Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    It would seem this would apply to those who believe the Old testament
    accounts are folklore.
    
    "For as Jonah spent three days in the belly of a fish, so too shall the
    son of man spend three days in the depths of the earth."
    
    To somebody who regards Jonah as a myth, does this fit the topic??
    
    -Jack

    Still waiting for an example...

        My favorite example of this is "The Emperor's New Clothes".

        This story is profoundly true.

        However, I don't actually believe that it describes an actual
        historical event, i.e., it isn't factual.

        The truth of the best stories doesn't depend on factual
        truth.

        Bob

    that's fiction.  Richard said factual.

re Note 1167.4 by OUTSRC::HEISER:

>     that's fiction.  Richard said factual.
  
        You've got me wondering -- if you can't successfully read .0
        (one sentence), what can you read successfully?

        Bob

goats can fly
i own a goat
---------------
my goat can fly


under what circumstances does the conclusion here "my goat can fly"
become true.

certainly the syllogism is logically true.

the first premise "goats can fly" is not factual. at least it hasn't
been proven yet, but with a bit of goodwill i may be able to convince you,
that given time, i can prove that goats can fly? :-)

which leaves the second premise "i own a goat". that's for me to
know now, isn't it :-)  i don't own a goat but i could lie.

and given your goodwill for the first premise and the lied truth
for the second, would that make the conclusion, true on goodwill,
or false because the first premise is a lie?

i have to check my books on logic, there are some weird examples
on truth...


have a nice (coming) week!


andreas.

    Reminds me of my logic class in college..
    
    	"If the moon is made of green chese, then I can fly" is a true
    		statement.

    Bob, the word "fiction" isn't in .0

re Note 1167.8 by OUTSRC::HEISER:

>     Bob, the word "fiction" isn't in .0

        Then what, pay tell, do you think Richard might have meant by
        something that was "not factual"?

        Bob

    	This is a stupid nit to pick, really.

re Note 1167.10 by CSC32::J_OPPELT:

>     	This is a stupid nit to pick, really.
  
        Not at all, because it's the other side of the coin that the
        literalists so often like to use.  Literalists love to claim
        that if the universe wasn't created in 6 days, if Adam and
        eve didn't literally sin by eating from a literal forbidden
        tree, if the red sea didn't literally part for the people of
        Israel, and on, and on, and on, then all the teaching derived
        from the Bible is trashed and untrue, we are still hopelessly
        lost, etc.

        Bob

    	Well if you find fault with that sort of reasoning (as you seem
    	to be saying here) then why do you use it in return?  The nit
    	is still stupid to pick, and you only exacerbate the issue by
    	supporting it with faulty methods.
    
    	OK, so let me redirect what I was originally trying to say but 
    	set off my point in the wrong direction.
    
    	The discussion here seems combative instead of constructive.  From
    	your responses to Mike, to Mike's responses to you, and Mike's
    	reply in .2, right up to the basenote itself.  And perhaps my
    	responses too (though the baby's diapers don't smell as bad to
    	his parents...)
    
    	What is the real purpose here?

1121.113

>    the parables of Jesus are not fictional and are factual.  They are
>    spiritual truth.

I don't get it.  I don't get why you keep saying these kinds of things here,
Mike.

Jesus' parables were extended metaphors.  Metaphors do have the capacity
to convey truth.  But to say a metaphor is factual...!?

Richard

.2

As has been pointed out (See 1121.95, 1121.98, 1121.106, 1121.107, 1121.108,
1167.3), many things that may or may not be factual -- and I believe fiction
fits quite well into this category quite well -- may still be true.

The allegory, the fable, and the parable may express truth while not being
an account of actual events.

Add to these poetry and wisdom.

Folk sayings and proverbs may be true without being based in scientifically
verifiable fact:

	A penny saved is a penny earned.
	A stitch in time saves nine.
	Patience is a virtue.

Jesus said:

(John 8:32, KJV)  And ye shall know the �truth,� and the �truth� shall make
you �free.�

He did not say, "Ye shall know the facts, and the facts shall make you free."

  Isaiah 55:12 (KJV) For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with
  peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you
  into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap [their]
  hands.

  Psalm 98:8-9a (KJV) Let the floods clap [their] hands: let the hills be
  joyful together before the LORD;

Mountains and hills singing?  Trees and floods clapping hands?

Are these images based in fact or truth (or something else)?  My guess
is that many, if not all, will say "truth."

Richard

    .1
    
    I believe the story of Jonah is not based entirely in fact.  I also
    believe that whether it is or isn't misses the point.
    
    Permit me to suggest starting a new topic on Jonah.

    Also see topic 840, "The Sign of Jonah."

    Shalom,
    Richard
    

>I don't get it.  I don't get why you keep saying these kinds of things here,
>Mike.
    
    Because I'm not allowed to let my guard down in here.  I have to
    question everything.  And most of all, there is no fiction in the
    Bible.

>Jesus' parables were extended metaphors.  Metaphors do have the capacity
>to convey truth.  But to say a metaphor is factual...!?
    
    What threw me off here is the possible notion from someone in such a
    statement that Jesus didn't exist, or that the parables weren't from
    Jesus, or that the parables didn't contain spiritual truth.
    
    Mike

I've heard some say that God is the Truth (as in God=Truth).

To me, a truth in a generalized concept of reality. (wheeew!)

And facts?  I think of them as the opposite of "generalized" reality, perhaps
expressed here as "particular" realities, the building blocks of truths.

Truths are consistent with reality.  Lies are inconsistent

Truths can exist independent of humanity.  Some truths address humanity.

I can live with the idea of God=Truth.

(IMO)

-dave