Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    
    Hi Dave,
    
    I doubt that "many" Christians believe that Armaggedon will take place
    in the year 2000.  Surely the eve of every new millenium has had its
    share of apoctalyptic forecasts.
    
    "End times" biblical eschatology is a very difficult discipline.
    
    jeff 

 ZZ   Over the weekend, someone was telling me that many christians believe
 ZZ   that Armagedon will take place 4 years from now (year 2000). 
    
    This is categorically false.  Armageddon will in fact happen; however,
    it is the grand finale to what is called the Seven Year Tribulation.
    Therefore, the earliest Armageddon can take place is the year 2003.
    
    This is based on my understanding of dispensationalism regarding the
    end times.  
    
    -Jack

I don't think there is any kind of standard Christian doctrine on 
Armageddon.

Leslie

    Re .2
    
    >>This is categorically false.  Armageddon will in fact happen; however,
    >>it is the grand finale to what is called the Seven Year Tribulation.
    
    Maybe they meant it was the beginning of the 7 year tribulation...
    whatever.  But, for some reason, the changing of the millenia was
    indicated as the point in time when this was supposed to happen (or
    start?).  
    
    I heard 2nd hand from a friend who heard/saw something about this on
    the news.  I admit that this is not a firm basis to argue from. 
    Just thought that others might have heard about this and would be
    interested in talking about.
    
    -dave
    
    
     

>I don't think there is any kind of standard Christian doctrine on 
>Armageddon.

Sure there is.  "You will not know the day or the time."

/john

    Well, if it happens on Jan 1, 2000, that will solve a lot of problems
    caused by old computer programs which assume it's still 19xx.
    
    (:

Well, the new millenium doesn't start until 2001, anyway.

/john

re Note 1198.7 by COVERT::COVERT:

> Well, the new millenium doesn't start until 2001, anyway.
  
        Yes, but only a pedant would insist that the 1900's don't end
        at the end of 1999.

        Bob

    It is safe to ignore those who try to put a date on Armageddon.  
    
    In my understanding of "end times" prophesy, the event that will
    trigger the 7-year Tribulation is the "rapture".  There are no signs
    nor prophetic events that need take place before the church is removed
    from the earth- it could happen today, or many years in the future. 
    If this is indeed the trigger (and it seems logical from my studies),
    then trying to date Armageddon is a waste of time since we have no
    starting point. 
    
    
    -steve 

    Many do try to instill a sense of urgency about the "end times" and
    point to various news items as evidence.
    
    Richard
    

>    Many do try to instill a sense of urgency about the "end times" and
>    point to various news items as evidence.
    
 
 In my opinion there is a sense of urgency (or should be) and the new/events
 of the day (also IMO) support the supposition that we are near the end
 of time as we know it.  I won't put a date on it and won't support anyone
 who does.  However, the events of the day clearly point to something about
 to happen.  

 


 Jim    

    
    Historically, there has been a general sense of urgency at the turn 
    of the past several centuries.  
    
    We don't know the date and time.  We are to watch and pray.  And I 
    sure do hope the pre-trib folks are right!
    
    Mary Jo 
    

    There are events, when looked at from a broad perspective, that seem to
    be linked to "one world government" (mentioned in Revelation) and other
    "conspiracy" thoughts (the mark of the beast, for one).
    
    We may not know the day or the hour, but if we are watchful, we can
    know the season that will trigger the "end times" events. 
    
    I believe that we are seeing a broad playing field being set up for the
    events mentioned in Revelation and Danial (amoung other assorted
    endtime passages).  Will it take 1 year to be set up?  10 years?  50
    years?  Who knows?  Maybe everything is set up now, but God is
    patiently waiting for many to come to Christ before He will pull out
    his church.
    
    We simply have no way of knowing exactly how the world events connect 
    (or even if they really do) to the "end times", only that they may
    point towards the larger picture of things being in readiness for
    prophesy to be fulfilled.  Most things brought to attention are merely
    signs of the times, not absolute ties to any prophetic event.
    
    Take the "mark of the beast" scenario.  Will it be a tattoo or a
    computer implant?  Will it be something else?  We don't know.  It will
    be a mark on the forhead or hand, but what kind of mark?  Currently we
    have the technology to "mark" everyone wholesale in either way (bar
    code tattoo or implant), and we have the technology and the networking 
    to go to a cashless system (it is nearly a cashless system already) that 
    can easily be controlled. 
    
    Bar-code tattoos and computer chips are only pointers- they are not
    defacto evidence that prophesy is being fulfilled.  Prophesy has a way
    of being fulfilled differently from what we expect, and the mark could
    very well be of some new kind of technology created well after the
    church is gone from the world.  
    
    The "sign" is that we have the technology in this day and age to usher in 
    a monetary system that can be utterly controlled (thus those not taking 
    the mark cannot "buy or sell", as they are outside that system).  This
    does not mean that because we have this technology that THE time is at
    hand.  We may yet be here a very long time before God is ready to take
    His church and trigger the "end times" events. 
    
    Another example would be increases in record setting weather and
    geological phenomina (bad hurricanes that hit land, floods, tornados, 
    major earthquakes, volcanic eruptions etc.).  Jesus said that as with
    birth pangs, these events would become more and more frequent as the
    time of his coming draws near.  What we don't know is how bad things
    will get just before He arrives.  
    
    We can count storms and floods and earthquakes and say that we've seen 
    many more in this decade than in the last one, but this
    merely points towards a direction that we already know we are heading
    in (his coming draws closer every day, right?)
    
    Are these things signs?  Maybe.  What do they point out?  That Jesus is
    coming.  But we already knew that.  Increases in these things only
    points towards, perhaps, the proper "season"- which could last for many
    years, for all we know.  I expect that things will get continually
    worse, and then we still can only say "it's getting closer" (something
    we know even without looking to these phenomina).
    
    The best way to look at this is to say "he's coming, be ready". 
    Setting dates is conterproductive.  Looking at world events can only
    suggest that the season is close, but we still do not know how long
    this "season" will last before the church is taken out of the world
    
    I'm not trying to put a damper on "end times" evangelical zeal or
    anything, but the plain truth is that we do not know when the end time
    events will happen this side of the rapture.  And on the other side of
    the rapture, it will be of little concern to the date-setters.
    
    I think current world events point towards a season.  This season will
    usher in the prophesies of Revelation.  Now, if only I knew how long
    this season would last before I get to see my savior.
    
    In any case, there is nothing wrong with instilling a sense of urgency, 
    IMO; it helps one to get their priorities straight.  It's always best
    to be prepared, right?
    
    
    
    -steve

 Isaiah said "Woe to those who call bitter sweet, and sweet bitter"
 (paraphrased).  I believe we are in positions far different from those
 we've been in in past turn of the centuries.  First, technology exists
 to fullfill Revelation's "mark of the beast" scenario. Second, Israel
 is now a nation again.  Third, much of society today seems to want to
 push Biblical Christianity out (unfortunately some of those who claim
 to represent "Biblical Christianity" seem to be intent on providing assistance)

 And we are at a time when society seems to want to be accepting of those 
 things the Bible speaks of as sinful, and rejecting of those things the
 Bible speaks of as good for humanity, and Christians who speak of such
 things are considered "nuts".


 I believe these things are quite significant on the timeline towards
 the day when God says "that's enough".  The sense of urgency for some
 may be triggered by the turn of the century, but that is a smokescreen
 by the deceiver.  The sense of urgency is there because we are at a place
 where when society most needs Christ, it is rejecting Him.
 

 My opinion of course.



 Jim

    
    I hate to burst any dispensationalist bubbles, but there at least two
    other very valid ways to interpret Revelation in orthodox Christianity.
    
    Concerning the time and events of the day, one need not be too keen a
    historian to understand that humanity's moral decay has been constant
    since Adam and then again since Noah. All Christians in all ages have
    understood this.
    
    jeff

    Actually, the beginning of "end times" prophesy fulfillment has already
    begun.  Israel is again a nation.  Not only that, but Jews from around
    the world have fled from their homes to join their brethren in this
    tiny nation- just as the Bible said would happen (on both counts).
    
    This is essential for pointing out the correct season, since the end
    times events in Revelation center on Israel, as a nation.  Other signs
    that point toward this beign the proper season are many:
    
    * Jerusalem is the center of world attention.
    * Technology has made the events in Revelation possible.
    * The trend towards a "world community", which will make control of the
    world possible, when the time comes for this porphetic fulfillment.
    * Increase in earthquakes and severity, record-setting
    storms/floods/etc.
    * The wholesale rejection of Christian values/morals around the world.
    * The increasing popularity in the occult/new age religions/philosophy
    (there is nothing "new" about any of it, actually).
    * Massive increase in UFO sightings/UFO cults (I believe that UFOs will
    play a key role in explaining away the rapture...but that is,
    admittedly, idle speculation- though Revelation does mention "signs in
    the heavens/sky").
    
    
    When looked at as a whole, I think all the signs, as well as outright 
    prophetic fulfillment (you cannot explain away Israel becoming a nation, 
    much less a military power in such a short time, easily), that they all 
    point in the same direction.  We are in the "season", though we can only 
    say that things are getting "close".  How close, only God knows.
    
    
    -steve

re Note 1198.16 by ACISS2::LEECH:

>     When looked at as a whole, I think all the signs, as well as outright 
>     prophetic fulfillment (you cannot explain away Israel becoming a nation, 
>     much less a military power in such a short time, easily), 

        It depends upon what you would mean by "explain away".

        If you take a scattered people, who have always had a strong
        national identity, and who have always had a tradition of
        national destiny, one should expect that some of their
        members would always be looking for an opportunity to fulfill
        that destiny.

        It could be of God, or it could be of strong-willed and
        capable people dedicated to making prophecy fulfill itself.

        Bob

    "This generation shall not pass until all these signs have come to
    pass."  Some people believe Nero was a type of antichrist or a prelude
    to what the antichrist would be like.
    
    -Jack

    .17
    
    But isn't it an amazing thing that the Jewish people kept their
    identity over thousands of years?  Not only did they not have a
    country, but to be a Jew has been a very dangerous/difficult thing over the
    years.  Antisemitism is not exactly a rare attitude throughout history.
    
    Being strong-willed works for a few generations, but normally, rebellion 
    against the "old ways" (by future generations) tends to wean the flock 
    (look at how America is rebelling against its "old ways"...and we are a 
    relatively young nation).
    
    There is more at work here than man's willpower.
    
    
    -steve

    I've heard it said that the stories in Revelations are symbolic and
    that armagedon is a personal thing that we'll each experience on a
    personal level "when the prpoer time comes".  
    
    On the non-personal level, when you look at the world today, it seems to
    be much better than in the early part of the century which had 2 world
    wars, the holocaust, a sundry of smaller wars, the rise of communism,
    the "purges" of Stalin and Mao and the creation of a raging cold war
    and nuclear arms race.  Sounds to me like we're in relative "good
    times".  As far as the weather goes, all we have is a little over a 
    century's worth of datapoints to analyze.  This is hardly a good basis 
    for claiming that the weather's the worst it's ever been.  
    

 I beg to differ as to today's climate versus that of earlier in this
 century.  There are many hotspots all over the world set to go off
 at any time, our children are under assault from every side, the 
 world is rapidly turning from the true God, and Isaiah 5:20 is taking
 place before our very eyes. This world is teetering on the verge of
 destruction.




 Jim

    RE: .21 Jim

    I'm sorry, Jim, but when compared to WW I and Stalin's and Mao's
    purges as well as the Jewish Holocaust followed by the threat of
    imminent nuclear war... I think I'll take the 1990s - even if the
    Republicans *are* in office.
    
    I'd rather spend my time trying to learn to love God than trying
    to find ways to keep my family *ALIVE*
    
    Perhaps we can learn something before some nut goes and tries to
    make things interesting again....
    
    
    Tom

    There are currently 23 conflicts going on in the world today.  The
    magnitude is different but the brutality is exactly the same.
    
    -Jack

>    There are currently 23 conflicts going on in the world today.  The
>    magnitude is different but the brutality is exactly the same.

    And I'm not threatened by any of them.  Nor is my family.

    I can be grateful - believe me, I can be grateful.
    
    Jeez.  There have been days I've been overjoyed simply to
    have my family together.

    I don't have to look for trouble.  It has no problem finding
    me all by itself.
    
    Tom

    >There are currently 23 conflicts....
    
    Relatively speaking, they're peanuts. (emphasis on "relatively")
    
    But maybe there's nothing in Revelations that says that war is an
    indicator, I dunno.
    
    Other "troubled times" when Christianity might have been on the
    decline...
    
    There's good-ole days when Khan was tearing through the known world.  
    And the dark ages after the fall of Rome?  And then there's the good-ole
    black plague (talk about a situation where people might have been
    justified in thinking Armagedon had arrived!).  I've never seen a 
    graph of "Christianity vs Time", but I think you'd see many dips and
    rises in that graph over the ages.  I think I remember the Pope having 
    mentioned this in "Crossing the Threshold of Hope".  You've got to
    remember that even though Christianity might have been on the rise in
    Europe, it could have been on the decline "world wide percentage-wise"
    as populations swelled in eastern Asia and inthe Americas.
    
    
    As to the weather thing, you might be able to say that the weather is
    slightly more turbulent of late, but you've got to remember that you're 
    only looking at the last 100 years or so.  And even back then, major 
    storms in more distant parts of the world weren't even recorded.  Plus
    you've got to consider the entire global picture.  A hundred years is a 
    blip on the screen.  Reading into this blip can be like reading into
    noise.  Relative to events like ice ages,  things are very very stable.  
    Ooooops, I forgot that the ice ages are  thought to have taken place 
    before Day 1 !  (I couldn't resist :-) )
    
    -dave
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

The human mind has an uncanny ability to find what it's looking for.

Richard

 ..and to deny that which is apparent.

    Two classic flaws in thinking...
    
      "It must be, therefor it is"
    
      "It can't be, therefor it is not"
    
    
    

re Note 1198.20 by CNTROL::DGAUTHIER:

        Jesus said that he'd return "at an hour when you do not
        expect him." (Matthew 24:44)

        Jesus was talking with his disciples when he said this.

        This passage has always intrigued me, especially as the
        voices of those who claim that "the second coming is near"
        become louder and more shrill.

        I think we can safely conclude that since so many of Jesus'
        disciples expect Him to return soon, that it is most
        assuredly not soon.

        (I'm sure someone will say "all Jesus said is that we
        wouldn't know the *hour*; he said nothing about the day,
        week, month, year, etc."  Yeah, whatever.)

        Bob

    re: .29
    
    By your logic, Jesus will never come.
    
    Jesus said we would not know the hour or the day, but that if we were
    vigilant, we would know the season.
    
    Both my above, and your Matthew 24:44, is talking about the rapture.
    I think that Matthew 24:44 may also have a parallel with his Second
    Coming, as the world will not expect it (but that's beside the point).
    
    Jesus also said that when certain signs come to pass, look up, because
    your salvation is close at hand.
    
    We are not ignorant of the season (which most assuradly is a long span
    of time, since I believe the season began with the refounding of
    Israel), unless we choose to be.  This does not mean that we will be
    expecting Him at the very moment we are taken up to be with Him.
    
    
    -steve

re Note 1198.30 by ACISS2::LEECH:

>     By your logic, Jesus will never come.
  
        That's your logic.

        There are a couple of alternatives (at least):

        1) the Church matures to the point where it is always ready
        just because it is told to do so and not because it thinks it
        knows Jesus is coming soon.

        2) Jesus has already come again.
          
>     Jesus also said that when certain signs come to pass, look up, because
>     your salvation is close at hand.
  
        That event was in the future as Jesus spoke, but salvation
        was fulfilled in the first century.

        Bob