Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    By the way, this is not a supporting replies only.  Feel free to rail
    against it.  Let's continue the discussion from the UU topic.
    
    Patricia is absolutely correct in that I used the word "condone" in a
    negative connotation.  If Jesus did not value every religion, which he
    certainly did not, then why would the church, an institution with a
    mandate to present itself spotless before a Holy God want to even
    entertain the idea of valuing a faith doctrine which John the apostle
    referred to as, "Another gospel".  
    
    If there are any ministers out there, I'd be particularly interested in
    your comments!
    
    -Jack

    I should really know better but...

    Pagans are people, too.

    Jesus said to love God and love your neighbor and he said it like
    it was the most important thing you could do.
    
    I submit that if by following a pagan path a person learns to love
    and be in love and approach all with love and celebrate his/her
    association with God, that that person does not sin.  If s/he gets
    there through Jesus or through kissing trees it matters not one dot.

    As far as separation is concerned, one should not intentionally 
    set oneself apart from the world/society without a good reason.
    It is only through living amongst other people that you can learn
    to love them (one by one) and so learn to love God.  In other words,
    you *need* these people if you ever hope to love God.  Don't
    separate yourself from them unless your association with them
    is harmful.  And a pagan who loves God isn't harmful.

    Even if they are harmful, you still need to learn how to love them.
    Without their (unwittingly) challanging your concepts you/we cannot
    evolve, cannot grow to love God.  That camel needs a lot of shaping
    to get through that needle :-)

    We need to learn to love pagans and accept them for who they are.
    Otherwise it is not love.

    We need to learn to love homosexuals and accept them for who they are.
    Otherwise it is not love.

    It doesn't matter what they do, between God and me it only matters
    what I do.  Have faith, God can take care of the rest :-)
    
    Tom

    Tom:
    
    How do you harmonize what you said with Pauls admonition to the
    Corinthian Church and Gods admonition to the Jews as mentioned in .0?
    
    -Jack

    -Jack

    How do you harmonize what Paul wrote and what Jesus said?

    Jesus knew what He was saying and doing.  Paul could only
    guess.  Yes, Paul was inspired, but he was still only human.

    I've often found it confusing how, during Jesus's stay here
    he kept "rebuking" his disciples for screwing up and not 
    understanding.  But, once Jesus is "out of the picture" the
    disciples end up making the rules, especially Paul who never
    even met Jesus in the flesh.

    My faith is in Jesus, not Paul.

    Tom

 ZZ    Jesus knew what He was saying and doing.  Paul could only
 ZZ    guess.  Yes, Paul was inspired, but he was still only human.
    
    Tom, Paul was an apostle out of season and DID in fact meet Jesus on
    the Road to Damascus.  Paul was also a Prophet and received revelation
    directly from God.
    
    "But I say then, that the things sacrificed by the gentiles, the
    sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should
    have fellowship with devils.  Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and
    the cup of devils; ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of
    the table of devils.  Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy, are we
    stronger than he?  All things are lawful to me but not all things are
    expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not."
    
    Tom, love is not always synonomous with valuing diversity and
    tolerance....Jesus clearly displayed this point at the Temple.  I
    submit to you that anybody can still love, and separate themselves from
    the world.  One does not require the other.  
    
    -Jack

    Hi -Jack,

>    I submit to you that anybody can still love, and separate themselves from
>    the world.  One does not require the other.  

    Maybe so.  But not at the level required of us as Christians.

    Jesus did not separate Himself from anyone.

    We are weak and sometimes must withdraw for a while.  But,
    because we are weak we must frequently be challanged to 
    build up our (spiritual) strength.  You can't do it all 
    in a santuary full of people who believe exactly like you.

    Isn't it great having "enemies"?  No one could possibly
    show us what we need to work on quite like an enemy.
    Eventually I hope to love all of mine.  That way I won't
    have anything to fear and wherever I go I'll be with
    people that I love.  Then nothing will get in the way
    of my loving God.

    Don't have any enemies?  Don't worry, God will provide :-)

    Tom

    Well, obviously my enemies are there!! :-)
    
    But again, one can love an enemy, but I believe Christ was teaching us
    that one who worships God cannot be in fellowship with one who worships
    a non god or an idol.  The concept of separation is underscored heavily
    throughout scripture...both in the Old Testament as well as the new. 
    This does not require one to hate somebody in order to be separate. 
    But two people who are unequally yoked cannot serve God together,
    particularly when one does not believe in the God of Israel.
    
    -Jack
         

    By the way Tom, I imagine this topic is uncomfortable for alot of
    Christians because it crosses the line of their comfort zone.  
    
    -Jack

    Tom makes some great points about how the example of Jesus and the
    teachings of Paul are not in synch with each other.  Also that Jesus'
    disciples did make lots of mistakes and there is no reason to believe
    that Paul, although very prophetic in some points, also made lots of
    mistakes.
    
    

    Hello Jack,

>    that one who worships God cannot be in fellowship with one who worships

    I believe that one  who worships God can be anywhere.

    I can worship God in a church, mosque, Jewish temple, Hindu temple
    or in the middle of pagan rites.  It is God Whom I worship.  What
    form it takes matters very little if I am celebrating my closeness
    to Her.

    Now, in my smallness, I can't aways keep clear what I'm doing.  It's
    easy to get caught up in celebrations even if I don't understand 
    what's going on.  This is when it is necessary to excuse myself
    and go where I can sort things out.  If they won't sort, I should
    stay away until I can.

    In the mean time, God has caused me to re-examine myself and where
    I stand and so has given me another opportunity to perceive the
    truth.  I believe that's what this world is for - the good and
    the bad - is all from Him to us.

    See?  I told you grace was everywhere :-)

    Tom

>    See?  I told you grace was everywhere :-)

 
  please define grace.





 Jim

>  please define grace.

    Sure, Jack.

    Grace is whatever God gives to you or does for you to help you
    become closer or to better perceive Her.  Almost by definition,
    this grace cannot be earned or deserved, although, paradoxically,
    it is our birthright.
    
    You can count on it but you can't demand it.

    Tom

>>  please define grace.

 >   Sure, Jack.

     Thanks, Paul.




   > Grace is whatever God gives to you or does for you to help you
   > become closer or to better perceive Her.  Almost by definition,
   > this grace cannot be earned or deserved, although, paradoxically,
   > it is our birthright.
    
   > You can count on it but you can't demand it.

    
     On what do you base that definition?  The Bible says for example "By
     grace ye are saved through faith.."   My understanding of "grace"
     in that usage is "God's unmerited favor..a free gift of God..salvation
     through Jesus Christ though we are undeserving".  Would you agree 
     with that?



 Jim

    

    Opps.  I'm sorry, Jim. :*)

>     grace ye are saved through faith.."   My understanding of "grace"
>     in that usage is "God's unmerited favor..a free gift of God..salvation
>     through Jesus Christ though we are undeserving".  Would you agree 
>     with that?

    Sure.  Grace includes, but is not limited to what you describe.

    Tom

    Tom:
    
    Jesus said to the apostles, "For wherever two or more are gathered in
    my name, there I am in the midst of them."  Therefore, Jesus placed a
    strong importance on pure fellowship and likemindedness.  The concept
    of one praying to God and one praying to a false god is inappropriate
    and offensive to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.  God is a jealous
    God and can be provoked to wrath.
    
    Grace is something we get that we don't deserve.  Mercy is being
    sheltered from something we deserve.  The gifts of the Spirit are the
    tools God gives us to know Him better.  
    
    By the way, I noticed you refer to God as, "Her".  Why is that?
    
    -Jack

    Hello Jack,
    
>    Jesus said to the apostles, "For wherever two or more are gathered in
>    my name, there I am in the midst of them." 

    Sounds good to me.  But don't let that stop you from engaging the 
    rest of the world.  Gathering, regrouping to reaffirm one's faith
    is important.

>    Therefore, Jesus placed a
>    strong importance on pure fellowship and likemindedness.

    Perhaps, but not to the exclusion of everyone else.

>    The concept
>    of one praying to God and one praying to a false god is inappropriate
>    and offensive to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.  God is a jealous
>    God and can be provoked to wrath.

    God's not in competition with Himself, unless She wants to be :-)
    For example: Hinduism is monotheistic.  It's the same God.  All 
    the other "gods" are simply aspects of the One.
        
>    Grace is something we get that we don't deserve.  Mercy is being
>    sheltered from something we deserve.  The gifts of the Spirit are the
>    tools God gives us to know Him better.  

    Well put.
    
>    By the way, I noticed you refer to God as, "Her".  Why is that?

    Why not?  God is not gender specific.  He's kinda "all inclusive" :-)
    ... which I believe we should all try to be...

    Tom

    
    Tom is obviously pulling everyone's leg.  I bet she thinks sanguinity
    is a virtue!
    
    jeff

>    I bet she thinks sanguinity is a virtue!

    No.  It's a necessity.

    Tom

    BTW:  I am defined by my gender.  You may refer to me as "he".
    The Almighty, on the other hand, has no such restrictions.
    No matter how She is refered to, it is inadequate.

    
    
    GREETINGS IN THE NAME OF OUR LORD AND SAVEOR JESUS CHRIST.
    
    BLESS HIS HOLY NAME.GOD HAS BEEN SO GOOD AMEN!!
    
    I JUST WANT SAY BY READING THE WORD OF GOD FROM COVER TO COVER I HAVE
    NOT SEEN THE WORD "SHE"IN IT.AS BEING CALLED?THE FATHER HAS ALOT OF
    NAMES FROM THE OT,TO THE NT.I WOULD SAY TO YOU MY FRIEND LOOK UP THE 
    NAMES OF THE FATHER.
    

>    BTW:  I am defined by my gender.  You may refer to me as "he".
>    The Almighty, on the other hand, has no such restrictions.
>    No matter how She is refered to, it is inadequate.


 Well, let's see..we have God referred to as our Father, Jesus refers to Him
 as his, and the Father, all through the Bible we have God referred to as "He". 
 Or is there some other source for your reference to God as "she" or "Her",
 etc.



 Jim

re Note 1207.20 by CSLALL::HENDERSON:

>  Well, let's see..we have God referred to as our Father, Jesus refers to Him
>  as his, and the Father, all through the Bible we have God referred to as "He". 
>  Or is there some other source for your reference to God as "she" or "Her",
>  etc.
  
        Many things without gender are customarily referred to as if
        they had a gender.  For example, we traditionally call ships
        "she".  This in no way means that ships have female gender. 
        Someone who called a ship "he" would be committing no error
        greater than being unconventional.

        Bob

re .21

 Bob,
 
 I would disagree that it's just uncoventional, Jehovah is a person (with
 feelings) and the Universal Sovereign and as such makes known how people 
 should address him (not the other way round). Jesus even gave his disciples 
 a model prayer, commonly known as the lords prayer, to follow. In it he 
 addresses God as Father as he does in many other prayers (Matthew 6:9, John 17). 
 Jesus admonitions his disciples not to call anyone by the title of father, 
 for this is assigned alone to Jehovah "Moreover, do not call anyone YOUR 
 father on earth, for one is YOUR Father, the heavenly One." Mathhew 23:9 NWT. 
 Should not one accept how God wants to be known, for one wouldn't want to 
 show disrespect to Jehovah or his Son Jesus. Ofcourse, many don't accept 
 God's Word as coming from Jehovah and refer to God as they see fit. To me, 
 having been studying the Bible, this is like disregarding instructions from 
 a sovereign ruler just because it was penned by one of the leader's secretaries.
  
 But false religion is all about deviating from what God identifies as true
 worship (John 4:24). Many times in the Hebrew scriptures we see Jehovah 
 sending his prophets to direct the Israelites back in the ways of true worship.
 This is in itself shows that God does show a keen interest in how his servants
 should worship and address him. However, often they took no note even going so
 far as to show total hostility for accepting the message would have meant giving 
 up how they wanted to worship. For this reason humility is an essential quality
 for all followers of Jesus.

 Phil.

    Hmnmm.. I try to worship by the heart, not by the book.
    I believe the book provides guidelines, metaphors and 
    inspirational poetry.  Ultimately it is the heart that
    connects with our Lord.

    The world is here for our growth.  That much is grace.
    How can we hope to receive that grace when we separate
    ourselves from the oceans that are already here?

    We are not graceless.  We are simply blind to the mountains
    that surround us.  I submit that we should not reject it.
    
    Jesus didn't avoid anyone because He was afraid He might
    be "poluted" somehow.  He had enough faith to know that,
    whatever happened, He'd still have His connection with
    the Almighty.  Ultimately, that's all that mattered.

    I think we can try to show some of that faith.

    Tom

    Tom:
    
    Since we have goddess followers and believers in other gods other than
    THE God, I believe the semantics used are important.  In other words, I
    believe somebody can be worshiping another god.
    
    -Jack

>    Since we have goddess followers and believers in other gods other than
>    THE God, I believe the semantics used are important.  In other words, I
>    believe somebody can be worshiping another god.
    
    Many people in here also take a human configuration of paper and ink
    and worship it as if it were Divinity itself.  These people can get
    very uppity when others refuse to worship the text.
    
                                   Patricia

    -Jack
    
>    Since we have goddess followers and believers in other gods other than
>    THE God, I believe the semantics used are important.  In other words, I
>    believe somebody can be worshiping another god.

    I believe it's the same god.  Even is it isn't, so what?  That's not
    my problem.  My problem, my duty, my joy is to learn to love these
    people, regardless of what they think.

    It's simple, but not easy...

    Tom

    
    Patricia, why do your persist in saying that people in here who believe
    the Bible to be God's Word to humanity worships the Bible?  Not even the 
    strictist, most literal inerrantist would worship the Bible.  You do your 
    cause only harm by such mendacity.
    
    jeff

    Hi Jeff,

>    Patricia, why do your persist in saying that people in here who believe
>    the Bible to be God's Word to humanity worships the Bible?  Not even the 
>    strictist, most literal inerrantist would worship the Bible.  You do your 
>    cause only harm by such mendacity.

    I find such exchanges as we have here to be both inspiring and 
    illuminating.  They cause me to question my own faith.  If I need
    to modify it then so be it.  I want my faith to be dynamic.  I
    don't want it to get stuck.  Because of this, my faith grows stronger.

    I can see how Patricia could get this impression.  It may be 
    incorrect but it bears looking into.  If you find it's not true,
    dismiss it.  Otherwise, she may be pointing out something that
    you don't see.

    I can't see into your heart or into the heart of anyone here,
    so only you can answer this question.

    Tom    

    
    Thanks Tom but you added nothing just then to my journey.  I asked
    Patricia, not you.
    
    jeff

    Tom:
    
    You are absolutely correct in that we are to show our faith by our
    love.  However, don't confuse love with compromise.  The two are
    mutually exclusive.  One can love another of different faith, this
    doesn't involve rocket science.  I am speaking of likemindedness in
    fellowship.  
    
    In regards to your, "so what" comment, this is very important.  The
    greatest commandment is to love the Lord with all your heart, soul and
    mind.  Worshipping the created instead of the creator does not make
    good bedfellows with one who believes in the God.  Furthermore, God
    looks upon those who worship other gods as fools.  We are called to
    love each other but love does not necessitate conformity!
    
    -Jack

    Jeff,
    
    I am constantly being told within these notes files that you and I can
    only know God though what is written in the Bible. If I believed a
    certain set of assumptions about the nature of the Bible, then I can
    know God.  If I do not believe those assumptions about the Bible, then
    I cannot know God.  That equates to belief not in God, but believe in
    the Bible as a source of Divine Authority.  In my faith journey, that
    equates to idolatry.

| <<< Note 1207.27 by USAT05::BENSON "Eternal Weltanschauung" >>>


| Patricia, why do your persist in saying that people in here who believe
| the Bible to be God's Word to humanity worships the Bible?  Not even the
| strictist, most literal inerrantist would worship the Bible.  You do your
| cause only harm by such mendacity.

	Jeff, most Christians state that through Jesus, they will be saved. But
then again, after that, many Christians say you must believe the Bible is the
inerrant Word of God. That might be where Patricia is getting the worshipping
the Bible stuff from. I know that's where *I* get it from. If Jesus is the way,
then the Bible should not be in there as a condition.


Glen

| <<< Note 1207.29 by USAT05::BENSON "Eternal Weltanschauung" >>>


| Thanks Tom but you added nothing just then to my journey.  I asked
| Patricia, not you.

	Gee, too bad, huh? 

    
    Patricia, as I said, your mendacity is apparent.  First of all what you
    think you are being told is off a bit making it a false statement. 
    What you're being told is that what you espouse as truth and what you
    attribute to God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, is in *contradiction with* the
    Bible, the only existing, proven, tested, testament to the Christian God.
    This is not the same as your characterization.
    
    And you continue to promulgate this falsehood, thus my original
    question.
    
    jeff

    Hello Jack,

>    I am speaking of likemindedness in fellowship.  

    By fellowship do you mean worship?  If so, yeah.  That makes sense.
    What's the big deal?

    In our smallness there are times when we need to regroup with likeminded
    people.  In our smallness we sometimes need to keep our guard up
    because we are still insecure in our faith.  So, periodically, it 
    is healthy to go to a place where we can let our guard down.

    But there is a danger here of becoming exclusive; of locking everyone
    else out of our lives, not just periodic worship times.  I believe 
    this is bad.  It's where distrust and wars start.

>    In regards to your, "so what" comment, this is very important. 

    My "so what" comment had to do with what *other* people are doing.
    If they're "doing it wrong" that's between God and them.  It's not
    up to me to correct them.  It *is* up to me to learn to love them.

    I think we have agreement on this last (love) point.


>    The
>    greatest commandment is to love the Lord with all your heart, soul and
>    mind.  Worshipping the created instead of the creator does not make
>    good bedfellows with one who believes in the God.

    Hmmm... Money comes to mind.

    But creation is simply a pointer to the Almighty - a hint of further
    greatness.  I believe that by loving the created (which we can see)
    *can* lead us to love God (Whom we cannot see).	 And, yes.  Lots of
    people get it wrong.  I get it wrong from time to time.  But I think
    it's better to keep at it and keep making mistakes than to pull back
    and not try it at all.  God may laugh (or cry) when we screw up but
    She'll always forgive us if we're sincere.

>    We are called to
>    love each other but love does not necessitate conformity!

    No argument there :-)

    Tom

    ZZ    It's not
    ZZ    up to me to correct them.  It *is* up to me to learn to love them.
    
    Hello Tom, well I have to disagree with you on this point.  It is a
    scriptural precept to admonish one another, rebuke if necessary toward
    Christ centeredness.  Remember John the Baptist..."Herod, it is not
    right for you to have your brothers wife!"  John showed love through
    rebuke and consequently lost his head over it!  Like I said, love does
    not necessitate conformity and many times love requires honesty and
    reproof!
    
    -Jack

    Hello Jack,

    I think we've moved from that it's sometimes prudent to retreat
    into our own sanctuary from time to time to whether or not we
    should tolerate people worshipping the "wrong" way.

    We do not understand all the ways of God.  I believe there are
    as many paths to God as there are people.  That's some 5 billion
    at last count.  I can't imagine that God, whose very essence is
    Love, would bar such huge numbers of people from getting to Him.

    When I see someone sitting for hours on end lovingly chanting 
    one of the (Hindu) names of God over and over, I can't imagine
    that this person is sinning.  S/He is filling him/herself with
    love and devotion.  Overflowing.  I know.  I've been there.

    Telling someone not to sleep with someone else's wife is one 
    thing but dictating how someone should express one's love to 
    God is something I'd leave well enough alone.

    Tom

re Note 1207.34 by USAT05::BENSON:

>     Bible, the only existing, proven, tested, testament to the Christian God.
>     This is not the same as your characterization.
  
        So you believe, and it is a belief.  You cannot expect others
        to decide based upon a premise you hold and they don't.

        Some of us may feel that if one were to really observe the
        commandment "Thou shalt have no other gods before me", this
        includes belief as well as worship.  Belief in God *must*
        come first, to claim that belief in God must be based upon a
        particular understanding of the Bible is idolatry, in that it
        places belief in that understanding "before God."

        I suspect that there will be always at least three camps in
        Christianity:  those who believe that faith must be based
        upon the Bible alone, those who believe that faith must be
        based not only upon the Bible but also in the light of what
        Christians have always regarded as true, and those who
        believe that faith must be based not only upon the Bible but
        also in the light of all we know, have experienced, and
        reason.

        Bob

    re: .25
    
    I must have missed those notes...

    There is a difference between using the Bible as a guide to worshipping
    God, and worshipping the Bible.  There is also a difference to using a
    more subjective "guide" (feelings, etc.) to worship God that contradicts 
    what the Bible says, and worshipping God with your spirit.
    
    You need a base of reference; and at the same time, you cannot put God
    in a box- He is more than what can be conveyed in the Bible (how much
    more is something we will find out when we come before Him and live
    with Him).
    
    God gave us His word for a base of referece.  We are to "test the
    spirits" against His word.  Spirits that contradict the Bible are not
    from God.  Without this frame of reference, we have nothing to go on,
    and may well worship a god of our own making (idolotry) or be fooled by
    Satan's spiritual deceptions- having no way of knowing what is true and
    what is not.  
    
    If we were meant to find God on our own, without any guide, then God would
    not have left His word for us, and there would be many paths to find
    Him.  But narrow is the path to the Father, and wide is the path to
    destruction- according to His word.
    
    
    -steve 

Hi Tom:

Z    We do not understand all the ways of God.  I believe there are
Z    as many paths to God as there are people.  That's some 5 billion
Z    at last count.  I can't imagine that God, whose very essence is
Z    Love, would bar such huge numbers of people from getting to Him.

Tom, if one is a humanist, then this belief holds merit.  I believe Jesus made 
it very clear in the gospels what truth is in regards to this matter of 
inheriting eternal life.  I believe he said, "Enter the narrow gate, for broad
is the path that leads to destruction and many are those who enter it.  Narrow
is the gate which leads to life eternal and few are those who find it."   

Now I'd like to discuss the tail end of your paragraph above.  First you said..
.I can't imagine...which is the same trap I fall into.  We look at God through
our own filters...or our own idea of who WE think God should be.  In other 
words Tom, we make God in our image and not the other way around.  Last time
I checked, it is the Potter which takes the lump of clay and molds it into an
image, not the other way around.  The second thing I noticed is you mentioned 
God as the absolute essence of Love.  Again while this is true, you have failed
as many of us mortals do, to acknowledge the other attribute of God which is
holiness.  It is important to realize that hominess is JUST as vital and 
important as Love.  Without His holiness, humankind can not be redeemed.
Now consider Gods holiness over the condition of natural man...is eternal 
judgement so hard to imagine now?  It might be if one doesn't understand the 
scope of our sinful condition.
 
Z    When I see someone sitting for hours on end lovingly chanting 
Z    one of the (Hindu) names of God over and over, I can't imagine
Z    that this person is sinning.  S/He is filling him/herself with
Z    love and devotion.  Overflowing.  I know.  I've been there.

Jesus pointed out to us that there is such thing as blind faith...in other 
words Tom, I could sit in front of large stone and bow to it throughout the
day.  It would be of no effect whatsoever.

Z    Telling someone not to sleep with someone else's wife is one 
Z    thing but dictating how someone should express one's love to 
Z    God is something I'd leave well enough alone.

Correct.  If one as a Hindu were worshiping in this manner, then it would be 
between he/she and their god.  I believe Paul was used of God to plant the 
local church and I believe he set the right guidelines under the inspiration
of the Holy Spirit.  That being love, exhortation, admonition, and proper 
instruction in how to worship.  As a conference where most espouse to 
Christianity, I believe I am in the realm of protocol to do this...just as you
as a Christian would be in the realm of protocol to correct me.  
    
-Jack

    My path is narrow.  Your path is narrow.  It is not the same 
    path.  I'm confident my path leads to God.  I can't see how 
    your path can do the same.  I dare say, you are wondering the
    same thing about *my* path :-)

    Holiness - Love.  What's the difference?  I believe love is
    bigger than you think it is.

>Jesus pointed out to us that there is such thing as blind faith...in other 
>words Tom, I could sit in front of large stone and bow to it throughout the
>day.  It would be of no effect whatsoever.

    But if the stone made you think of God it could have wonderful
    results.  The Hindu statues are not worshipped any more than the
    crosses in churches throughout the world.  What is worshipped is
    what these objects represent: God.

    I think you are implying that the Hindu name(s) for God (yes, capital 
    'G' - it's the same God) aren't real, they're false.

    Do we have control over what our God is called?  Did Jesus ever use
    the word "Lord" or "God".  No.  They've been translated.  Does God
    ignore our prayers because we don't use the same pronounciation for
    His name that Abraham did?

    I believe that God is bigger than that.

    Tom

	Steve, I too believe that there is a difference between using the Bible
as a guide, and worshipping the Bible. I believe that if someone puts the Bible
on the same plane as Him, that they are worshipping the Bible as well. If it is
only used as a guide, then it could never be a requirement to be with Him in
the end. And that requirement is what I see so often happening.

    

re: Jesus using the word "Lord".  He most certainly did in the book of 
Matthew Chapter 7, a not insignificant passage of Scritpure:





 21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the 
kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 

 22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in 
thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many 
wonderful works? 

 23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye 
that work iniquity. 

 24  Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I 
will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 

 25  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and 
beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 

 26  And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, 
shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 

 27  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and 
beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. 

 28  And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were 
astonished at his doctrine: 

 29  For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes. 

>re: Jesus using the word "Lord".  He most certainly did in the book of 
>Matthew Chapter 7, a not insignificant passage of Scritpure:

    No.  He never used the word "Lord".  He used another word that
    has been translated into our word "Lord".  My point is that Jesus
    didn't go around speaking English and that if we insist that
    others use the same words we do to call out to God we are deluding
    ourselves.

    God understands His name in all languages.

    Tom

    Tom:
    
    Jesus used Eloihim and Paul used the word Kurios.  The Word Lord had
    different meanings at different points.  Jesus used the word Eloihim.
    That's THE word!
    
    -Jack