| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 1215.1 | Only a meek person would follow the ways of peace, in an ungodly world. | RDGENG::YERKESS | bring me sunshine in your smile | Mon Feb 05 1996 08:52 | 60 |
| re .0
Richard,
Many professing Christians believe their inheritance is in
heaven and not on earth, so they probabally can't relate to
these scriptures. However, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that
only a select few will receive a heavenly inheritance, and
the rest of the meek ones will receive an earthly inheritance
(which is in line with God's original purpose Genesis 1:28
Isaiah 55:11).
From a couple of dictionaries I found the following definition
of the word meek : Patient without resentment, soft, gentle,
or mild of temper, forbearing, humble, submissive.
I think many view meekness in a negative way, but I see it as
a positive quality. For example, only a meek person would
turn the other cheek when given an insult. Returning insult
for insult just makes matters worse.
A meek person, would not be jealous that some have been given
the heavenly calling but express joy in having life forever
on a paradise earth set before them.
In the scripture Richard mentioned from Psalms 37, one thing that
will be noticeable and that is peace. Not only peace because all
wars have ceased (Psalm 46:9), but in all aspects of life including
the family. Gone will be the problems and strife we all see in life
today, for the spirit of persons will not be one of self (me first)
but that of a self-sacrificing spirit.
Now to answer your question, I don't think it is naive to think that
the meek will inherit the earth because of the following scriptures:
Isaiah 2:2-4 NWT "And it must occur in the final part of the days [that]
the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above
the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the
hills; and to it all the nations must stream. And many peoples will
certainly go and say: 'Come, YOU people and let us go up to the mountain
of Jehovah, to the house of God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about
his ways, and we will walk in his paths. For out of Zion law will go forth,
and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. And he will certainly render
judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples.
And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears
into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither
will they learn war anymore."
Now in contrast, the gospels, tell us that wars will become a major occurrence
during these last days (Matthew 24). And 2 Timothy 3:1-5 shows what kind
of spirit many would show (me first). The Isaiah scripture says that
"the nations must stream." to the "house of Jehovah" (or true worship)
that is persons must learn about his ways of peace and apply it in their lives.
How difficult this would be with the pressures in a spiritually darkened world.
Only a meek person would exhibit forbearance, humility and submissiveness
to Godly counsel under such conditions. Persons such as Job and Moses are
fine examples for us today. As with Job, the meek will indeed receive their
inheritance in due time.
Phil.
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| 1215.2 | | CSLALL::HENDERSON | We shall behold Him! | Mon Feb 05 1996 09:25 | 14 |
|
>Isn't it just plain naive to believe that the meek shall inherit the earth?
Not if one believes what the Bible has to say about what will be happening
in the future.
Jim
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| 1215.3 | | CNTROL::DGAUTHIER | | Mon Feb 05 1996 12:55 | 8 |
| Theory has it that there was a time when the meekest of the meek were
small mammals, scurrying around for cover in the shadows of the dinosaurs.
The weather took a quick turn for the worse and WHAMO, the meek
inherited the earth.
I know, I know, there were no such things as dinosaurs and the the
implication that mammals evolved to inherit the earth is all wrong.
But I thought I would make the observation here anyway.
|
| 1215.4 | | ALFSS1::BENSON | Eternal Weltanschauung | Mon Feb 05 1996 13:32 | 20 |
|
> I know, I know, there were no such things as dinosaurs and the the
> implication that mammals evolved to inherit the earth is all wrong.
> But I thought I would make the observation here anyway.
There you go again, Dave! You build this strawman so often I wonder if
you are even capable of learning anything!
Christians observe the dinosaur fossils and accept their existence
without reservation. Of course the explanation of their existence
would no doubt be quite different.
The analogy, such that it is, that mammals evolved to inherit the earth
is an amusing one but hardly appropriate. Jesus was speaking of the
future; while in evolutionary dogma humans, rats, possums, or whatever
(or just mammals, if you prefer) had already "inherited the earth" long
before Jesus made His proclamation.
jeff
|
| 1215.5 | | CNTROL::DGAUTHIER | | Mon Feb 05 1996 16:13 | 32 |
| >You build this strawman so often I wonder if
> you are even capable of learning anything!
Thanks for the insult.
>Christians observe the dinosaur fossils and accept their existence
>without reservation.
No one can deny the fossils exist. Many deny that they're the fossils
of huge animals that lived long beore biblical day #1. I know of
several christians who explained to me that the fossils must have been
placed here as some sort of temptation and that they should be shunned.
The references to the 7-day creation, Adam and Eve, Noah's ark, etc...
were used to prove that dinosaurs could not have existed. If one accepts
the bible literally, then the explanation is reasonable. I know of other
christians who do not take the bible so literally and believe that
dinosaurs existed in the traditional sense. Apparently, your believs
are some shade of gray between those two.
>The analogy, such that it is, that mammals evolved to inherit the
>earth is an amusing one but hardly appropriate.
Perfetly appropriate. The meek inherited the earth (according to
archeologist). And you're right, it was just an analogy (clearly
similar in some ways and equally clearly different in others)
Regardless, I'm glad you got a laugh out of it, albeit at my expense.
-dave
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| 1215.6 | | ALFSS1::BENSON | Eternal Weltanschauung | Mon Feb 05 1996 17:03 | 70 |
| >You build this strawman so often I wonder if
> you are even capable of learning anything!
>> Thanks for the insult.
It was not an intended insult. It is hyperbole, Dave, hyperbole! But
I was remiss in not putting on a smiley face, if that would have
helped. I apologize. Why don't you address the main point rather than be
so quick to take offense? The main point is, of course, the fact that you
consistently build a strawman placing science and religion at odds.
>Christians observe the dinosaur fossils and accept their existence
>without reservation.
>>Many deny that they're the fossils
>>of huge animals that lived long beore biblical day #1.
Well, of course they do. It would be impossible for a dinosaur to
exist prior to its creation.
>>I know of
>> several christians who explained to me that the fossils must have been
>>placed here as some sort of temptation and that they should be shunned.
Well, has a Christian in any Digital conference ever said that?
>>The references to the 7-day creation, Adam and Eve, Noah's ark, etc...
>>were used to prove that dinosaurs could not have existed.
Again, has any Christian in a Digital conference ever said such a
thing?
>>If one accepts
>>the bible literally, then the explanation is reasonable.
No, the explanation is not reasonable taking the Bible literally.
>>I know of other
>>christians who do not take the bible so literally and believe that
>>dinosaurs existed in the traditional sense. Apparently, your believs
>>are some shade of gray between those two.
This is a strained dichotomy. I don't believe there exists a significant
enough to mention group of Christian people that believe dinosaurs
didn't exist as to compare them with the group of people claiming to
believe the Bible yet believe evolution. The better comparison is
between people like myself who literally believe the creation story in
the Bible and reject the story of evolution but accept the dinosaurs
existence and the people who disbelieve the creation story in the Bible
and believe the evolution story and its explanation for dinosaurs.
>The analogy, such that it is, that mammals evolved to inherit the
>earth is an amusing one but hardly appropriate.
>Perfetly appropriate. The meek inherited the earth (according to
>archeologist). And you're right, it was just an analogy (clearly
>similar in some ways and equally clearly different in others)
Well, I've never seen the shrew called meek. The meek Jesus referred
to is not related to the size of their bodies.
>Regardless, I'm glad you got a laugh out of it, albeit at my expense.
>-dave
How very odd your response, Dave.
jeff
|
| 1215.7 | | CNTROL::DGAUTHIER | | Mon Feb 05 1996 17:47 | 45 |
| >It was not an intended insult.
"That which is a rose..."
>the fact that you
> consistently build a strawman placing science and religion at odds.
Wake up and face the music Jeff, they are at odds. Maybe not in your
mind, but in the minds of many, they are.
I don't know the views of everyone who participates in this conference.
I wasn't referring to any of them. I hold discussions like these with
many people and ever since I was an undergrad. Some of them held the
view that fossils were temptations. I even recall a "creationist vs
evolutionist" debate on NPR one day where the creationist discounted
fossils as being NOT the remains of huge animals. From these
experiences and others, I claimed and maintain that some christians
hold these views. If you've ever visited the bible belt, you'd see
that they are not in the minority in some areas.
>Well, of course they do. It would be impossible for a dinosaur to
> exist prior to its creation.
I'm curious, exactly when and where do you think dinosaurs lived?
>No, the explanation is not reasonable taking the Bible literally.
Given the right premise (the bible as literal truth) it's perfectly
reasonable. Don't forget, this is the bible that (literally) talks
about a 7-day creation and Noah's Ark and Satan and temptation. Given
these pieces, the "fossils are invalid" story isn't that difficult to
put together using simple reason.
>Well, I've never seen the shrew called meek. The meek Jesus referred
> to is not related to the size of their bodies.
You're right. Stepping up to the line with a shrew, T-Rex wouldn't
stand a chance (hyperbole Jeff, hyperbole)
-dave
|
| 1215.8 | | ALFSS1::BENSON | Eternal Weltanschauung | Tue Feb 06 1996 10:28 | 62 |
| >It was not an intended insult.
>>"That which is a rose..."
Well, Dave, I did apologize.
>the fact that you
> consistently build a strawman placing science and religion at odds.
>>Wake up and face the music Jeff, they are at odds. Maybe not in your
>>mind, but in the minds of many, they are.
Granted, to the extent that scientific dogma attempts to explain the
universe by actively promoting a strictly naturalistic explanation for the
existence of the universe, science is at odds with Biblical
Christianity. But cosmology is only a small piece of "science". What
I mean when I say that science and Biblical Christianity are not at
odds is that there are no scientific "facts" which cannot be reasonably
accounted for in Biblical explanations.
>>I don't know the views of everyone who participates in this conference.
>>I wasn't referring to any of them. I hold discussions like these with
>>many people and ever since I was an undergrad. Some of them held the
>>view that fossils were temptations. I even recall a "creationist vs
>>evolutionist" debate on NPR one day where the creationist discounted
>>fossils as being NOT the remains of huge animals. From these
>>experiences and others, I claimed and maintain that some christians
>>hold these views. If you've ever visited the bible belt, you'd see
>>that they are not in the minority in some areas.
I live in the Bible belt, Dave. I grew up in the Bible belt. I would
say that among the high-school educated your characterisation of their
beliefs (above) is inaccurate. Unfortunately, it is even worse. Many
Bible-believing Christians would ignorantly believe both the
evolutionary dogma and the literal interpretation of Genesis! Figure
that one out!
>Well, of course they do. It would be impossible for a dinosaur to
> exist prior to its creation.
>>I'm curious, exactly when and where do you think dinosaurs lived?
I don't know when they lived and I presume they lived generally close
to where their fossils have been discovered.
>No, the explanation is not reasonable taking the Bible literally.
>>Given the right premise (the bible as literal truth) it's perfectly
>>reasonable. Don't forget, this is the bible that (literally) talks
>>about a 7-day creation and Noah's Ark and Satan and temptation. Given
>>these pieces, the "fossils are invalid" story isn't that difficult to
>>put together using simple reason.
I still disagree with you. There is no Biblically defensible reason
whatsoever to believe that Satan can create anything. The Bible makes it
clear that Christ made everything that was made.
jeff
|
| 1215.9 | messages, not necessarily fact | THOLIN::TBAKER | The Spirit of Apathy | Tue Feb 06 1996 11:12 | 23 |
| C'mon guys.
My own opinion: My faith does not depend on science. My faith
is not subserviant to science. What I believe is self-evident
to me.
Genesis, when not taken as an historical event, is so much more
useful to me than flat dogma. It explains, in *very* basic terms,
the order of things - God is above, the animals below and God
wants us to commune with. He calls. I try to respond. And,
every week, take a break and try to repond a little more than
the other days.
And when Jesus said that the meek shall inherit the earth, He
may have been simply pointing out a principle that's been in
effect since time began. That who's ever on top won't be on
top forever and those on the bottom won't stay there either.
All things pass. Nothing is certain except God's love. Always
present, always closer to you than your breath. Respond.
Embrace.
Tom Baker
|
| 1215.10 | | CNTROL::DGAUTHIER | | Tue Feb 06 1996 13:15 | 35 |
| Re .8 (Jeff)
Not wanting to fall too much ferther down the rathole we're in, I'll
just say that some regard fossil and other scientific evidence as
demonic, some accept it as fact and see conflicting biblical passages
in s symbolic way, and others don't attempt to reconcile them with the
bible. They all have their reasons ("rational"izations) despite the
fact that we may agree or disagree with them.
BTW, apology accepted. Sorry if I misinterpreted.
Re .9
Your belief appears to be based in your faith, and that (by definition)
stands apart from the need for physical evidence or scientific
rationalizations. That's fine and I respect that. You mentioned self
evidence. Rene Descartes started the scientific revolution by
proclaiming the only thing self evident to him... "I think therefor I
am", an entirely different baseline than accepting the bible on faith.
The course this has taken is understandably quite different. It's
weakness is that it only explains a tiny portion of our questions
whereas the bible explains all in one fell swoop. It's strength is
that is uses the same senses and abilities which serves us every minute
in everyday life... a proven set of tools which requires no faith.
But do the explanations science derives represent the truth? Or are
the bible's explanations truth? The Koran's? Ancient Greek
Mythology's? Native American spiritual beliefs? Which approach points
most directly at the truth? Some claim they all do, despite the
conflict we see at times. Others maintain there's only one true way.
Me? Who am I to say.
-dave
|
| 1215.11 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Christ Power & Light Co. | Tue Feb 06 1996 21:01 | 6 |
| I remember a Ron Cobb editorial cartoon depicting dolphins looking above
the surface of the ocean waters to see on shore the distinctive mushroom
cloud of a nuclear blast. The caption: The meek shall inherit the earth.
Richard
|
| 1215.12 | | CSLALL::HENDERSON | We shall behold Him! | Tue Feb 06 1996 23:06 | 9 |
|
I saw a bumper sticker one time that read "The meek are getting ready"
Jim
|
| 1215.13 | | THOLIN::TBAKER | The Spirit of Apathy | Wed Feb 07 1996 09:55 | 6 |
| A Gaham Wilson cartoon has two Eskimos looking at each other
with missiles overhead going in each direction. One says to
the other:
"Well, there goes civilization as they know it."
|
| 1215.14 | What does "meek" mean | CSC32::R_NICKLES | | Thu Feb 08 1996 12:59 | 156 |
| The most important factor in understanding this passage
The meek shall inherit the earth
is to understand what the word meek really means. Let's see what
God's word says about what meek means (the best way to define a word
is to see what God's word says about it in context)
Numbers 12:3
(Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon
the face of the earth.)
Psalms 22:26
The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that
seek
him: your heart shall live for ever.
Psalms 25:9
The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.
Psalms 37:11
But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in
the
abundance of peace.
Psalms 76:9
When God arose to judgment, to save all the meek of the earth. Selah.
Psalms 147:6
The LORD lifteth up the meek: he casteth the wicked down to the ground.
Psalms 149:4
For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek
with
salvation.
Isaiah 11:4
But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity
for
the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of
his
mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Isaiah 29:19
The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among
men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.
Isaiah 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed
me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the
brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of
the
prison to them that are bound;
Amos 2:7
That pant after the dust of the earth on the head of the poor, and turn
aside
the way of the meek: and a man and his father will go in unto the same
maid, to profane my holy name:
Zephaniah 2:3
Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his
judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid
in the
day of the LORD's anger.
Matthew 5:5
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in
heart:
and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Matthew 21:5
Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek,
and
sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.
1 Peter 3:4
But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not
corruptible,
even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of
God of
great price.
Psalms 45:4
And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and
righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
Zephaniah 2:3
Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his
judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid
in the
day of the LORD's anger.
1 Corinthians 4:21
What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the
spirit of
meekness?
2 Corinthians 10:1
Now I Paul myself beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ,
who in presence am base among you, but being absent am bold toward you:
Galatians 5:23
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Galatians 6:1
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual,
restore
such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou
also be
tempted.
Ephesians 4:2
With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one
another in love;
Colossians 3:12
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of
mercies,
kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
1 Timothy 6:11
But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after
righteousness,
godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
2 Timothy 2:25
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God
peradventure
will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
Titus 3:2
To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all
meekness
unto all men.
James 1:21
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and
receive
with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
ames 3:13
Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out
of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
1 Peter 3:15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give
an
answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you
with
meekness and fear:
|
| 1215.15 | | HURON::MYERS | He literally meant it figuratively | Fri Feb 09 1996 11:28 | 6 |
|
In less than 100 lines :^) meekness is to be reverent and humble before
God and to treat *all* people with gentleness, kindness and humility,
even to those who ridicule you.
Eric
|
| 1215.16 | | ALFSS1::BENSON | Eternal Weltanschauung | Fri Feb 09 1996 11:46 | 4 |
|
Good summation, Eric.
jeff
|
| 1215.17 | though maybe not exactly what the author meant.. | PCBUOA::DBROOKS | only connect | Tue Feb 13 1996 08:41 | 4 |
| If "meek" is read as an acronym for Multinational Ever-Expanding Korporation,
I'd say the prediction is pretty accurate...
D.
|
| 1215.18 | | CSC32::R_NICKLES | | Tue Feb 13 1996 14:19 | 36 |
| Ok, I would say that I broke the 100 line rule. But the idea is to
allow the Word of God to interpret the Word of God - So in my view
you can't really define anything in the Word of God unless there
is a scripture that tells you what that particular word or verse
means - by multiple cross references. Yes I can say that is a good
summation, but it isn't a scripture verse that is interpreting the
Word of God. There are so many things out there that are not using
scripture - and while they make sense - that isn't what the Bible
says so by using these statements you are leaving everything wide
open to Man's interpretation and not God's.
some examples:
first a blatant one
God helps those who help themselves - actually if you really believed
this - you can find some scriptures to back up this point, but that
isn't in any scripture context - and actually God really means that
God helps the helpless - and even though there are many scriptures
that a man should work - this in no way means what people imply that
it means.
God's riches at Christ's expense - although this makes a lot of sense
this is nowhere in the bible quoted directly - and by using this
definition of Grace cheapens what Grace really is.....
there are so many others....
The reason why this is such a big issue is that so many times in the
pulpit there are all these things that are being taught that have
nothing to do with God or anything in God's word - and we need
to guard against that - and I hope also that we can keep this notesfile
from anything that God's word doesn't say directly. For we don't
need anything else but his word.
Rick
|
| 1215.19 | | CNTROL::DGAUTHIER | | Tue Feb 13 1996 15:19 | 3 |
| >For we don't need anything else but his word
And where do you find that?
|