Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

        http://www.sojourners.com/sojourners/

        Sojourners Magazine Online

        From the mission statement:

        Sojourners is more than a magazine. It represents a
        grassroots network for personal, community, and political
        transformation. Rooted in the solid ground of the prophetic
        biblical tradition, Sojourners brings together diverse people
        for reflection and action. We offer old truths and new
        visions for changing times. 

        Sojourners is a progressive Christian voice with an
        alternative vision for both the church and society: beyond
        both the religious right and the secular left beyond empty
        piety and rootless activism beyond individualistic and
        ideological religion beyond old dogmas and new age beyond the
        false choices and social walls that divide us from one
        another. 

        We preach not political correctness, but compassion,
        community, and commitment. We refuse to separate personal
        faith from social justice, prayer from peacemaking,
        contemplation from action, or spirituality from politics. And
        we passionately believe in the power of hope. 

        Sojourners includes Evangelicals, Catholics, Pentecostals,
        and Protestants; liberals and conservatives; blacks, whites,
        Latinos, and Asians; women and men; young and old. We are
        Christians who want to follow Jesus, but who also sojourn
        with others in different faith traditions and all those who
        are on a spiritual journey. We reach into traditional
        churches but also out to those who can't fit into them.
        Together, we seek to discover the intersection of faith,
        politics, and culture. 

        We invite you not only to read, but to join, connect, and
        act. Welcome to the community. 

	The schedule for next week (Palm Sunday to Easter):

	http://www.ccn.cs.dal.ca/~ai072/holy_week.html

    
    http://www.opc.org
    
    The Web page for the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.
    
    

        For those that want to keep up to date on the building of the 3rd
        Temple, see the following Web site:
    
        http://www.actcom.co.il/jerusalem/
        http://www.actcom.co.il/jerusalem/temple.htm

        Browsing the web site of the Monastery of Christ in the
        Desert was a special treat this past Sunday morning:

        	http://www.christdesert.org/pax.html

        I found the following quite interesting:

        "For over 1,500 years monks have combined words with art to
        produce publications of subtle beauty. Today, at the
        Monastery of Christ in the Desert, we bring this tradition to
        the World Wide Web: and we offer this tradition to you. We
        can help you design and publish web pages that possess
        uncommonly high artistic and editorial beauty. Visit our
        scriptorium for more information."

        Bob

| <<< Note 1234.7 by PHXSS1::HEISER "R.I.O.T." >>>

| http://www.ultranet.com/~comments/ 

	Gee.... I tried to go there and it locked up my version of netscape!
I'm being seious here. I see this real pretty green background, but that's it.
Nothing else. And now it won't let me do anything. :-)



Glen

    I just (re)connected with no problem.

    Hmmm..

    It's a web page dedicated to tearing down the Jehovah's Witnesses.

    Some people in this file think such single minded negativity isn't
    "mean-spirited."

    Go figure.
    
    Tom

RE .15

Tom,

;    It's a web page dedicated to tearing down the Jehovah's Witnesses.

I thought as much, thank you for the warning.

Phil.

    Actually it's a ministry by ex-Witnesses, who are now Christians, to
    current Witnesses.

	Thanks for clarifying that, Mike. But essentially it says the same
thing that Tom said. 


Glen

  Z  Some people in this file think such single minded negativity isn't
  Z      "mean-spirited."
    
    Tom:
    
    Do you have any conception that there are epistles and letters written
    in scripture that malign a specific person or faith statement?
    
    Your wording here indicates to me that you have no conception of the
    spiritual battle that is going on today.
    
    TRUTH MUST TRANSCEND ALL THINGS!
    
    -Jack

    A web sight dedicated to tearing something down is mean-spirited,
    no matter how self-righteous you may feel about it.

>    Your wording here indicates to me that you have no conception of the
>    spiritual battle that is going on today.

    Did it ever occur to you that you may be the only one fighting?
    May peace be with you.
    
>    TRUTH MUST TRANSCEND ALL THINGS!

    Are you changing your position now and saying that God must be
    subject to truth?

    Tom

 Z       A web sight dedicated to tearing something down is mean-spirited,
 Z       no matter how self-righteous you may feel about it.
    
    Tom, just out of curiosity, if the website had been dedicated to
    ministering to ex members of the Jonestown Church in Guiana, would you
    consider this mean spirited?  How about to members of the Unification
    Church or any church that preaches another Jesus...would you consider
    this meanspirited or informative?  
    
    Tom, you are confusing love for political correctness.  There are many
    groups that you in your mind would not consider expedient to society.
    It is your right, nay, your responsibility to try and seer the
    conscience of society into changing their ideologies!  Cease the
    moment...just as John the Baptist once did...just as Paul did.  
    
    The sin of omission is just as bad as the sin of commission.
    
    
  ZZ      Did it ever occur to you that you may be the only one fighting?
  ZZ      May peace be with you.
    
    This would indeed be very sad Tom.  We are commissioned to take upon
    ourselves the whole armour of God.  This means, Tom, that there is a
    spiritual battle going on today.  We are to be alert and awake,
    prepared for spiritual warfare at all times.  So are you alert and
    awake, or are you as the apostles were on the Mount of Olives...where
    the spirit is willing and the flesh is weak!??
    
    ZZ    >    TRUTH MUST TRANSCEND ALL THINGS!
    
    ZZ    Are you changing your position now and saying that God must be
    ZZ    subject to truth?
    
    No...never impled that at all!
    
    -Jack

>    Tom, just out of curiosity, if the website had been dedicated to
>    ministering to ex members of the Jonestown Church in Guiana, would you
>    consider this mean spirited?  How about to members of the Unification
>    Church or any church that preaches another Jesus...would you consider
>    this meanspirited or informative?  

    The websight isn't "ministering" to anyone.  It's tearing down.
    It's putting down.  It's slandering.  This isn't helping anyone
    except in a rigid "religiously correct" manner.
    
>    Tom, you are confusing love for political correctness.

    Since when have the Witnesses been "politically correct?"

>    There are many
>    groups that you in your mind would not consider expedient to society.
>    It is your right, nay, your responsibility to try and seer the
>    conscience of society into changing their ideologies!  Cease the

    "NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!"  And you accuse me of
    pandering to "political correctness"?!  Yours is a recipe for
    attrocities, mine for tollerance.
        
    
>    This would indeed be very sad Tom.  We are commissioned to take upon
>    ourselves the whole armour of God.  This means, Tom, that there is a
>    spiritual battle going on today.  We are to be alert and awake,
>    prepared for spiritual warfare at all times.  So are you alert and

    Onward Christian soldiers...  Nuke 'em all and let God sort 'em out.

    Stop shooting from the hip.  The collateral damage is appauling.

>    awake, or are you as the apostles were on the Mount of Olives...where
>    the spirit is willing and the flesh is weak!??

    Oh boy, are *you* out of context.
    
>    ZZ    >    TRUTH MUST TRANSCEND ALL THINGS!
>    
>    ZZ    Are you changing your position now and saying that God must be
>    ZZ    subject to truth?
>    
>    No...never impled that at all!

    Except when it suites you.

    Tom

    Tom:
    
    Apparently you and I are on different channels.  It is when I see you
    shrieking out words like tolerance, atrocities, and the like that make
    it apparent we aren't connecting.
    
    Just one more thing...why do you suppose it is that all the prophets of
    God died martyrs deaths...not to mention each of the apostles and
    countless Christians?  Mull over that for awhile then ask yourself if
    you are confusing tolerance for conformity.
    
    -Jack

    
   > Do you have any conception that there are epistles and letters written   
   >  in scripture that malign a specific person or faith statement?

    The inference here is that since some of the biblical contributors
    "malign a specific person or faith statement," *any* malevolent, dare I
    say vulgar, condemnation of another's faith by a self-appointed
    spokesman for God, carries the same authority of Saint Paul.

    This is absurd.

    Eric

    
    > Just one more thing...why do you suppose it is that all the prophets of   
    > God died martyrs deaths...not to mention each of the apostles and   
    > countless Christians?  Mull over that for awhile then ask yourself if   
    > you are confusing tolerance for conformity.

    So you're not a true disciple of Christ unless you are a martyr? To get
    along with other's is in some way to compromise one's piety? 

    Actually, I think you've hit on something here. Not that you must die a
    martyr's death to be a good Christian, but that many Christians seem to
    cloak themselves as victims of religious persecution whenever some
    other group (general public?) doesn't want to do things their way. This
    fixation on victimization seems to give them a sense of validation.

    Eric

re Note 1234.23 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN:

>     Just one more thing...why do you suppose it is that all the prophets of
>     God died martyrs deaths...not to mention each of the apostles and
>     countless Christians?  Mull over that for awhile then ask yourself if
>     you are confusing tolerance for conformity.

        Somehow, in the context of "christian" opposition to the
        Jehovah's Witnesses, it is bordering on the absurd to say
        this.

        Since when has a single orthodox christian died a martyr's
        death at the hand of a small pacifist sect?

        Bob

>    Apparently you and I are on different channels.  It is when I see you
>    shrieking out words like tolerance, atrocities, and the like that make
>    it apparent we aren't connecting.

    Either that or you don't understand the danger in what you're saying.

    Are you saying that tolerance toward those who disagree with you is 
    not acceptable, but that this attitude cannot possibly bring about
    atrocities?
    
>    Just one more thing...why do you suppose it is that all the prophets of
>    God died martyrs deaths...not to mention each of the apostles and
>    countless Christians?  Mull over that for awhile then ask yourself if
>    you are confusing tolerance for conformity.

    But your comments in previous notes in this string sound like you're 
    anxious to make the Witnesses martyrs.

    I am repulsed by such an idea, especially from someone who
    calls himself a christian.

    Tom

   Z    But your comments in previous notes in this string sound like you're 
   Z     anxious to make the Witnesses martyrs.
    
   Z     I am repulsed by such an idea, especially from someone who
   Z     calls himself a christian.
    
    And you Tom, are not parsing what I'm saying...perhaps my fault. 
    Martyrdom was brought up to point out to you that the old prophets and
    apostles were looked upon as troublemakers, non conformists, and non
    inclusionary.  I do NOT have a martyr complex for myself...I make no
    claim of that.  I do find however your shrieking of my non inclusive
    attitude to be much the same response given to John the Baptist and
    others.  Remember, John the Baptist was imprisoned for his non
    inclusive attitude.  He told Herod it is not lawful to have his
    brothers wife.
    
    As far as the webpage goes, I would not find this any more offensive
    than I do an organization like fundamentalist anonymous.  We are called
    as believers to test the spirits to see if they measure up to biblical
    principles.  No secret Tom, I don't believe the Watchtower society
    measures up.  This isn't meant to offend...it is meant to challenge the
    faith of another...which is healthy.  If you as a fellow believer find
    this to be mean spirited, then I would question how meanspiritedness
    measures up to the core of your beliefs.  Are you willing to drink of
    the cup Jesus drank from???  Or are you in the business of just getting
    alone regardless of what principles you may have to forego?  
    
    -Jack

    So, what *is* the website for Fundamentalists Anonymous?
    
    Richard
    

| <<< Note 1234.29 by CSC32::J_CHRISTIE "Mirthful Mystic" >>>

| So, what *is* the website for Fundamentalists Anonymous?

	For
	Fundamentalist
	Anonymous



		or FFA  for short! :-)

>   Z    But your comments in previous notes in this string sound like you're 
>   Z     anxious to make the Witnesses martyrs.
>    
>   Z     I am repulsed by such an idea, especially from someone who
>   Z     calls himself a christian.
>    
>    And you Tom, are not parsing what I'm saying...perhaps my fault. 
>    Martyrdom was brought up to point out to you that the old prophets and
>    apostles were looked upon as troublemakers, non conformists, and non
>    inclusionary.  I do NOT have a martyr complex for myself...I make no
>    claim of that.  I do find however your shrieking of my non inclusive
>    attitude to be much the same response given to John the Baptist and
>    others.  Remember, John the Baptist was imprisoned for his non
>    inclusive attitude.  He told Herod it is not lawful to have his
>    brothers wife.

    I'm not talking about whether or not we should be inclusive.  I'm
    simply saying that the webpage is mean spirited and that your talk
    about "seering" it brings up images of the Spanish Inquisition.

    I have no problem with you thinking of yourself as a martyr.  It's
    when it seems you are intent to make someone else a martyr that makes
    me sick.
    
>    As far as the webpage goes, I would not find this any more offensive
>    than I do an organization like fundamentalist anonymous.  

    You may be right.  I haven't seen their webpage, if they have one.

>    We are called
>    as believers to test the spirits to see if they measure up to biblical
>    principles.  No secret Tom, I don't believe the Watchtower society
>    measures up.  This isn't meant to offend...it is meant to challenge the
>    faith of another...which is healthy.

    Unless you get nasty about it.

>    If you as a fellow believer find
>    this to be mean spirited, then I would question how meanspiritedness
>    measures up to the core of your beliefs.  

    Once again, it depends on how it's done.

>    Are you willing to drink of the cup Jesus drank from???  

    Yes.  I try to love others as myself.  And I don't require
    that they pass a litmus test first.  Jesus loved those who
    persecuted Him, not just those who professed to believe the
    right things.

>    Or are you in the business of just getting
>    alone regardless of what principles you may have to forego?  

    Don't you get it?  Christianity isn't mainly about theological
    purity.  It's about loving your fellow human.  Not just the
    "right" humans.
    
    I don't agree with the Witnesses on many counts.  But I believe 
    they have a right to live the way they think they must.  That is
    without harrassment and without someone to constantly trying to 
    "seer their conscience."

    I'm not asking you to accept them into your church.  But if you
    don't think they have a right to be who they are then kindly get
    out of my country.

    Tom

Jack,

I think Tom is addressing the *total* negativity of the website.
Yes, as you point out John the Baptist highlighted the unlawful
marriage of Herod. But in turn John didn't spend all his time
pointing out Herod's many faults. John was mainly respected for 
his role of prophet and leading others to repentance and the 
positive message that he had. You point out that the epistles
contain negative comments against others, but who would even
consider them if all they ever contained were negatives comments?.

As the apostle Paul put it "If I speak in the tongues of men and
of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging
cymbal." 1 Corinthians 13:1 RSV . To many people, persons whom
just put down all the time are just like a clanging cymbal even 
if they do have a point . Not that I'm saying these ones have a
point, normally such websites are malicious so I avoid them. I'm
sure my friends feel similar, so it would appear that the ministry
of the persons that have put this website together is an ineffective 
one.

I would like to thank Tom and others for expressing their views,
it's confirmed my view that persons would recognise such websites
for what they are.

Phil.
 

    >    Are you willing to drink of the cup Jesus drank from???  
    
Z        Yes.  I try to love others as myself.  And I don't require
Z        that they pass a litmus test first.  Jesus loved those who
Z        persecuted Him, not just those who professed to believe the
Z        right things.
    
    Actually, I was referring to persecution and suffering...which is what
    Jesus spoke of when asking the apostles the same question.  And Tom, I
    do agree with you regarding nastiness...I really do.  The only thing I
    was trying to say was any point that may be against a core
    set of beliefs shouldn't always be perceived as a boogeyman behind a
    tree...or a condescending statement towards somebody's faith.  
    
    When I was out in Santa Clara a few months ago, I had the pleasure of
    taking a customer whom I befriended out.  She stated she was an
    historian and had many books...some were related to the LDS Church.
    When the appropriate time came, I steered the subject onto Joseph
    Smith.  We started discussing the history of this man and eventually I
    challenged her as an historian to consider the viability of Joseph
    Smith as a prophet, i.e. does he measure up.  
    
    I left Santa Clara really unsure if I will ever see or hear from this
    person again.  I would hope that I do, but if I don't, I believe the
    conversation went two ways and as an historian, she should not have
    seen the question or challenge as nasty...especially since she left the
    church 10 years ago.
    
    As far as a seared conscience...that wasn't directed at Jehovah's
    Witnesses.  It was directed at a lukewarm Christian church that has
    sold it's soul to conformity....and I include my local church in this
    also.
    
    -Jack

| <<< Note 1234.33 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Ebonics Is Not Apply" >>>

| was trying to say was any point that may be against a core set of beliefs 
| shouldn't always be perceived as a boogeyman behind a tree...or a 
| condescending statement towards somebody's faith.

	Jack... Tom was talking about a particular instance though. I think
sometimes you take on more of a meaning than the author has. Always go with the
situation at hand. This way there are fewer problems that arise. In other
words, me thinks you did to Tom what you wrote above.

    Glen, you may perhaps be correct on this.  As I admitted up front, I
    didn't even go into the web page.  I'm of the belief if somebody truly
    believes they are in a church that is counteractive to their beliefs,
    or if they have been disfellowshipped in some manner, then it is
    natural they seek counsel from others who have fallen in the same boat.
    This website may in fact be the forum needed to break all emotional
    ties with a church.  So is the intent to be meanspirited as a webpage
    or is it there to inform and to minister to those who are former
    members of the church?  
    
    -Jack

	I don't know what the 'intent' of the webpage is as I have not spoken
to the author. The results seem to indicate that a different approach is
needed, though. 

    I have gone into the Ultranet Homepage.
    
    Ladies and Gentlemen, there is NOTHING meanspirited in that webpage. 
    Nothing at all.  But I would be interested in knowing what specifically
    you consider in there to be meanspirited.
    
    -Jack

    I found the Awake edition in there to be particularly disturbing.  The
    illogic and the waste!
    
    -Jack

    James Madison, Memorial and Remonstrance -1785
    
    http://grid.let.rug.nl/~welling/usa/documents/memorial.html
    
    

    James Madison...5'2" ata whopping 95 lbs.  One of our greatest
    presidents!

    James Madison, a Federalist, as opposed to Thomas Jefferson,
    an Anti-Federalist.  Both served as U.S. Presidents.
    
    Madison's wife's name has become associated with cupcakes and such.
    
    Richard
    

|    Just one more thing...why do you suppose it is that all the prophets of
|    God died martyrs deaths...not to mention each of the apostles and
|    countless Christians?  Mull over that for awhile then ask yourself if
|    you are confusing tolerance for conformity.
    
    
    ...or why Christians continue to be executed for their faith in over 30
    countries around the world today.

    Hostess > Dolly Madison > Little Debbie
    
    glad to help,
    Mike

.42

>    ...or why Christians continue to be executed for their faith in over 30
>    countries around the world today.

Yeah, and almost none of them have been killed by Jehovah's Witnesses.

Richard

    Nor other Christians.

    almost doesn't count

================================================================================
re: Note 1234.44   
>    ...or why Christians continue to be executed for their faith in over 30
>    countries around the world today.

|Yeah, and almost none of them have been killed by Jehovah's Witnesses.

|Richard

    Richard; This sounds like a cheap shot. It's implying some were killed
    by Jehovah's Witnesses. Witnesses do NOT execute people for their
    faith, or for any other reason. Why.. because we beleive in the
    teaching of the Bible such as Jesus' words at Matthew 22:37-39 where
    Jesus said in answer to the Pharisees  question/test of which was the
    greatest commandment of the law.. NWT :37 He said to him:"'You must
    love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul
    and with your whole mind.:38 'This is the greatest and first commandment.
    :39 The second, like it, is this;'You must love your neighbor as
    yourself.' 
    So how could someone who beleives what the Bible teaches kill another
    human? Hard to understand how wars can occur in "Christian" lands with
    "Christian" soldiers isn't it?  Richard; how many of those over 30
    countries are "Christian" countries?  Something to ponder isn't it.
    
    Robin
    
    

re .45

;    Nor other Christians.

Jack,

Sad truth is this is not the case as we see in places like Northern Ireland.
Predujices run deep and many professing Christians refuse to obey Jesus'
command to show love because of their predujice (John 13:34,35). Throughout
this sad episode, persons have been killed because they are identified as
being Protestant or Catholic. Yet, Jesus said his followers would be identified
by the love they have for each other.

Phil.

    Phil:
    
    I am not of the belief that every one who professes Christ possesses
    Christ.  The nonsensical spats going on in Europe are politically
    driven.  
    
    I do believe however that there is a fine line between prejudice and
    differences of ideology.  It is one thing to malign a church or a set
    of beliefs.  It is another thing all together to point out the
    potential deviations within doctrines and dispensations of scripture
    when a burden is there.  
    
    The misconception in our society today is that love must always be
    revealed through conciliation, gentleness, and acceptance.  This was
    never the case during the days of the apostles, as we learned through
    the experiences of Paul, and it should not be the case today.  
    
    "Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother."
    2nd Thess. 3:*
    
    -Jack

 Z   So how could someone who beleives what the Bible teaches kill another
 Z   human? Hard to understand how wars can occur in "Christian" lands
 Z   with "Christian" soldiers isn't it?  Richard; how many of those over 30
 Z   countries are "Christian" countries?  Something to ponder isn't it.
    
    And yet scripture has much symbolism relating to war...something the
    people of that time had to understand.
    
    "Think not that I have come to bring peace.  I have not come to bring
    peace but a sword."
    
    "Put on yourselves the whole armor of God..."
    
    "A soldier in service has not time for the affairs of civilians so that
    he may please the one he serves."
    
    -Jack

    Most of the 30+ countries are Muslim, Hindu, and Buddhist.

Jack,

;    I am not of the belief that every one who professes Christ possesses
;    Christ.  The nonsensical spats going on in Europe are politically
;    driven.

I agree with what you have said, but it highlights that many who profess
to be Christian have boundaries as far as their love will be shown. Surely,
the love Jesus spoke of trancends all boundaries, be they religious, ethnic
or national.

;    I do believe however that there is a fine line between prejudice and
;    differences of ideology.  It is one thing to malign a church or a set
;    of beliefs.  It is another thing all together to point out the
;    potential deviations within doctrines and dispensations of scripture
;    when a burden is there.  
    
;    The misconception in our society today is that love must always be
;    revealed through conciliation, gentleness, and acceptance.  This was
;    never the case during the days of the apostles, as we learned through
;    the experiences of Paul, and it should not be the case today. 

Agape love that the Bible speaks of is certainly more. It is a love that
is based on principle. By applying Bible principles such as those 
mentioned by Jesus in the Sermon on the mount will help a person overcome 
any strongly entrenched predujices. If persons want to point out potential
deviations of doctrines, then they should do so with all reasonableness
and respect for another persons beliefs. Because of ignorance often
sensational charges are made against another race or religion which
in turn leads to conflict. Jehovah Witnesses are often disparaged because
of their stand on blood, but how many persons actually take time and
fully look to why they have this belief?. Btw many religions have been
disparaged because of ignorance and not just Jehovah's Witnesses.


Phil.

.45

>    Nor other Christians.

It would be nice if Christians would never kill another Christian.  But we know
that's just not true.

Richard

.47

>    Richard; This sounds like a cheap shot. It's implying some were killed
>    by Jehovah's Witnesses. Witnesses do NOT execute people for their
>    faith, or for any other reason.

Robin,

	When I said 'almost none were killed by Jehovah's Witnesses,' it
was meant tongue in cheek.  I know Jehovah's Witnesses have never done
such a thing.  I was simply reinforcing the absurdity of the notion.

Richard

    Could we please bring this to note 9?  (The Processing Topic)

'It would be nice if "Christians" would never kill another "Christian."
      But we know that's just not true.'
    
    glad to help,
    Mike

    Several replies concerning Jehovah's Witnesses have been moved to
    topic 732.
    
    Richard Jones-Christie
    CHRISTIAN-PERSPECTIVE

    http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/vom/vom.html

    My church has some interesting resource materials.
    
    http://www.calvarychapel.com/ccc-phoenix/

    Interesting site dedicated to research on the building of the 3rd
    Temple.
    
    http://www.templemount.org/

http://www.flash.net/~thedoor/

	http://www.godhatesfags.com

    Glen, the best thing to do is give no credance to the juveniles, and
    they will drift away into the woodwork.
    
    -Jack

.63

>    Glen, the best thing to do is give no credance to the juveniles, and
>    they will drift away into the woodwork.

Would that it were true.  Unfortunately, they sometimes become members of
congress.

Richard

    Awful stuff.  Why do people even bother writing up such dreck?  Doesn't
    seem very loving.
    
    

| <<< Note 1234.63 by ASGMKA::MARTIN "Concerto in 66 Movements" >>>

| Glen, the best thing to do is give no credance to the juveniles, and
| they will drift away into the woodwork.

	Even if they are older than you and me? :-)

	I'm anxious to hear what Mike Heiser and Jeff Benson think of the site.

    I am quite curious as to why you would be anxious.  Do you feel there
    is a remote possibility that Mike Heiser is a Nazi sympathizer or that
    he thinks God hates fags?  Jeff also?!
    
    -Jack

	To be honest, Jack.... I asked because I don't know how they would
react. Both are definitly not pro-gay. :-) So I am curious as to what they
think.

    I checked out the site... interesting rationalizations (which goes to
    show you that you can rationalize nearly anything by selective use of
    scripture).
    
    Christ commanded us to be righteous in our actions (not the same as
    "self-righteous"), to "put on the clothes of righteousness".  I see
    nothing righteous about "God Hates Fags" signs, nor attending funerals
    with picket signs in hand.  Another case of not being able to separate
    the sin from the sinner.
    
    You can't win anyone over for Christ by brazenly offending them (though
    some find the scriptures offensive and divisive, but that's not what I'm 
    talking about, obviously)
    
    
    There are also plenty of prophesy sites out there with some very
    interesting theories... wrong, but interesting nonetheless.  I think
    they try to interpret symbolism so much that they forget the actual
    words (I'm not saying they are 100% wrong, but their conclusions do not
    match what the Word says, IMO).

    I think it's much worse than
    http://www.webshowplace.com/heavensgate.html
    which I also disagree with.  
    
     http://www.godhatesfags.com shows that zealots misuse, misapply, and
    take scripture out of context to suit their personal agendas.  How can
    someone claim that God hates a specific group when this obviously
    contradicts scripture?  They aren't showing the love of Christ to
    attract people to the Gospel message.  They aren't loving the sinner
    and hating the sin.  They are hating both.  This isn't Biblical.
    
    Mike

	Mike, thanks for posting. It was refreshing to see your reply!

    Just out of curiousity, is this in Westboro, MA?

No.  Topeka, Kansas.

/john

    A nasty site, to be sure.

    I'm impressed that this site isn't recommended/endorsed
    by anyone here.  I somehow thought some people here would
    agree with that point of view.

    I know this doesn't mean that homeosexuality is endorsed by
    everyone.  I'm happy to see that those here who disagree
    are more civilised than others  people out there.

    Tom

	I agree, Tom! Although Jeff Benson hasn't responded, yet. :-)

    http://www.abortion.com/abortion.html

    A laughable straw pole.

    I thought it was a "poll"
    
    You shouldn't find things like it laughable.  I think it's pretty sad
    that it has to come to this point, even if the good guys are winning in
    a landslide.

	It is laughable because a poll is only as good as who knows about it.




Glen

     It also has pictures of cute little babies all over it.

     (Hint hint)

    ...but Clinton continues to behave as if he never sees the results or
    ignores them.  

    This is because more professionally done polls show that most
    people in this country support a woman's right to choose.

    Tom

    Even professional polls have problems with sample size and targeted
    samples.

Permit me to suggest continuing the current exchange under the following topic:
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Note 1051.0         Polls, surveys, statistics, charts, etc.          20 replies
CSC32::J_CHRISTIE "Unquenchable fire"                14 lines  31-JAN-1995 12:19
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