Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

Not any more than rotting does...

    Richard,
    
    My philosophy about life after death may be very different from others
    here.  However, I fail to see what use a spiritual body has for a
    broken physical shell whose usefulness has passed.  I would far rather
    my physical shell be burnt and the remains returned to the earth to
    nourish her and somewhat make up for what I have taken out, than to be
    embalmed, shoved into a concrete liner and expensive box in the vain
    hope that this shell won't decay.
    
    meg

Cremation can only destroy the body, but not the soul.  Cremation itself
will have no effect at all at the resurrection.

Pagans used to burn Christians' bodies to mock their belief in resurrection.

As a result, for many years it was forbidden for Christians to be cremated,
not because Christians believed that it would prevent the resurrection, but
because the _act_ of burning a dead body was associated with the mockery of
a basic Christian Truth.

As a specific example, Roman Catholic canon 1176 � 3 says: "The Church
earnestly recommends that the pious custom of burying the bodies of the
dead be observed; it does not, however, forbid cremation unless it has
been chosen for reasons which are contrary to Christian teaching."

In addition to the "mockery" mentioned above, belief that one's spirit
lives on throughout a lake if ashes were sprinkled in a lake, or would be
absorbed into a tree if the tree were fertilized with the ashes would be
a forbidden reason for a Christian to choose cremation.

Returning one's physical elements to the earth in an ecologically more sound
manner than waiting for complete decomposition of an embalmed body is a
perfectly acceptable reason for a Christian to choose cremation.

/john

    And what about organ donation?  
    
    

RE .0

Richard,

A quick answer is no, it is the person who is resurrected
and not the old body.

Job once said "O that in Sheol you would conceal me, that
you keep me secret until tour anger turns back, that you 
would set a time limit for me and remember me!" Job 14:13 NWT

When a person dies they cease to exist (Eccl. 9:5,10, Ps 146:4,
Ps 6:5, Isa 38:18, Eccl 3:19,20, Ps 115:17, Acts 13:36), Job 
recognised this. His only hope was that he was in God's memory
and that God would some day remember Job and resurrect him.
That is bring him back to life.

Hence we see Jesus' words in John 5:28 NWT "Do not marvel at
this, because the hour is coming in which all those in memorial
tombs will hear his voice and come out," that is those whom
God has held in remembrance. 

As a loving Father it would seem logical that God will resurrect
persons into good healthy bodies, rather than returning them to 
ones that still have the illness that they mave have died from.
No doubt these bodies would be similar in appearnce to their old
one so that family and friends would recognise them.


Phil.  

    If the body is no big deal, then why was it such a big deal for Jesus,
    body and all, to come out of the tomb?   Why was it not good enough to 
    say that his spirit went to heaven and his body remained in the tomb,
    a fitting example for the rest of us mere mortals?
    

Because the Christian doctrine is specifically _resurrection_of_the_body_.

But remember, the body you have today is not the same body you will have
40 years from today; much of it will have been replaced.

Likewise, the resurrected body is a glorified body, both more human and
more spiritual than the body you have today -- a perfected and eternal
body.

First century Palestinian Jews were very down to earth people who would
not have been very impressed with a dead Lord and a spiritual mumbo-jumbo
experience.  Jesus showed them the fullness of the resurrection; that
in it, the old passes completely away and is replaced by a new body, a
new creation, a new perfection.

/john

    then of course the question remains... Why didn't he then roam the
    streets of Jeruselem "AFTER" being ressurected.  HARD TESTIMONY that 
    he was no phony.  Instead, it was said that he apeared to only a very
    few... those who were his closest followers  (how convenient?)
    
    -dave

    
    He did roam about according to the Bible.  He was seen by over 500
    people according to the Bible.
    
    jeff

re .8

	Dave,

	Many persons witnessed the account of the resurrection of Lazarus.
	What was the reaction of the religious leaders? happy that this
	had ocurred? Did they give God glory ? No the first thing that 
	entered into their minds was to kill Lazarus and Jesus (John 12:9,10).

	The events of Pentecost 33 CE was more than enough to show the
	Jews that Jesus had indeed received his hevenly resurrection.

	Phil. 

	It is interesting to note that in all the accounts after
	Jesus' resurrection, that those who saw him didn't recognise
	his outward appearance or body. They only began to recognise 
	the person of Jesus through his actions and speech.

	Phil.

    In other words he looked like someone else physically but seemed like 
    Jesus when he spoke?  
    
    If a stranger walked up to you and said that he was Richard Nixon, and 
    indeed manifested all the memories and manerisms of the man (to the best 
    of your knowlege), what would you think?  Nixon risen or a phony?
                                                
    

    
>    If a stranger walked up to you and said that he was Richard Nixon, and 
>    indeed manifested all the memories and manerisms of the man (to the best 
>    of your knowlege), what would you think?  Nixon risen or a phony?
 

  Perhaps the nail pierced holes in Jesus' hands and feet gave them a clue
  as well as his ability to pass through solid walls, etc.  Even Richard
  Nixon couldn't do that!




 Jim                                               
    

>	It is interesting to note that in all the accounts after
>	Jesus' resurrection, that those who saw him didn't recognise
>	his outward appearance or body. They only began to recognise 
>	the person of Jesus through his actions and speech.

>	Phil.
    
    This is not true.  When Christ appeared to the Apostles in the upper
    room, they knew exactly who He was.
    
    jeff

I am planning to have this infuriatingly uncooperative vessel I inhabit
cremated after my demise.

I can't see myself taking up real estate after I'm gone.  Cremation is
also the more economical choice.

Shalom,
Richard

.14

>>	It is interesting to note that in all the accounts after
>>	Jesus' resurrection, that those who saw him didn't recognise
>>	his outward appearance or body. They only began to recognise 
>>	the person of Jesus through his actions and speech.

>>	Phil.
    
>    This is not true.  When Christ appeared to the Apostles in the upper
>    room, they knew exactly who He was.
    
>    jeff

I don't think I would have put it so tersely, for what Phil said is certainly
true in a number of instances.

What I find interesting is that Jesus, after the resurrection, apparently
still feels hunger.

Shalom,
Richard

>What I find interesting is that Jesus, after the resurrection, apparently
>still feels hunger.


 Well, when believers all gather at the wedding feast after the banquet,
 we'll have to be hungry!




 Jim

Well, I heard that he only appeared to Mary M, in the garden, then to the
Apostles later on, and then straight up to heaven after that.

Someone else said that he had a "perfected and eternal body".

Someone else said that he appeared to hundreds, but he didn't look like
Jesus.

Maybe the perfected body looked different from the original ?

Someone else said that he did indeed look like Jesus to the Apostles at
least.

Then someone else who said that Jesus appeared with holes in his hands and
feet.

Maybe it was his old body, with the holes?  He'd look the same and this
would also justify the need for the tomb stone being moved away on the
morning of the 3rd day.

Then the same one who said that he appeared with the holes in his hands
said that he could walk through solid walls.

He never did that with the old body.  Maybe it was the perfected one?
But if he could move through solid walls, why was the tomb stone moved
away?

Then someone said that he was hungry.

Hmmmmm.. I wonder.  If the hungry Jesus swallowed an olive whole, then
walked through a wall, would the olive remain behind?  Despite what he
looked like?


If you put all the stories together, you have Jesus risen, from the tomb,
in a perfected body, with holes in hands and feet, walking through walls,
hungry, looking like someone else to hundreds but like the familiar Jesus
to the Apostles.

The christian cause would be served if everyone could get together and come
up with a single story on this.  Seems kind of silly the way it is.

-dave

>Hmmmmm.. I wonder.  If the hungry Jesus swallowed an olive whole, then
>walked through a wall, would the olive remain behind?  Despite what he
>looked like?

Such questions to ponder...   :-)

>The christian cause would be served if everyone could get together and come
>up with a single story on this.  Seems kind of silly the way it is.

Can anyone see why having several different stories is better than
one "straight" story?

More questions to ponder...

Tom

RE:                    <<< Note 1221.18 by SMART2::DGAUTHIER >>>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dave, here are my humble observations in response to some of your statements
and questions:


>Well, I heard that he only appeared to Mary M, in the garden, then to the
>Apostles later on, and then straight up to heaven after that.

The Bible actually talks about a few encounters with the risen Yeshua in
detail, and also mentions that there were other encounters and witnesses
as well that were not written down in detail.  

>Someone else said that he had a "perfected and eternal body".
>

He had a resurrected body. I do not think the Bible gives us a concrete
description of what a perfected body might mean, but what an eternal body
means is that it is no longer subject to death and decay like our current 
bodies.

>Someone else said that he appeared to hundreds, but he didn't look like
>Jesus.
>
>Maybe the perfected body looked different from the original ?
>
>Someone else said that he did indeed look like Jesus to the Apostles at
>least.

My understanding, from the Biblical accounts is that Yeshua looked like 
He did before His death, but that at times, whether for natural reasons
or becausae He did not permit it, his friends and followers did not 
recognize him. Actually I think there may be only three instances where He
was not immediately recognizable, and these are fairly explainable.

The first was when He appeared to Miriam in the garden where the tomb was
located.  There would be several reasons she would not immediately know it
was Him. First, it may have been dusk or dawn, when the light is a twilight,
and things are somewhat obscurred.  Secondly, she had been crying and her 
eyes would be clouded with tears. Thirdly, she was not expecting him. Have
you ever had the experience of seeing someone you knew in a place where you
would not expect to see them, and not immediately being aware that you knew
them? I have experienced this. Finally, he may have had his head covered,
somewhat hiding his features, and he may not have been directly facing
her. The combination of these things are enough for me to easily think that 
she could have mistaken him for a stranger without any supernatural
intervention.

Another was when he came along side the two followers who were returning to
their home in Emaeus (sp?) from Jerusalem.  This could be a case where He
did not want them to recognize Him because He was better able to teach them 
what they needed to learn if they thought he was a stranger. However, their 
grief and the fact they would not be expecting him, may have clouded both 
their eyes and reason enough for Him to remain incognito without using his
power to keep them from recognition. Especially if they had their eyes 
downcast, looking at the road as they walkd, and Yeshua perhaps had His 
tallit up over His head, and averted his face.  The act of blessing the bread 
and breaking it may have been one that they had seen Him do many times, and 
the familiar movements broke through their grief enabling them to recognize Him.

And then there is the time the disciples were fishing. I don't know how 
far they were from the shore. But I do know that after a certain distance,
I cannot always see well enough to recognize someone I know well. You know
its a person, but who?

There is also the time Yeshua appeared to the disciples when they were 
together in some room. When I read the text, my impression is it was less 
a lack of recognition, than it was an incredulousness and disbelief that this 
could actually be possible.  After all, they were very aware that he had 
been mutilated through severe beatings and whippings, and had died on an
execution stake, following which he'd been entombed.

>
>Then someone else who said that Jesus appeared with holes in his hands and
>feet.
>
>Maybe it was his old body, with the holes?  He'd look the same and this
>would also justify the need for the tomb stone being moved away on the
>morning of the 3rd day.
>
>Then the same one who said that he appeared with the holes in his hands
>said that he could walk through solid walls.
>
>He never did that with the old body.  Maybe it was the perfected one?
>But if he could move through solid walls, why was the tomb stone moved
>away?

I think the wounds on His hands and feet are a deliberate sign to us that
He is who He is, and that He died in the manner He did for us.  Will our new 
bodies be scar free, I don't know, my impression is probably, but what does it
matter, the way we experience and understand things will be changed.

Will we all be able to walk through walls? I don't know, but even as
resurrected beings, we will not have all the power that Yeshua does.

I am sure the tomb was rolled away so that people would know He was no 
longer in it, and not because it was the only way for Him to exit.

>Then someone said that he was hungry.
>
>Hmmmmm.. I wonder.  If the hungry Jesus swallowed an olive whole, then
>walked through a wall, would the olive remain behind?  Despite what he
>looked like?

Do you think a resurrected body incapable of digestion? I think Yeshua 
asked for food to show the people He was not a ghost or spirit, but that
He was indeed resurrected.  They had all been taught about resurrection, here
was positive proof.  Hunger may be a part of our resurrected future though
I don't know for sure, but I am sure starvation will not be part of our
experience.

As far as the olive goes, its all atoms and molocules anyhow. I am sure the
one who created and put together these things has the power to manipulate
them as well.

Leslie

I'm convinced that Jesus did not pass through walls.

Instead, Jesus, whose body was then perfected and glorified, was passed
through by the walls of this transitory world.

/john

    For some more observations concerning the recognition of the risen Jesus
    see the first few paragraphs of 219.20.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    organ donation?
    
    if there are any parts of me when I leave this body that are worth
    anything to others needing spare parts they are more than welcome to
    them.  Burn the rest and use them to fertilize me garden.  Then
    remember me with every juicy tomato and golden ear of corn that comes
    out of the garden.
    
    meg

Matthew 27:51-53

	And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain
from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the
rocks rent;
	And the �graves� were opened; and many bodies of the
saints which slept arose,
	And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and
went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


This event, recorded only in Matthew, appears to fulfill the resurrection
of the dead.  Certainly it is �a� resurrection of the dead, if not the
anticipated resurrection of the dead.  It's difficult for me to imagine
this event without the bodies first being in their graves, not having been
cremated.  Am I alone in this?

Shalom,
Richard

    Richard, given the emabalming practices or lack thereof in that time, I
    would think some of those bodies would look pretty "icky" if you get my
    drift.
    
    meg

Certainly even if in their graves, the bodies would have undergone some
significant decomposition.

Be glad and rejoice: the resurrection of the dead does not require that
the bodies to be resurrected remain intact.

Has anyone read this book that's out (certainly not a Christian book as
far as I know) called something like "The Physics of Resurrection"?

/john

  So, assuming Richard's  suggestion is correct, does that mean that those
  believers who are incinerated in a plane crash or other horrific tragedy,
  and whose remains can't be found, let alone be put in a grave, are not
  resurrected?


  If God can create man out of the dust, He can certainly resurrect 
  a human  from it's ashes.



  IMO, of course.



 Jim

    If you can believe that a man can live for days inside the belly of a
    whale, another man can peel open the Red Sea by waving a staff at it
    and another man can build a boat out of sticks on which he stuffs 2 of 
    every animal, ressurection seems like childs play.  I mean in a limited 
    way, they do it every day in emergency rooms across the country.

 "With God, all things are possible".






 Jim

    Is the impossible possible with God?
    
    (the devile made me do it... if there is a devil)
    
    -dave

I don't pretend to know how resurrection works.  I'm not worried about it.
I'm just asking questions.

I've seen and heard about miracles where the deaf could hear and the blind
could see.  But at least the deaf had ears and the blind had eyes to begin
with.  I've never heard of a miracle, for example, where an amputee gained
a new limb.

It does cause me to wonder.

As I say, however, I'm planning to have my carcass incinerated.

Shalom,
Richard

RE: .10  Richard

>As I say, however, I'm planning to have my carcass incinerated.

Not very soon, I hope....

Tom

    There's been a lot of bad talk about the human body.  "incinerate the
    carcass", "burn the physical shell", etc...  .  I dunno, mine
    seems to be OK.  It ain't the best but it ain't the worst either.  
    Everything works, I feel fine and it serves me very well.  I know the
    day will come when it'll break down, but I'll remember all the good
    years too.  If I ever met my creator, and I'm sure many of you believe 
    that I will, I'd make it a point to thank him/her for mine before being 
    cast down into the flames.  
    
    I'd like mine buried whole, hold the boxes.  They can take any organs
    they want, give it to medical schools for anatomy lab, whatever, but
    then just bury it whole.  No, if it were legal, I like what the Native
    Americans used to do.  They used to place the body up on a platform for
    it to decompose during which time the spirit was released back into
    nature, as it is part of nature.
    
    So if you drive by a cemetary and see one of those platforms, you'll
    know it's either me or a nut like me.
    
    -dave

.34

>    There's been a lot of bad talk about the human body.  "incinerate the
>    carcass",

I really didn't mean what I said as a negative remark about the human body.
I simply wanted to speak of cremation in a playful, yet nonchalant way.

Shalom,
Richard

   When someone very close to me died a few years ago (if any less years
   had passed, I don't think I could talk about this), we were told by 
   funeral home person that Massachusetts required embalming.  Our desire
   would have been to not do the embalming fluids, but just have the body
   put into the casket in its natural state.  Does anyone know if this is
   really a legal requirement in MA. and more importantly, why?  What about
   other states in the U.S. and other countries?

   Leslie

From the Encyclopaedia Britannica:

	In the United States, embalming is a standard practice
	as a result of the government support it has received, and
	is mandatory when bodies are being transported by common
	carrier, and, in many states, usually when there is an
	interval of more than 48 hours between death and burial.

	In Europe, however, embalming is rarely practiced. In
	many countries permits are required; in most it is performed
	only by medical practitioners, and the costs are relatively high.

        Thanks John, that increases my knowledge a little bit, but I
        still have some remaining questions. Chief among these is
        Why does the government support embalming?

        Leslie

    .38
    
    What John described in .37 is pretty much my understandng of Colorado
    law.  If the body is to be buried within 3 days locally, I think,
    embalming is not required.
    
    I think health reasons are cited, but left unspecified.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard