Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

>What it's like for a non-Christian to dwell in a predominantly Christian
>community?

I suppose you'd get a sense of being hated if you happen to be moslem
living in a christian community in Serbia these days. (provided you were
still alive to experience anything at all)

	I think in this country, it is pretty easy to live as a non-christian.
But at the same time, when people talk about God a lot, it's got to frustrate
them. I wonder how a bridge can be gapped so that constant dialogue can happen
between the 2 groups, without having either side try and convince the other
they're wrong. 


Glen

    
    I don't think we have any participants who live in a predominantly
    Christian community who could comment.
    
    jeff

>    I don't think we have any participants who live in a predominantly
>    Christian community who could comment.

   Touche'			:-)

    I don't label myself as christian and I live in a predominately
    christian community.  (not expecting any touche's)
    
    What's it like?  I like my christian neighbors just fine.  They treat
    me right and I gladly return the favor.  I also like atheists just fine.  
    I like moslems, buddhists, and people who worship Zeus... just fine.  To
    those who distance themselves from me because I don't practice their
    religion, I respect their desire to be distant and gladly return the
    favor.  To those who speak down at me because I don't happen to
    practice their religion, I ignore.
    
    But that's just life in America.
    
    How would you feel if you were living in Saudi Arabia?  
    
    -dave

	Jeff, what do you base your remark on? Just curious.

I initiated .0 with Steve Bittrolff and Meg Evans in mind.

Shalom,
Richard

Actually, it's mostly neutral, sometimes fun, sometimes a bit scary.

In my day to day life, for the most part, I don't notice it. I have many 
devoutly religious friends and many non-religious friends. (I tend to be 
closer to the non-religious friends, but this is not 100%). We respect each 
other's beliefs (or non beliefs) and get along fine. For the most part I do 
not have the probing discussions with them that I have in this forum, we 
pretty much ignore the question. My karate instructor is a devout Christian 
that starts the session off with a prayer (before beating the crap out of me 
:^) and I have no problems with that.

It is fun to get into conversations with the evangalists that come to my door. 
I do see more of this activity here than in other places I have lived, but as 
most of you are aware, I enjoy this kind of discourse :^)

It gets scary when the attempt is made to force beliefs upon me or my family, 
for instance by loading school boards with stealth candidates to allow things 
in the schools I find unacceptable. On the other hand this is a national 
issue, I believe that my local school board is relatively neutral in these 
matters. A friend of mine put a Darwin fish on his car and within a short 
amount of time had someone 'key' his car and remove 3 of the six lug nuts from 
one tire and loosen the other 3 nuts, I find this scary. I am distressed by 
the hate groups against gays that seem to eminate from here, but they have 
little direct impact on me. I also have an agnostic friend who is having 
trouble finding day care that does not actively (and sneakily) push Christian 
beliefs on his kids, this is probably the most overt sign of being in a 
Christian community. 

But overall I don't feel persecuted, and I really enjoy living here. 

Steve

And yesterday that friend had the Darwin fish ripped off of his car. 
Fortunately he had a spare :^)

BTW, in my case I would be willing to take feedback of a non SRO nature in 
another note, if anyone has any...

Steve

    In many ways it is like being anyone in a predominantly anything
    environment.  There are aggravations though, I keep my NRA decal
    prominent after a spate of "bumper tag" incidents with people who
    apparently took offense to my anti-A2 stickers, another friends husband
    asked her to remove her "goddess is alive and magick is afoot" sticker
    after he drove her car and had a similar incident to mine.  
    
    My neighbors two of whom are very devout and I have no problems. 
    Gladys is glad to have someone she can depend on to get her groceries,
    advise her on plants for her sister's and mother's grave sites, and
    take care of piddly things that her minister and church have no time
    for when she gets down and Silver Key has no volunteers to help. 
    
    Claire is a dedicated Methodist and she and I have long, philosophical
    and metaphysical conversations about our similarities in beliefs as
    well as the differences.  She still worries that I am going to hell,
    and I still wonder how many lives she will need to lead before she
    finds a path to Mom, but in the main we get along on the similarities
    of doing community service, (we co-lead girl-scouts together, compare
    notes on what the local soup kitchen needs, and are active on different
    boards with our personal interests) love of our dieties, and our
    families.  I have gone to her church and the roof stayed up and she may
    yet come to a seasonal sabbat with me.  
    
    Major stumbling blocks?  Explaining to Carrie that using the word
    "witch" is an inflamatory word that gets some people visioning human
    sacrifice and the worship of the dark demi-diety of the Christian
    religion.  Pagan isn't satisfying to me, as too many people believe it
    means we have no belief in any diety, let alone the Lady and her
    consort.  The knowlege that all her friends would like for her to come
    to church with them, but that none of them are permitted by their
    parents to join us at a full moon or sabbat.  
    
    It is often difficult to connect with other witches who have children of
    the same ages as many of us are living quietly underground in order not
    to raise flags with their neighbors.  This makes finding peer agemates
    a pain when trying to set up religious instruction in a group setting
    to begin with and when you have many major traditions among the small
    pool in the area, a lot of conflicts in that instruction.  Like
    christians we have traditions ranging from very ritualistic and formal,
    down to celebratory traditions with no fixed rituals beyond the days
    they occur.  
    
    Other problems we run into, is finding places to have meetings, a local
    bank stopped letting ESP rent their "community room" after a saturation
    bombing level of phone calls from the local christian community
    threatening to pull their accounts from said bank.  I no longer bank
    there although it is the most convenient location to my home.  There
    have been stinks raised about using a school's community section, but
    the district has taken the tack that we are a religion, and if we are
    prevented from having public rituals there then the churches who also
    use community schools must also forgo services in the schools after
    hours. 
    
    Dealing with the door to door folk is a minor annoyance.  I am looking
    for a nice venus of wellendorf to put in my front yard.
    
    meg

We live in a Christian community.  Sometimes it's so Khristian
that my daughter, who loves to dance, in 1st grade was told by 
kids on the bus, that God doesn't want her to dance.

Anyway, my wife drives a Voyager with a "Back off, I'm a Goddess"
bumper sticker and, as far as I know, she's never had a problem.

Meg,
What's an "anti-A2" sticker?

Tom Baker

>What's an "anti-A2" sticker?

.12 Tom,

	"A2" is shorthand for Colorado's Amendment 2 (See 91.844 for the text).
Amendment 2 is presently being considered by the Supreme Court of the United
States.

Shalom,
Richard

    Tom,
    
    A2 was an ammendment that has Colorado on the map and in SCOTUS for
    denying people the right to legal protection on the basis of sexual
    orientation.  It originated with Colorado for Family Values, but the
    only family values I have seen them work on are those that teach people
    that it is ok to dislike lesbigays, to deny them jobs, and the right to
    fully participate in the stte.
    
    meg, who lives at ground zero

Oh, *that* amendment.  I just never heard it called "a2" before.

>    meg, who lives at ground zero

Cheyenne Mountain?

Tom

    Tom,
    
    CFV and A2 were started in Colorado springs.  This is Ground Zero for
    the human rights issues in Colorado, and possibly nationwide, since CFV
    hs been lending legal advice and money to other communities and states
    for similar ammendments, including the especially egregious one that
    failed in Oregon in 94.
    
    meg

.15

>Cheyenne Mountain?

I can see Cheyenne Mountain from my kitchen window.

Richard

    I guess it's all a matter of drawing a line between toleration and
    acting on a perceived threat.  I see hypocricy in those who proclaim 
    themselevs christian while persecuting others... for any reason.  Did
    not Jesus teach unconditional love?  Even for one's perceived enemy?
    
    -dave

>    I guess it's all a matter of drawing a line between toleration and
>    acting on a perceived threat.  I see hypocricy in those who proclaim 
>    themselevs christian while persecuting others... for any reason.  Did
>    not Jesus teach unconditional love?  Even for one's perceived enemy?

What gets me are the ones who say we are hypocrites if we somehow fail to
appreciate their intolerence.

Richard

    After reading the papers this week and seeeing some of the reactions
    around churches which claim to be christian, this pagan wonders just
    where is your love?
    
    1.  Bishop threatening excommunication for people belonging to several
    groups.
    
    2.  Other people within that same church deriding the excommunication
    orders, while others just look on in shock, and still others think it
    is a great idea.
    
    3.  The American Baptists tossing out churches in the Bay area because
    they accept homosexual people in their congregation, and again, the
    reactions of some people to this news.
    
    4.  The namecalling on both sides from the veto and search for common
    ground by Governor Roy Romer, (CO)
    
    
    5.  Christians telling other Christians that they lie or are inventing
    their god, while the people who say this appear (again to this pagan)
    to be commiting idolatry with a book.  
    
    6.  Deacons in a church deciding to have a baby removed from a
    cemetary, because her father is black, and they never had a black
    person buried in the cemetary from 18muble until now.
    
    You know this makes your religion look very unloving, judgemental, and
    inflexible.  This seems to be contrary to what your greatest teacher
    was reported to say in chapters of the books which record his history. 
    Not that I spose it matters, but it was asked how nonchristians feel in
    a christian community, and I thought you might like to see it.  I don't
    expect total harmony, but the appearances of fear and hatred toward
    people who believe in the same things, but profess them or act
    differently from others is rather saddening.
    
    meg
    

    Then there is a woman with some beliefs that border on 
    pagan who has been attending a church, joined the choir
    and has found friendship, fellowship and community.
    
    They haven't told her she's bad.  Quite the contrary.
    They're learning to love her and her heart is opening.
    
    She'll be baptised and will join the church on Easter.
    
    This church has never made the national papers.  What you
    see in the papers is frequently there because it is
    extraordinary.
    
    She may be happier than she's ever been in her life.
    
    She's my wife.
    
    Tom

    Oh I am aware that most churches seem to be pretty sincere, like the
    one northwest of here who has taken a fellow pagan into their midst and
    accept that her version of the devine is roughly the same.  They like
    having someone who is willing to help with crisis and grief counseling
    and who will help drop off food baskets and who is willing to witness
    in a truly non-denominational way about the love of god(dess).  She is
    quite happy there.  While the guise of christianity is not my thing I
    am happy she has found peace and a calling.  She may even convert, so
    she can work on becoming a lay-minister and helping others more.  
    
    I am also aware of my neighbor who got me into girlscout leadership. 
    As I have posted here before, she and I concentrate on our similarities
    in beliefs, rather than the differences.  It does call for both of us
    to compromise in our belifs, I work with her on the song/graces the
    girls say, and some are very christian oriented, some are earth
    oriented and some are completely non-either-of-our-beliefs oriented as
    we have a diverse group of girls.  
    
    If we accept that mom/god(dess)/dad is love first, and doctrine later,
    we have a much better chance of coming to an understanding of each
    others' beliefs and maybe come to a greater understanding of the all. 
    Without that there is no hope of learning or compromise to the point
    where we can hear each other. Just as I can't bludgeon you into
    understanding that accepting mom will bring you into harmony, similar
    attempts to bludgeon me into being born again and hating my flesh and
    family while pretending to be loving will fail.
    
    meg