Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    I'm not sure about definitions.  I have however, always held the
    opinion that atheists do not exist.
    
    Now one may take exception to this line of thinking.  However, I
    believe that we have indwelt in us...as human beings, the urgent need
    or craving to worship some sort of deity or higher being...even if it
    is ourselves.  Even the Humanist Manifesto acknowledges the idea of
    worshiping self.  "We cannot be saved, we must save ourselves."
    
    During the plagues of Moses time, one of the plagues was lice.  Believe
    it or not Lice in that society was one of their gods...and the true God
    of Abraham gave them exactly what they wanted...their god.  It is quite
    interesting that a nation with their intelligence would call to worship 
    something in league with vermon.  And yet this is exactly the case.
    
    -Jack

Worship lice?  Hmmmm... I remember having been taught that the ancient
Egyptians worshiped the Sun above all else (Ra).  Minor dieties were all
spiritual beings but sometimes depicted to man in the form of animals.  Lice?  
Why not lice I suppose.  At least they're living things.

But I agree that the point is "worship".  I've heard it claimed that the
instinctual fear of mortal AND spiritual death, or termination, is the main
driver in man's desire to believe in an afterlife.  It's comfortable to 
believe that you're "real" life is never really threatened because there's 
an afterlife.  Second to that is the uncomfortable feeling that, while
living, man is pretty much at the mercy of a non-caring physical universe
that makes things like floods and storms and droughts with no regard to how
it will affect man.  Belief in a diety or dieties who have the power to
control these things AND who care for man gives man a say in what happens 
here in this life on earth (another comfortable feeling sought by man).

And so, the ancient Egyptians, and the ancient Greeks, and the ancient
cultures of the east and of the Americas etc... all had their different 
religions, gods, myths, etc... .  They all seemed to satisfy the emotional 
and psychologicals desires of immortality and control.  One question that 
I've been battling with for a long time is why the Judeo/Christian religion(s) 
any fundementally different from all the others.  I mean if you were an alien 
who traveled to the earth and studied it's people, cultures and religions
in a very objective, unbiased way, why would Christianity stand out as
being truer or more correct or the only true belief?

-dave

Re: .1 Jack

>    Even the Humanist Manifesto acknowledges the idea of
>    worshiping self.  "We cannot be saved, we must save ourselves."
    
Saving ourselves does not mean that we should worship ourselves.  It means
that the human race is responsible for solving its own problems.  Instead
of looking for supernatural assistance we should recognize that it us up
to each of us to work together to make this a better world.

				-- Bob

re .2

>                                           I've heard it claimed that the
> instinctual fear of mortal AND spiritual death, or termination, is the main
> driver in man's desire to believe in an afterlife.  It's comfortable to 
> believe that you're "real" life is never really threatened because there's 
> an afterlife.  


i don't think you can argue that there is necessarily a human desire for 
afterlife. in the more sophisticated ancient world (confucianist/taoist china)
the concept of afterlife was largely absent. 

in less sophisticated, traditional/ancient societies, there are/were, apart 
from natural gods (deities derived from nature) also the ancestoral spirits 
and a belief in a form of afterlife. this sort of belief (prevalent in the 
primitive europe of 2000 years ago) provides a fertile ground for concepts 
of afterlife as taught by the leading mediterranean world religions 
(ie. christianity and islam).

i think it is more credible to argue that the christian concept of afterlife
is a human implant rather than necessarily a basic human need. to put it 
somewhat cynically, that the theological concept of afterlife is a particular 
achievement of early christian theologians. this concept conveniently lends 
itself for defining a code of conduct and a reward system (with the biggest 
reward being afterlife) and is one which was also assumed later by islam.

the main rationality of such a concept is to keep the masses at bay by means
of a universal faith and to secure the position (influence) of the priesthood.
it is a concept which has worked well for many centuries.





andreas.

ask yourself this question.

what makes your life more valuable? if you have only ONE, or if you have
one followed by an afterlife.





andreas.

I tend to think that most, or at least many religions have a concept of an
afterlife.  At very least, they have a notion of a spiritual realm that
exists outside of the physical universe.  Starting with archeological finds 
of how prehistoric people handled their dead, through similar practices by
the ancient Egyptians, the notion of Hades in Greek mythology, Vallhalla
(sp) in the Norse mythology, etc... .  I agree that the eastern notion of a
PERSONAL afterlife is not there, but then so much of the religion of that
region revolves around dissolving the notion of SELF that a 1-for-1
comparison is a difficult thing to assess.  I suppose one might say that,
like the Buddah, if you free yourself from the baggage associated with the
notion of "myself", and you're "one with the universe", then your afterlife 
(if you will) is as real as the universe is real.  Other theologies of the 
east, like Hinduism, believe in reincarnation (afterlife?).  And others, like 
those found in Tibet, have a strong and elaborate notion of an afterlife.

I should take the opportunity to change my use of the word "need" to
"desire" when I said that there's a human "need" for an afterlife.  It's
not a need as food, shelter, etc... are needs.  But I still maintain that 
quelling the idea of one's spiritual death is a strong "desire".  

>>what makes your life more valuable? if you have only ONE, or if you have
>>one followed by an afterlife.

I suppose believers in an afterlife would only claim to have ONE life as
well.  The fact that you may have inhabited a body in the physical universe
for a time (whatever "time" means) is just a stage of your single life which
spans into the spiritual realm.


-dave

.1
    I'm not sure about definitions.  I have however, always held the
    opinion that atheists do not exist.

Now wait a minute, uh hang on, wait, I'm fading away, help!!!!

    is ourselves.  Even the Humanist Manifesto acknowledges the idea of
    worshiping self.  "We cannot be saved, we must save ourselves."

Jack, I can assure you that you are wrong in this, but I know you won't 
believe it. All I can say is that I do not have a god shaped hole, and I do 
not worship myself. 

Steve

    I only believed because of what Romans 5:5 said hit me one day.
    On my own, I never would have bothered.
    
    j