thousand
    people, a tale of people and events of the distant past, translated
    down through the ages.  Exactly what the truth is seems to be a
    constant point of contention amoung believers to the point where the
    religion has been fragmented into hundreds (perhaps thousands) of
    different denominations and millins of debates.  It seems to be a very
    complex system that can only be accepted via a huge leap of faith. 
    Some Eastern religions (or philosophies) seems a lot cleaner, simpler
    and easy to accept.  They don't interpret texts or try to establish
    truths.  They seem more "experiential" (if you know  what I mean) and
    require no faith whatsoever.  But they lack explanations or
    definitions.
    
    The search goes on.  
    
    -dave

    Romans I believe states,
    
    "For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor
    principalities nor powers nor things present nor things to come, nor
    height nor depth nor any other creature shall be able to separate us
    from the love of God."  5:38
    
    I take this to be agape love or as I termed it, unconditional love. 
    However, I didn't take into consideration who Paul was addressing this
    to...namely a regenerated body of believers.
    
    -Jack

Re  .26

>    Life after life and personal salvation are part of the package.

Nobody said they weren't.  Simply that they might hold little relevance or
appeal.  Many seem to push them as if they were the whole package.

Richard

re .35

Jack,

Let me clarify, why I don't understand your argument.

Z    ;    The pharisees of Jesus time...some of them were of gentle spirit and
Z    ;    deep knowledge of the Mosaic law.  They lacked one thing
Z    ;    however...they lived in an unredeemed state.

In another note there has been a discussion between Ace and myself regarding
the Law and whether or not God intended for it to be kept by the Jews. One
thing we were in agreement with was that the Law highlighted the imperfection
or sinfulness of those under it, apart from Jesus ofcourse. It showed their
need for redemption. Many of those who listened and followed Jesus did so
by discerning that Jesus was the Messiah and had the authority to forgive 
sins, they excersised faith in him. But Jesus had to give his life a sacrifice
so that others might be redeemed (Matthew 20:28). Hence, those that followed 
him were also in an "unredeemed state" but had faith (compare Hewbrews 11:1) 
that Jesus could help them in the predicament they found themselves in.

The difference was the Pharisees heart condition, the gospel account shows
them to be self-righteous and in no need of redemption. Not so the tax 
collectors and others whom repented recognising their imperfection and applied 
faith in Jesus. Jesus brings this out in the parable the lost sheep, "The 
Bible in Basic English" Luke 15:1-7 reads "Now all the tax-farmers, and 
sinners came near to give ear to him. And the Pharisees and scribes were 
angry, saying This man gives approval to sinners, and takes food with them. 
And he made a story for them, saying, What man of you, having a hundred sheep, 
if one of them get's loose and goes away, will not let the ninety-nine be in 
the waste land by themselves, and go after the wandering one, till he sees 
where it is? And when he has got it again, he takes it in his arms with joy. 
And when he gets back to his house, he sends for his neighbours and friends, 
saying to them, Be glad with me, for I have got back my sheep which had gone 
away. I say to you that even so there will be more joy in heaven when one 
sinner turned away from his wrongdoing, than for ninety-nine good men, who 
have no need of a change of heart." Notice the parable was directed at the 
religious leaders, they were the 99 men (who in there own eyes were "good" 
that is self-righteous) whom had no need of repentance or "change of heart". 
All their religious rituals and sacrifices were of no value for they did not
recognise their sinful state or need for a redeemer. Not so the humble
tax-collector or sinner whom were turning to God and his Messiah for
help. This brought much joy in the heavens, for even one sinner repenting
brought joy, yet 99 self-righteous persons with their rituals etc didn't.

The gospel accounts showed that Jesus had little time for the self-righteous
religious leaders of his time, not so the lost sheep of Israel.

My reason for questioning your argument is that we shouldn't go further than
what is written. Paul puts in simple terms what the religious leaders lacked
in Romans 11:20 "Truly, because they had a lack of faith they were broken off, 
and you have your place by reason of your faith. Do not be lifted up with pride, 
but have fear;" (The Bible in Basic English).


Phil.

    Phil:
    
    I see your point in this.  However, I also acknowledge to myself that
    the Holy Spirit is an integral part of salvation.  It is the Holy
    Spirit which bestows righteousness upon a believer, for without the
    Holy Spirit, we like King Saul and others in scripture are in an
    unredeemed state.
    
    All this to say that the social gospel, as I understand it, cannot be
    an adequate replacement for bestowing righteousness in place of the
    Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit, a mark of God, is only attained through
    faith in Jesus Christ, his death and resurrection.  That was what I was
    trying to say.
    
    -Jack

re .45

Jack,

Thanks for replying, and I understand what your saying even so
I disagree because Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe all are anointed 
with holy spirit. Just the "Hundred and forty four thousand" bought 
from the earth (Revelation 14:3) and ofcourse Jesus Christ when he 
was baptised.

;    I see your point in this.  However, I also acknowledge to myself that
;    the Holy Spirit is an integral part of salvation.  It is the Holy
;    Spirit which bestows righteousness upon a believer, for without the
;    Holy Spirit, we like King Saul and others in scripture are in an
;    unredeemed state.
    
James 2:23 shows how persons not "sealed" can receive God's approval
"And the holy Writings were put into effect which said, And Abraham
had faith in God and it was put to his account as righteousness; and
he was named the friend of God." (The Bible in Basic English). 

;    All this to say that the social gospel, as I understand it, cannot be
;    an adequate replacement for bestowing righteousness in place of the
;    Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit, a mark of God, is only attained through
;    faith in Jesus Christ, his death and resurrection.  That was what I was
;    trying to say.

We are in agreement here, many "good" people no doubt lost their lives at
the time of the flood because they took no note of what Jehovah was about
to do, in otherwords they could have chosen to join Noah and his family
in escaping the great deluge (compare 2 Peter 2:5, Matthew 24:39). But 
it wasn't holy spirit that saved Noah and his family but their faith
that Jevovah can deliver his servants (2 Peter 2:9). As you know Jehovah's 
Witnesses preach the quickly approaching day of Armageddon, but many again 
will take no note (Matthew 24:37-39 again). Revelation 7:14 shows that there 
will be those whom will come through Armageddon alive because they have 
applied faith in Jesus' ransom sacrifice. My reason for sharing this is to 
show another perspective and that salvation can be viewed as being saved 
through a certain event, and separate to "eternal salvation". The First 
Century Christians avoided the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE because 
they applied faith and heeded Jesus' words to escape (Luke 21:20,21). You 
probabally know this, but what happened was that the Roman army surrounded
Jerusalem in 67 CE (I believe) and then for some reason got up and left. This
was the signal for the Christians to leave Jerusalem and not return. One can
imagine what would have happened if one lacked faith for just three years later
Jerusalem was destroyed and the majority of it's inhabitants were killed (if
I remember rightly only 100 thousand of it's 1.1 million inhabitants survived
and were taken captive). Similarly today Jesus has shared a vision of what
will happen (which God gave him, see 1:1) to the apostle Paul through the 
book of Revelation . We are told "A blessing be on the reader, and on those 
who give ear to the prophet's words, and keep things which he has put in the 
book: for the time is near." Revelation 1:3 (the Bible in Basic English). Many 
people lead good lives, but take no note of the day of "God's anger", and feel 
that being good is all that is required of them. It won't be that God hasn't 
informed them (Matthew 24:14) just they crowd out the more important things
by being caught up in the things of every day living. Yet one would think
persons would take note, for the provision of salvation was bought with
such a high price.

Phil. 

    Well Phil, in the matter of dispensationalism, I believe the Holy
    Spirit will be removed from this earth before the great tribulation.
    (1st Thessolonians 4 in context with 2nd Thessolonians and the great
    apostacy).   It would only make sense that this happens since the Holy
    Spirit is also known as the great restrainer.
    
    Keep in mind that multitudes will be saved in that time period.  I also
    have an article dated October 21, 1995 from the LA Times entitled,
    "Witnesses Drop Central Tenet About the Generation of 1914.  While it
    doesn't change the belief that we are in fact living in the end times,
    I submit to you that the leadership of your church did in fact err in
    attempting to predict the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ.  Therefore, I
    believe a complete restudy of the end times might be in order!
    
    Rgds.,
    
    -Jack

.45

>    All this to say that the social gospel, as I understand it, cannot be
>    an adequate replacement for bestowing righteousness in place of the
>    Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit, a mark of God, is only attained through
>    faith in Jesus Christ, his death and resurrection.  That was what I was
>    trying to say.

Your concern seems to be the social gospel absent the Spiritus Sanctus.  I
can understand your concern and I don't think I've ever advocated a contrary
condition.  My concern is those who claim to harbor the Spiritus Sanctus, but
who refuse to entangle themselves in the demands of the social gospel.

Richard

re .47

Jack,

Thanks for your concerns, but the fact that our leadership did change
their understanding on this verse shows they are continually restudying
Scripture. As Proverbs 4:18 reads "But the way of the upright is like
the light of early morning, getting brighter and brigther till the full
day." (The Bible in Basic English). This verse shows that Jehovah sheds
a progressive understanding regarding his prophecies as and when they
about to happen or are happening. They believe that God is continuing 
to bless them with new insight.

In imitation as Bible students we also continually restudy the book
of Revelation as be belive it is relevant to our times. That's not
to say we don't study all the other books of the Bible.

Btw, our leadership and ourselves do not no when the end will come
only the signs that lead upto it. Rather like the account of the
fall of Jerusalem, the Christians saw the sign to escape. For quite
long period of time nothing happened and the Jews would have felt
they had gained their independence from the Roman yoke. It would test
ones faith to see the relative peace in Jerusalem and yet stay away
knowing what Jesus said would happen.

Phil.

 Z   My concern is those who claim to harbor the Spiritus Sanctus, but
 Z   who refuse to entangle themselves in the demands of the social gospel.
    
    Ahhh...yes, I agree with you on this fully.  Fortunately, redemption
    comes quickly as it is all based on the work of Christ.  Unfortunately,
    entangling ourselves in living for Christ is a process that can be
    learned quickly for some while taking a long time for others! 
    Sometimes I need a nudge or two from others.  
    
    -Jack

Re  .43

>>  Life after life and personal salvation are part of the package.

>   Nobody said they weren't.  Simply that they might hold little relevance or
>   appeal.  Many seem to push them as if they were the whole package.

    Without them there is no package!  One is not a Christian at all without
    personal salvation.  One cannot serve God without personal salvation. "All
    our righteousness acts are like filthy rags" Isa 64:6.  Personal salvation
    is the establishment, BY GOD, of a loving personal relationship between us
    and Him.  How then can it have little appeal!

    The rather unkind implication of .21 was that anyone who holds personal
    salvation to be important is in it for personal gain.  Anyone who is a
    Christian already has personal salvation and, as a consequence, eternal
    life.  What then is to be gained?  There is no 'carrot' to be chased.

Re  .48

>   My concern is those who claim to harbor the Spiritus Sanctus, but
>   who refuse to entangle themselves in the demands of the social gospel.

    If by "social gospel" you mean loving concern and responsibility for the
    needs of our fellow man,  I agree.  This is certainly important; "Love thy
    neighbor as thyself".  However of paramount importance in loving your
    neighbor is telling them how they too can have a loving personal
    relationship with their creator (personal salvation).  Spiritual needs
    are more important than physical.

    Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on
    every word that comes from the mouth of God.'" - Math 4:4

    What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits
    his soul?  Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?  - Math 16:26

    Michael

.51

>    Without them there is no package!

I say a partial package is no package either.  Many who profess to be Christian
do exclude much, I have observed.

>    The rather unkind implication of .21 was that anyone who holds personal
>    salvation to be important is in it for personal gain.

And you've never known anyone to fit this condition?  Perhaps you haven't.

>    Spiritual needs
>    are more important than physical.

Well, you might have to throw out the letter of James to make this a statement
without qualification.

>    Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on
>    every word that comes from the mouth of God.'" - Math 4:4

Perhaps not enough emphasis is being given to the word "alone".

Shalom,
Richard

    There's been a lot of talk that belief in Jesus is the only thing
    necessary for salvation.  Yet every church I've ever heard of has it's
    set of morals for it's members to live by.  Indeed, Jesus himself
    identified the two greatest commandments to his followers.  These
    commandments call for action beyond simple belief.  And so I ask, is 
    there a "required" moraility for christians to at least aspire to?  Is
    there more to salvation than having a belief?
    
    -dave

    Hi Dave,
    
>    There's been a lot of talk that belief in Jesus is the only thing
>    necessary for salvation.  
    
    This is a great fallacy, Dave, reflecting the disintegration of the
    once-powerful testimony of the Protestant faith.  "Belief" is now as
    little as a mental ascendancy to a propositional truth.  But the
    "belief" of the Bible and the gospels is the work of God by grace in
    regenerating the dead (all of us prior to rebirth) so that we might
    have the ability to glorify, serve, and enjoy Him as a Father now and
    eternally, which is salvation.
    
    >Yet every church I've ever heard of has it's
    >set of morals for it's members to live by.  Indeed, Jesus himself
    >identified the two greatest commandments to his followers.  These
    >commandments call for action beyond simple belief.  
    
    That's right, Dave.  It is not, however, that obeying commandments is
    the source of salvation but a proof of salvation.
    
    >And so I ask, is 
    >there a "required" moraility for christians to at least aspire to?  Is
    >there more to salvation than having a belief?
    
    >-dave
    
    Absolutely, Dave.
    
    jeff

re .53

	Dave,

	The best thing is to go by what Jesus said and the only place
	we can find this is in the gospel accounts. Take John 17:3
	for instance that everlasting life means knowing or taking
	in knowledge of the Only True God and and the one he sent
        forth Jesus Christ. You mentioned the two greatest commandments
	which Jesus confirmed was essential for salvation.

	Conclusive proof that more is needed than just having a belief,
	is found in Jesus' words in the Sermon on the mount, "Not every
	one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom
	of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
	Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied
	in thy name? and in thy name cast out devils? and in thy name done
	many wonderful works? And then I will profess unto them, I never
	knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:21-23 KJV
	Notice, those that call him "Lord, Lord" are very sincere in their
	belief's, they truly belief Jesus is their Lord and even are seen
        performing powerful works. Yet they "work iniquity" or are "workers
	of lawlessness" as another Bible translation put's it, in that they
	are disobedient to "good news" and show little if any regard for
	his Father's will. For this reason he says to them "I never knew you", 
	or he never recognised them as Christians or "footstep followers". 
	They are told to depart from him and therefore receive no blessing 
	but adverse judgment.

	One might question what sort of teachings would come from the "Many
	whom call Lord, Lord and yet are disobedient to his teachings".


	Phil. 

Re  .52

>>  Without them there is no package!
>
>   I say a partial package is no package either.

    The point was that personal salvation cannot have little appeal or
    relevance to the Christian since without it one is not a Christian. It is
    the personal relationship with Christ, AND ONLY THAT, which saves!  This
    is *THE* heart of the gospel.


>>  The rather unkind implication of .21 was that anyone who holds personal
>>  salvation to be important is in it for personal gain.
>
>   And you've never known anyone to fit this condition?  Perhaps you haven't.

    What condition are we talking about?  Someone who wants to become a
    Christian for the sole reason that they may have eternal life?
    The original context was for Christians.  They already have salvation.

    Or are you talking about someone who claims to be a Christian who believes
    that they need to do good works to be saved and are motivated selfishly?
    Certainly people like this are around but their view of salvation is
    flawed from the start since works don't count toward salvation.  Good
    works are a response out of love and obedience to the Lord.

    Acts 5:1-11 documents God's judgement (death) on a husband and wife who
    acted selfishly, ostensibly in His service, and then lied to Him about it.

    It is the "guilt by association" fallacy to assume that personal salvation
    should have little appeal just because some people pursue it out of
    selfishness.


>>  Spiritual needs are more important than physical.
>
>   Well, you might have to throw out the letter of James to make this a
>   statement without qualification.

    Why qualify what is not being said?  I have not said physical needs are
    not important.  But still, faith LEADS TO (precedes) action.  Nor have I
    said that in the process of sharing Christ with someone we don't need to
    help meet their physical needs; quite the contrary.


>>  Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on
>>  every word that comes from the mouth of God.'" - Math 4:4
>
>   Perhaps not enough emphasis is being given to the word "alone".

    Perhaps.  But again, this refers to the physical needs and emphasizes
    that God meets even these.  The passage Jesus' quoting Duet 8:3 shows God
    teaching the Jews to depend on Him totally, even for their food.

    "And He humbled you and let you be hungry, and fed you with manna which
    you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that He might make you
    understand that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by
    everything that proceeds out of the mouth of the LORD."  Duet 8:3

    In this passage it is clear by the restatement of "but man lives by" that
    the word "alone" is of little importance but rather stresses that which
    proceeds from God.

    Michael

Re  .55

>   The best thing is to go by what Jesus said and the only place
>   we can find this is in the gospel accounts. Take John 17:3

    Actually His words are also found in Acts and particularly Revelation (a
    nit perhaps :-).


>   You mentioned the two greatest commandments
>   which Jesus confirmed was essential for salvation.

    No, He doesn't say we must fulfill these to be saved.  He says simply that
    they are the greatest commandments.  It is only after salvation, when the
    TRUE believer receives a new nature (that is of God) that enables the
    proper fulfillment of these commandments.

    Matthew 7:21-23 simply shows that it is not ANY believe that saves but a
    CORRECT belief in who Jesus is, as the one and only divine Son of God who
    paid the penalty for our sin.  Through Jesus' sacrifice, God enabled us to
    truly know and love Him.  And through this love and knowledge we do His
    will as evidence of our salvation; NOT as a requirement of it.

    This brings up why it is so important that we rely on Scripture as God's
    written testimony of who He really is.

    Michael

>>   There's been a lot of talk that belief in Jesus is the only thing
>>   necessary for salvation.
>
>   This is a great fallacy, Dave, reflecting the disintegration of the
>   once-powerful testimony of the Protestant faith.  "Belief" is now as
>   little as a mental ascendancy to a propositional truth.  But the
>   "belief" of the Bible and the gospels is the work of God by grace in
>   regenerating the dead (all of us prior to rebirth) so that we might
>   have the ability to glorify, serve, and enjoy Him as a Father now and
>   eternally, which is salvation.

    For the record Dave, I agree with Jeff on this.  I must confess I can't
    remember if I've always been clear on this in my replies to you.

    Within "belief" is the affirmation of who Jesus is (God, come to us as a
    man), what He did (took on the consequences of our sin), and the trust and
    reliance on this work, OF HIS, to heal (regenerate) our relationship with
    Himself.

    Michael

    So you're saying that by believing, you get salvation and then you act
    morally (because it's natural for you to once redeemed)? 
    
    If this is so, then why bother speaking of "love God and Neighbor" as
    commandments?  They're "givens" for all those who have received true 
    salvation because they're behavior is that of God's nature (true?)
    
    It sort of demotes these 2 "commandments" to "Oh by the way, once 
    redeemed, you'll naturally act in accordance with these two laws".
    
    Or maybe one measures one's ~level~ or ~status~ of one's salvation by 
    observing how closely one seems to naturally adhere to the 2 commandments? 
    If one observes wandering from the commandments, then maybe this is an
    indicator that one's salvation is in peril?
    
    -dave
    
    

    The two commandments are NOT negated by any means.  We are to fulfill
    these commandments not only out of obedience, but by our desire to
    yield our lives to the Father, desire to Love God with whole heart,
    soul, and mind, and to love our neighbor as ourself.
    
    -Jack

re .57

	Michael,

	Some comments regarding your reply. 

>   The best thing is to go by what Jesus said and the only place
>   we can find this is in the gospel accounts. Take John 17:3

;    Actually His words are also found in Acts and particularly Revelation (a
;    nit perhaps :-).

	Thanks for pointing this out, point being that we should look to
	the Bible for his teachings and not human thought.


>   You mentioned the two greatest commandments
>   which Jesus confirmed was essential for salvation.

;    No, He doesn't say we must fulfill these to be saved.  He says simply that
;    they are the greatest commandments.  It is only after salvation, when the
;    TRUE believer receives a new nature (that is of God) that enables the
;    proper fulfillment of these commandments.

	If you are correct in your assumption then why doesn't Jesus grasp the
	opportunity when a person asked "what good must I do to get everlasting
	life?" this was asked a rich young ruler, part of Jesus' response was
	"If, though, you want to enter into life, observe the commandments
	continually." and then goes onto cite 5 of the Ten Commandments (Matthew 
	19:16-24 NWT) Now whom should one listen to?, for Jesus left this person
	in no doubt what was required of him, the account goes on to show that
	he would have to exercise faith in selling his belongings and follow
	Jesus. 

;    Matthew 7:21-23 simply shows that it is not ANY believe that saves but a
;    CORRECT belief in who Jesus is, as the one and only divine Son of God who
;    paid the penalty for our sin.  Through Jesus' sacrifice, God enabled us to
;    truly know and love Him.  And through this love and knowledge we do His
;    will as evidence of our salvation; NOT as a requirement of it.

	And yet he clearly states "but the one doing will of my father who is in
	the heavens will." (verse 21). It is not as though one can obtain ones
	own righteous standing, this is impossible. However, salvation is a free
	gift to those that exercise faith in God and Jesus. By doing God's will
	one shows that ones faith is alive (James 2:26) and has showed by Jesus'
	illustration of the "cramped and narrow road", the course a Chistian 
	should take as a footstep follower, eternal salvation is not instantaneous 
	but they have to carry along that route for it leads to eternal life. If 
	they were to change their minds after a while and take the broad road,
	where would they end up? (Matthew 7:13,14). The wonderful thing about
	Jesus' illustrations is they enable all to grasp his teaching and have
	understanding. 

;    This brings up why it is so important that we rely on Scripture as God's
;    written testimony of who He really is.

	Totally agree but for different reasons, you see the fallen angels truly
	know who Almighty God and Jesus are. They believe in God. However they
	will receive adverse judgment, so more is required than just belief
	(Matthew 8:29). As another Bible translates John 3:16 NWT "For God loved
	the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that
	everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting
	life." . As a cross reference to "excerising faith" look at John 1:12, 
	John 12:44, Ephesians 4:5, Philippians 1:29 & 2 Timothy 3:15. Now though
	you may not take into account the NWT, do you agree that one needs faith
	to be saved?.

	Just to clarify, I'm not saying that accurate knowledge of God and his Son
	or as you put it "CORRECT belief" is not important. The trouble is such
	knowledge can remain head knowledge and will be of no benefit to the
	person if they don't sound it down into their figurative hearts by 
	exercising faith. And the bible clearly states "Every way of a man is
	upright in his own eyes, but Jehovah is making an estimate of hearts."
	Proverbs 21:2 NWT and "I, Jehovah, am searching the heart, examining the
	kidneys, even to give to each one according to his ways, according to the
	fruitage of his dealings." Jeremiah 17:10 NWT. So the Bible indicates
	that judgment will be based on ones heart condition. For example, how
	will God judge a person, who has the "CORRECT belief" but their heart
	is bad to its core?. We know by looking at Jesus' dealings with the
	religious leaders of that time, whom were well versed in the Law and
	the scriptures but their hearts were far removed from God.  
	 
	Phil.

>    So you're saying that by believing, you get salvation and then you act
>    morally (because it's natural for you to once redeemed)? 

First of all, Dave, the presumption concerning belief is that one has heard
the biblical gospel preached and by God's graceful act in regeneration 
understands their status as a sinner in a very specific fashion in relation
to God's holiness and requirements (commandments) for humanity as well as 
    understands God's provision, that is Jesus Christ.  The hearer is then 
    *able* to repent and have faith in that provision and experiences 
    salvation really and actually.
The believer, upon rebirth, has a new nature that wants to obey God and His
commandments and God works in the life of the believer to bring them ever
closer to Christ's likeness in terms of thoughts, attitudes, behaviors, and 
deeds through the directive of His Word primarily, the Bible.  The believer is 
    not yet perfect and struggles with sin but enjoys over time a greater and 
    greater victory as the new nature is nurtured and strengthened by Christ's 
    sanctifying work and the believers efforts.
    
    >If this is so, then why bother speaking of "love God and Neighbor" as
    >commandments?  They're "givens" for all those who have received true 
    >salvation because they're behavior is that of God's nature (true?)

Because God has chosen to use means, like commandments, for example, to
instruct and direct.  The believer's new nature is in a vessel, our bodies,
which God has also made, with its senses and desires and abilities.  He 
continues to work through our bodies and spirits to effect the changes in
us.
    
   > It sort of demotes these 2 "commandments" to "Oh by the way, once 
   > redeemed, you'll naturally act in accordance with these two laws".

No, not at all.  It constantly reminds the believer, who is still prone
to sin and old habits and who is constantly confronted by unbelief in
those around him as well as the incredible oppression of the world system
s/he lives in, what our obligation is and what God wants from us.  Also,
these commands are used by God to demonstrate to the unbeliever in a very
clear fashion what God's requirements are and ultimately how the unbeliever
has failed to meet them, confronting the unbeliever with the judgement that
is to come for those who have sinned against God.
    
    >Or maybe one measures one's ~level~ or ~status~ of one's salvation by 
    >observing how closely one seems to naturally adhere to the 2 commandments? 
    >If one observes wandering from the commandments, then maybe this is an
    >indicator that one's salvation is in peril?
    
    >-dave

The born again believer is trusting God for salvation in the work of Jesus
Christ and does not look to laws to determine his status.  However, the
level of one's obedience to God's commandments is a reflection of the
maturity and sanctity of the believer.

The truly saved do not depart from God for they are kept by Him, by His
power, not their own.  However, we are to work out our salvation in fear
and trembling. So the commandments you mentioned as well as the many other
directives in Scripture are constant reminders and motivators to the believer
to seek God's grace, to mortify the flesh, and to obey God.  

    How will you stand, Dave, when the Lord Jesus judges your life against
    His holy commandments?  Please seek repentence and faith, Dave!!  The
    means are within your reach!
    
jeff    
    

Re  .59

>   you get salvation and then you act
>   morally (because it's natural for you to once redeemed)?

    Salvation is the creation of a new spiritual relationship with God.  It is
    a "new birth".  When one is "born again" one begins, as in life, as an
    infant.  It is only the beginning of the process of becomming like Jesus.
    You still grow and mature, but, this is not for or toward salvation
    (which comes first).

    Michael

Re .62 (Jeff)

>  How will you stand, Dave, when the Lord Jesus judges your life against
>  His holy commandments?  Please seek repentence and faith, Dave!!  The
>  means are within your reach!

Don't forget Jeff that I'm still in the space of wondering whether or not
there's even a God (as defined by christianity).  Asking me how I will
stand when being judged by Jesus would be like someone asking you how
you'll stand when you die and go before Odin in Valhalla.  And I wouldn't
expect that threatening you with Norse Hell (whatever that is) would make 
much of an impression.

>The born again believer is trusting God for salvation in the work of Jesus
>Christ and does not look to laws to determine his status.  

So does adherance to the laws play a role in salvation or not?  Is it one's
actions that count, one's intentions or simply one's acceptance that the
laws are in accordance to God's wishes (without intending or acting in
accordance to them)?  
    
>However, the
>level of one's obedience to God's commandments is a reflection of the
>maturity and sanctity of the believer.

Would you say that the different levels of maturity and sanctitiy are an
indication on how well anchored someone's salvation is?

>The truly saved do not depart from God for they are kept by Him, by His
>power, not their own.

Regardless of the believer's actions? Intentions? Understanding?

>However, we are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

Why bother to do this if you're salvation is kept by God?  Is one's
salvation a state that can change with time?  I.e. Born a sinner, "born
again" and saved, turned evil later on and lost salvation, etc... 


-dave

Hi Dave,

>>Re .62 (Jeff)

>  How will you stand, Dave, when the Lord Jesus judges your life against
>  His holy commandments?  Please seek repentence and faith, Dave!!  The
>  means are within your reach!

>>Don't forget Jeff that I'm still in the space of wondering whether or not
>>there's even a God (as defined by christianity).  Asking me how I will
>>stand when being judged by Jesus would be like someone asking you how
>>you'll stand when you die and go before Odin in Valhalla.  And I wouldn't
>>expect that threatening you with Norse Hell (whatever that is) would make 
>>much of an impression.

I understand that you are unbelieving, Dave.  But the Bible makes it clear
that this is a result of self-deception and blindness for which you are
culpable.  We are made in the image of God and that image is a part of us.  We
cannot escape the "internal" witness that He is nor can we escape the external
witness that He is.

>The born again believer is trusting God for salvation in the work of Jesus
>Christ and does not look to laws to determine his status.  

>So does adherance to the laws play a role in salvation or not?  

No, it does not.  Are God's laws and directives essential for the believers
maturity and sanctity - yes.  

>Is it one's actions that count, one's intentions or simply one's acceptance 
>that the laws are in accordance to God's wishes (without intending or acting in
>accordance to them)?  

The laws are a pointer to God in Jesus Christ for the unbeliever.  The laws
are a means of sanctification for the believer.  But Christ is the object
of faith between, which is salvation.
    
>However, the
>level of one's obedience to God's commandments is a reflection of the
>maturity and sanctity of the believer.

>>Would you say that the different levels of maturity and sanctitiy are an
>>indication on how well anchored someone's salvation is?

No.  True salvation is anchored in Christ, not in the human personality.

>The truly saved do not depart from God for they are kept by Him, by His
>power, not their own.

>>Regardless of the believer's actions? Intentions? Understanding?

That's right - if they are really saved.

>However, we are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

>>Why bother to do this if you're salvation is kept by God?  

Because He commands it!  And I want to obey Him!

>>Is one's
>>salvation a state that can change with time?  I.e. Born a sinner, "born
>>again" and saved, turned evil later on and lost salvation, etc... 

No, not according to the Bible.  He who is saved by God's grace, a free
gift, can do nothing to enhance or detract from that salvation which is
outside himself.

>>-dave

jeff

    Re .61

    Hi Phil,

    Let me preface this by saying that we seem to agree that faith is required
    for salvation.  I wasn't clear in my statement "it is not ANY believe that
    saves but a CORRECT belief in who Jesus is".  The word belief is meant to
    encompass a saving faith in the work of the cross.  I apologize for being
    vague since you spent a fair amount of your response RIGHTLY attacking the
    notion that head knowledge is enough for salvation (ref .58).

    However I believe we disagree in the nature of that faith; salvation by
    grace through faith in the one and only Son of God (God incarnate) who
    paid the FULL penalty for ALL our sin on the cross.  That this work of His
    is finished and complete.


>   If you are correct in your assumption then why doesn't Jesus grasp the
>   opportunity when a person asked "what good must I do to get everlasting
>   life?" this was asked a rich young ruler, part of Jesus' response was
>   "If, though, you want to enter into life, observe the commandments
>   continually." and then goes onto cite 5 of the Ten Commandments
>   (Matthew 19:16-24 NWT)

    In order to answer this we need to review exactly what is said:

    Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do
    to get eternal life?" "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus
    replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey
    the commandments." "Which ones?" the man inquired.  Jesus replied, "Do not
    murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony,
    honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself."
    (Matthew 19:16-19 NIV)

    Notice Jesus firsts ask a question back "Why do you ask me about what is
    good?".  The clear implication here is that doing good is not the way the
    man will be able to have eternal life.  He goes on to say that only One
    (God=>Himself) is good.  Since only One is good no one else is able to 
    get eternal life on that basis.  This sets the context for the response.

    He then elaborates on what one has to do to have eternal life based on the
    path of "good works".

    "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?" Jesus
    answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give
    to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
    When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great
    wealth.  (Matthew 19:20-22 NIV)

    Notice that the result of selling his possessions is not stated as eternal
    life but as treasure in heaven.  Further, the emphasis here is in
    following Jesus.  Jesus knew this man's weakness.  His wealth was his God
    or at least more important to him than God.  It is in failing to follow
    Jesus that the man failed.  As a true follower of Christ he would have
    been given the faith and will to obey.

    Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a
    rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.  Again I tell you, it is easier
    for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter
    the kingdom of God." (Matthew 19:23-24 NIV)

    Rich men typically don't see their need to follow Christ.  On the surface
    they feel that they have all they could want.  They love money more than
    the Lord.

    When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked,
    "Who then can be saved?" Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is
    impossible, but with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:25-26 NIV)

    You left these two passages out of your reference yet they are very
    important in this whole story.  Here is where Jesus tells them that while
    it is impossible for man to stand righteous before God (and thus get
    eternal life) through his own actions, God can, by grace, impart His
    righteousness to us.  Because ALL our unrighteousness was nailed to the
    cross with Christ.

    That's all I have time for right now.  More later (I hope).

    Michael

    
    I think it is also very important to note that when the Ruler asked
    Christ what he must do to be saved, Christ provided an incomplete list
    of the total commandments.  If Christ's point was that the man could
    somehow gain eternal life via following the commandments wouldn't he
    have listed them all?  
    
    jeff

    Yes, good point Jeff!

    Yes...good point indeed!

Hear, hear, I third the good point Jeff makes!

8*)

The commandments missing seem to be the God<->Man relationship commandments
while the emphasis was clearly placed on the man<->man relationship.  And
at that, the last (love neighbor as self) really covers the previous 4.

The man asked "What must "I" do...".  Maybe Jesus had some insight into
this particular man's situation, a situation where the God<->Man
relationship commandments did not need reinforcement.  Thus, they might
have been ommitted in this personal conversation between Jesus and this
man.

The man goes on to say that he's kept all these commandments.  But has he?
If he truely loved his neighbor, would he be a rich man while they were
not?  Perhaps Jesus saw this flaw and pointed out the remedy... "sell all 
that you have, etc... ".

Micheal, you said that this man's wealth was more important to him than
God.  If this were the case, I'd have expected Jesus to cite other
commandments (thou shalt not have strange gods ($$) before me).  Perhaps
this man's love of neighbor was a bit lacking insofar as he was hanging
onto the cash and not helping his neighbors with it.  I think this man
would have readily followed and believed in Jesus (as long as he could have 
retained his money).  But the precondition of selling all that he had was
just too much for him to handle.

It's interesting how Jesus sequenced the thing(s) that he must do...
"sell all that you have, give it to the poor ***THEN*** follow me".
The abandonment of the money might be interpreted as a precondition for
following Jesus. (again, emphasis on the word "THEN")

my $0.02

-dave



 

re .67,.68,.69,.70


 Jeff,

 But that wasn't the point being made, it was made clear that it is
 impossible to gain salvation on ones own merit.

 The commands were "you must not commit murder, You must not commit
 adultery, You must not steal, You must not bear false witness, Honor
 your father and your mother, and, You must love your neighbour as
 yourself." Matthew 19:18b-19 NWT.

 The ruler was told to keep these continually by Jesus. So the point
 being made is that one must show an inclination towards obedience
 to God to receive his blessings, be it the free gift of eternal life
 or being called a friend. Those that practice willful disobedience
 will NOT receive God blessing. The apostle Paul made this point
 to the Corinthian congregration, whom had been condoning immoral
 behaviour in that congregation. You all know it, however it is worth
 reiterating "What! Do YOU now know that unrighteous persons will
 not inherit God's kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators,
 nor idolators, nor adulterers, not men kept for unnatural purposes,
 nor men who lie with men, nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor
 drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God's
 kingdom. And yet this was what some of YOU were. But YOU have been
 washed clean, but YOU have been sanctified, but YOU have been
 declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with
 the spirit of our God." 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 NWT.

 For this reason I personally detest the OSAS doctrine, for persons
 are told is doesn't matter what you do once you believe Jesus is
 your Lord then your saved. Yet Paul says "Do not be misled". If 
 a person is willfully disobedient to God by flaunting against his
 moral standard they will not receive his blessing even the free
 gift of life. Now I have heard it said, that professing Christians 
 who do such things were not a Christian in the first place. But
 the Bible does mention certain characters who diverted from the
 way, atleast one appears to be mentioned as being reinstated 
 whereas others weren't. So a major and vital part of the great 
 commision is "teaching them to observe all the things I have 
 commanded YOU" Matthew 28:20a NWT How many professing Christians 
 are there that actually do this?

 Phil.

  Z   For this reason I personally detest the OSAS doctrine, for persons
  Z   are told is doesn't matter what you do once you believe Jesus is
  Z   your Lord then your saved.
    
    Phil...this is not by any means a tenet of the OSAS doctrine. 
    Romans 6: "For what shall we say then, shall we continue to sin that
    grace may abound?  God forbid, for how can we who are dead to sin
    continue therein?"  A rhetorical question which calls for the obvious
    answer.  
    
    There are many parellels in scripture between God's relationship not
    only with the church, but with the nation of Israel.  Israel has become
    a harlot in the book of Hosea...yet God continually called them to
    repentence.  God also promised in the Psalms that he would fulfill his
    covenants and promises through Israel...and never blotted them out.
    If the edict of divorce, as Jesus said, was because of the hardness of
    heart in man, then how can God institute the very thing he spoke
    against...to the bride of the lamb?  
    
    Also, do you believe we are sealed with the mark of ownership as
    proclaimed in Ephesians 1:13?   
    
    -Jack

 Hi Phil,
    
> Jeff,

> But that wasn't the point being made, it was made clear that it is
> impossible to gain salvation on ones own merit.
    
    It is a reinforcement of the point that was made.

 > The ruler was told to keep these continually by Jesus. So the point
 >being made is that one must show an inclination towards obedience
 >to God to receive his blessings, be it the free gift of eternal life
 >or being called a friend. 
    
    Jesus was teaching publicly, not privately.  And the contextual point
    is that even one who observed the Law as it was understood at that
    time was not able to be saved.  Only God can save man.  The Law never
    did save contrary to the common belief of Jesus's day.  
    
    I reject completely your assertion that man can ever be inclined to
    obedience prior to rebirth. The Bible makes it quite clear that
    unbelieving man can only be inclined to disobedience.
    
> For this reason I personally detest the OSAS doctrine, for persons
> are told is doesn't matter what you do once you believe Jesus is
> your Lord then your saved. 
    
    Your "reason" cannot generally be acknowledged as true since Jack
    has shown one clear biblical teaching on this subject. But you being
    an "outsider" it is one of those common stereotypical understandings.
    Your detestation of God's grace is the detestation of God's Word itself 
    regardless of how you choose to view it.  
     
    jeff

>The Bible makes it quite clear that
>    unbelieving man can only be inclined to disobedience.

Meaning what?  That there's no such thing as an unbeliever with righteous
inclinations?  Of any kind?

    Hi Dave,
    
>The Bible makes it quite clear that
>    unbelieving man can only be inclined to disobedience.

>>Meaning what?  
    
    That your natural tendency is to disregard God's commandments and to
    serve yourself. 
    
    jeff

    I know of many unbelievers who have a strong natural tendency to obey 
    many of the commandments.  They're inclined NOT to murder, rape, steal, 
    etc... . In fact, you're conversing with such a person right now.  
    
    The Judeao-Christian tradition does not have the market cornered on ethical 
    behavior.  The overlap between the Judeao-Christian ethic and that of other
    religions or belief systems is significant.  I see exceptions to...
    
    "...unbelieving man can only be inclined to disobedience."
    
    ... all the time.
    
    Either that or our definitions of "unbelievers" may not be in sync.
    By that I'm implying that, if the Bible is stating a fact, many so-
    called "unbelievers" are in fact "believers" if the proper definition
    for "believer" is used.
    
    -dave
    

    David:
    
    Remember, the key here is that as Jeremiah the Prophet spoke, "For the
    heart of man evil and above all things desparately wicked.  Who can
    know it?"  I think the problem here is that we see ourselves through
    our own filters.  
    
    I know this is a crude analogy but as an example, a cow can live in the
    cleanest of conditions.  Clean, freshly painted barn with straw changed
    every day.  In this context, the farmer sees the animals as being in a
    clean environment.  Try now setting up the cows pen in your living
    room.  Now we see the cow as a smelly animal outside of its domain.
    
    God sees us as His creation, and he called Adam and Eve good.  Once we
    fell into sin, we became the epitomy of lawlessness.  Therefore, a
    nonbeliever is inclined to lawlessness, simply because of our nature
    that we have.  Once regenerated, even in our lawlessness, we become as
    a chaste bride.  Why?  Because the righteousness of Jesus Christ has
    been bestowed upon us.
    
    -Jack

    
    Re .78 (Jack)
    
    I just have a hard time swallowing the notion that only Christians can 
    act morally or be so inclined.  And that's the way I interpreted that 
    passage.  To me, it seems erroneous to claim that an unbeliever like 
    Gandhi could only be inclined to disobey the commandment "Thou Shall Not 
    Kill".
    
    If you want to know what I really think, and I realize that I'm out of
    the mainstream in this conference in this regard, I think that God is
    much more accepting than what one is led to believe in the Bible.  I
    think he's got a place in heaven for a gem like Gandhi.  But all
    that's between God and Gandhi and none of our business I suppose.  
    
    -dave
    
    

    Dave, I understand your point.  But like you said, we don't really know
    the heart of Ghandi or anybody else for that matter.  We only know that
    God has revealed our nature to us...and we have to be objective in
    regard to what has been foretold.
    
 Z   I just have a hard time swallowing the notion that only Christians can 
 Z   act morally or be so inclined.
    
    My understanding leads me to believe Dave, that Christians still have
    to wrestle with their sin nature, they are simply not condemned by it. 
    Also, any goodness that comes from within a Christian is the Spirit of
    God within a believer.  So think of it this way...ANY goodness we have
    was charitably given to us!  
    
    -Jack

    .80  A nit: It's spelled Gandhi.  I try to overlook misspellings,
    except when it's somebody's name.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

RE .74

Hi Jeff,

;    I reject completely your assertion that man can ever be inclined to
;    obedience prior to rebirth. The Bible makes it quite clear that
;    unbelieving man can only be inclined to disobedience.

You know we have all been given a conscience, what about God's faithful
servant Joseph. Though he hadn't been given the Law he knew that it
was wrong to act immorally with Potiphar's wife. How was his heart
inclined?. What about the great cloud of witnesses mentioned in
Hebrews 11 ?. 

To sin, gives the understanding of "to miss" the mark as to perfect 
obedience. Even so, if such examples as listed in Hebrews 11 were not 
*workers* of lawlessness, rather they repented put their trust in God 
and showed obedience to God and for this reason they were spoken of as 
faithful. Granted some did commit gross sin, however they showed 
repentent hearts and thus still received of God's mercy and blessing.

Further, Job was a real person who showed integrity towards God.

Even, imperfect humans can fulfill Proverbs 27:11 NWT "Be wise, my son,
and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is 
taunting me." Job certainly proved Satan a liar and so can we.


Phil.

re .73

Hi Jack,

;    Phil...this is not by any means a tenet of the OSAS doctrine. 
;    Romans 6: "For what shall we say then, shall we continue to sin that
;    grace may abound?  God forbid, for how can we who are dead to sin
;    continue therein?"  A rhetorical question which calls for the obvious
;    answer.

Sorry, looks like I don't understand the OSAS doctrine. So you believe that 
those who willfully practice sin will be destroyed be they those who have 
led a Christian course or not? (compare Jude 3-5, if Christians can't slip 
up then the warning would be meaningless in other words they would need to
stay awake spiritually speaking).   
    
The Bible points to 144 Thousand being "sealed" (Revelation 14:1).
I can't speak for you, but I am sure that I am not "sealed". Rather
I look forward as a prospective subject of those who have been
"sealed" (campare Revelation 5:9,10) and the blessings that would
come from such a government.

;There are many parellels in scripture between God's relationship not
;only with the church, but with the nation of Israel.  Israel has become
;a harlot in the book of Hosea...yet God continually called them to
;repentence.  God also promised in the Psalms that he would fulfill his
;covenants and promises through Israel...and never blotted them out.
;If the edict of divorce, as Jesus said, was because of the hardness of
;heart in man, then how can God institute the very thing he spoke
;against...to the bride of the lamb?

Interesting, does this mean that you believe God will have two wives
or just one?. Not that I agree with what your saying, as I believe the 
nation of Israel has been abandoned (Matthew 23:38) and that Abraham's 
promise will be fullfilled through Jesus Christ, "Now the promises were 
spoken to Abraham and to his seed. It says, not: 'And to seeds," as in 
the case of many such, but as in the case of one: 'And to your seed,' 
who is Christ.". Not that the way is not open to Jews, but it would have 
to be through God's anointed One (John 11:25, also compare John 8:44 were
Jesus tells certain Jews that their father is Satan).


Phil.

re .82

Jeff,

Sorry but I made a slight mistake in my reply...

"Even so, if such examples as listed in Hebrews 11 were not
*workers* of lawlessness," should read "Even so, such examples 
as listed were not *workers* of lawlessness,".


Phil.