Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

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Note 1145.31                      Faith/Reason?                         31 of 54
TINCUP::inwo.cxo.dec.com::Bittrolff "Spoon!"         25 lines   2-OCT-1995 16:27
                              -< Faith is Faith >-
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To the base note,

I began participating in this conference in order to get a better 
understanding of why intelligent people buy into this stuff despite the 
fact that I (as another intelligent person) can see no *rational* basis for 
doing so. 

I believe that I have begun to understand, and the answer is faith. There 
are no arguments that I consider logical to support belief. In the end, 
just as you have found, it comes down to faith. 

Although I'm sure that there are as many reasons for faith as there are 
people that have it, there seems to be a few general categories that people 
fall into:

1. Those that were taught to believe ('It's true because I say so')
2. Those that had a 'need' to believe (the 'God shaped hole')
3. Those that had some sort of physical (or mental) experience that they 
   could explain by believing ('Spoke to me')

Although I'm sure that there are some, I have yet to meet anyone that 
started with an open mind (not pre-disposed) and believed because 
observable facts left them no choice...

Steve

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Note 1145.34                      Faith/Reason?                         34 of 54
TNPUBS::PAINTER "Planet Crayon"                      18 lines   3-OCT-1995 12:39
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    Re.31
    
    Steve,
    
    I am intrigued by your 3rd 'category', since by your definition I seem
    to fall into it.
    
    My own direct experiences, I did not find, came from any pre-disposed 
    belief or from observing undeniable external 'facts'.  If anything, 
    these experiences completely shattered what had previously been both my
    logical and scientific observations/conclusions as taught in western
    science (I was an engineering science major), and any residual 'faith' 
    or beliefs I had dictated/taught to me as a child by the western
    Christian religion (I was raised Baptist, Episcopalian, and Methodist).  
    
    Cindy  
                                                 

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Note 1145.38                      Faith/Reason?                         38 of 54
TINCUP::inwo.cxo.dec.com::Bittrolff "Spoon!"          9 lines   3-OCT-1995 17:17
                    -< It can't be explained to another... >-
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Cindy,

By definition, your experience is (I assume) intensely personal, and would 
not transfer to another. Therefor, unless one experiences something along 
these lines it is incomprehensible to them (or at least to me). That is why 
I can't really argue with this type of belief, although I can't imagine a 
real world experience that would cause me to believe.

Steve

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Note 1145.40                      Faith/Reason?                         40 of 54
TNPUBS::PAINTER "Planet Crayon"                      15 lines   3-OCT-1995 18:10
                        -< in a way, you are right... >-
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    Re.38
    
    Steve,
    
    Time is short, so this will be brief - more later.  
                               
    I relate my experiences to the taste of a strawberry.  Nothing I say 
    or do could convince you to believe that it tastes as I describe it, 
    however if you yourself tasted it, then there would be no need for 
    'belief or faith', since then the experience would be a shared one. 
    Then if you shared a strawberry with others to taste, they would then
    have a similiar experience.   
    
    Cindy

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Note 1145.48                      Faith/Reason?                         48 of 54
TINCUP::inwo.cxo.dec.com::Bittrolff "Spoon!"         10 lines   4-OCT-1995 16:02
     -< Yes, but the same experience can have different meanings to diff >-
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.40

Cindy, 

Good analogy, that is what I was trying to convey. Now keep in mind that one 
person may taste a strawberry and love it, the next might hate it, or even be 
killed by it if they happen to be allergic. Same experience, different 
interpretations.

Steve

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Note 1145.54                      Faith/Reason?                         54 of 54
TNPUBS::PAINTER "Planet Crayon"                      16 lines   4-OCT-1995 17:19
                           -< spiritual experiences >-
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    Re.48
    
    Steve,
    
    Now this is getting interesting!  Indeed, I agree with you.
    
    My experiences in this area - with the exception of one or two - are
    not terribly personal, so I share them openly.  
    
    I was just thinking though, to create a new topic and move our
    discussion there so that the other folks might continue on continuing
    on here...(;^)  So, will create a new note for 'spiritual experiences',
    and feel free to repost your earlier note if you'd like.
    
    Cindy 

{From: "Helping People In Spiritual Emergency", by Emma Bragdon, Ph.D., p.71-3}

Spiritual Emergence
-------------------

Spiritual emergence is the process of personal awakening into a level of 
perceiving and functioning which is beyond normal ego functioning.  The 
process may at first include any of the following phenomena: 
out-of-body experiences, occult phenomena, precognition, clairvoyance, 
astral travel, and perception of auras.  At its peak, spiritual 
emergence is the experience of the ultimate unity of all things, a 
mystical experience, a merging with the Divine which transcends verbal 
description.  Among the positive effects of this process are increased 
creativity, feelings of peace, and an expanded sense of compassion.

...

Spiritual Emergency
-------------------

As spiritual emergence unfolds into new areas, it can bring with it 
elements of surprise about the nature of oneself and one's world.  This 
is true whether someone is actually moving to a hither developmental 
level, or integrating a spiritual experience into a developmental level 
which has not yet attained mature ego functioning.  The disorientation 
and instability that results from intense spiritual experiences in 
either case, can turn a spiritual experience into a spiritual emergency. 
 The phenomena of the crisis may last anywhere from minutes to weeks.

The capacity to integrate spiritual experiences into one's self-concept 
and functioning in the world is the key determinant in the outcome of 
spiritual crisis.  A spiritual experience is more likely to turn into a 
spiritual emergency when:

  1. Someone has no conceptual framework to support the experience,
     with which to understand and accept the phenomenon with equanimity.

  2. Someone has neither the physical nor emotional flexibility to 
     integrate the experiences into life.

  3. The family, friends, and/or helping professionals of a person
     having the experience see the phenomenon in terms of psycho-
     pathological symptoms which have no possibility of being positive.

The pressure people place on persons in the midst of an intense spiritual 
experience to perceive themselves as crazy is often one of the most 
influential elements turning an emergence process into an emergency.  

Conversely, the willingness of a helper to accept the phenomena of 
spiritual experience and to have faith in a positive outcome, is one of 
the most powerful elements in changing spiritual emergency to spiritual 
growth.

...

Hundreds of stories from people who have had spiritual emergencies and 
have been misdiagnosed as mentally disturbed were collected by Ring 
(1984) and the Grofs (manuscript in process).  One woman suffered 
through treatment for a psychotic episode after she had a mystical 
experience at the birth of one of her children.  She had been doing 
hatha yoga for a year, but because her yoga teacher did not emphasize 
the possibility that yoga postures might catalyze a spiritual awakening, 
she did not connect the yoga to her spiritual experience during the 
birth.  In the midst of the delivery, she spontaneously perceived lights 
which put her in a state of awe so profound that she lost touch with her 
surroundings.  Believed to be mentally unstable and incapable of caring 
for her child, she was given medication to suppress the symptoms of her 
supposed psychosis and directed to not breastfeed the child while she 
was medicated.  No one had the knowledge to suggest that she may have 
been blessed with an experience of the Divine or had attained a level of 
understanding which was not only valid, but which gave her extraordinary 
resources as a human and as a mother.

Many types of experiences involving a spiritual awakening have resulted 
in humiliation and been invalidated rather than celebrated.  Because our 
Western culture generally does not accept spiritual emergency phenomena 
as the product of a sane mind, most of the people who have had near 
death experiences (NDE) are inhibited from talking about their 
experiences for fear of being considered and treated as crazy.

.,..

{From: "Helping People In Spiritual Emergency", by Emma Bragdon, Ph.D., p.71-3}

Psychosis and the DSM-III
-------------------------

According to the American Psychological Association's (APA) diagnostic 
manual of mental disorders, the DSM-III (1980), symptoms of psychosis 
include the following:

   1. Delusions.
   2. Hallucinations.
   3. Incoherence or loosening of associations.
   4. Markedly illogical thinking.
   5. Behavior that is grossly disorganized or catatonic.

As is evident, these criteria do not differentiate the delusions and 
hallucinations of the psychotic from the 'word salad' characteristic of 
the psychotic from the jumbled speech of someone trying to articulate 
the noetic quality of a spiritual experience; nor between the catatonia 
of the psychotic with the need for solitude and quiet of the person in 
spiritual emergency; nor the disorganized behavior of the psychotic and 
the bizarre behaviors of a kundalini experience.  Any of the six 
patterns of spiritual emergency described by the Grofs could be 
confused with the symptoms of psychopathology as the following table 
suggests:

Table 3: Symptoms - Spiritual Emergency vs. Psychopathology

Form of Spiritual Emergency         Similar Criteria in DSM-III
---------------------------         ---------------------------

1. Kundalini Awakening:             Autonomic hyperactivity associated
                                       with generalized anxiety disorder.
   Streaming energy, tremors,       Hyperactivity associated with
   sensations of heat/cold,            manic states.
   spasms and violent shaking,      Alteration in physical function.
   involuntary laughing/               Symptom not under voluntary control
   crying, unusual breathing           and psychological factors judged
   patterns, and/or visions of         etiologically evolved-associated
   light.                              with conversion hysteria.


2. Shamanic Journey:                Recurrent thoughts of death.
                                       Loss of interest or pleasure in
   Dreams/visions/sensing-             ritual activities associated
     evoking a special                 with depression.
     connection to animals          Somatic, grandiose, religious,
     and nature.                       nihilistic or other delusion
   Core psychic experiences =          without persecutory or jealous
     death and rebirth                 content associated with 
                                       schizophrenia.


3. Psychological Renewal            Bizarre delusions.
   Through Activation of the           Hallucinations associated with 
   Central Archetype:                  either schizophrenia or psychosis.
                                    Recurrent thoughts of death 
   Preoccupation with death,           associated with depression.
     rebirth, and/or return
     to the beginnings of life.
   Focus on a clash of opposites
     and dramatic resolution of
     this opposition.


4. Psychic Opening:                 Delusions.
                                       Hallucinations associated with  
   Experiences of extrasensory         schizophrenia or psychosis.
     perception, including out-
     of-the-body experiences.


5. Emergence of a Karmic Pattern:   Delusions.
                                       Hallucinations associated with
   Experiencing dramatic               schizophrenia or psychosis.
     sequences which seem to be 
     occurring in a different
     temporal - spatial context.


6. Possession States:               Symptom not under voluntary control.
                                       Loss of or alterations in physical
   Face and/or body involuntarily      functioning associated with 
     take on the character of          conversion hysteria.
     another personage.             Behavior that is grossly disorganized
     Somatic consequences may          associated with psychosis.
     include choking, vomiting,     Hyperactivity associated with manic
     and frantic motor activity.       states.


The difficulty in making these differentiations is that the content of 
the visions and sensory phenomena may be identical in psychosis and 
spiritual emergency.  Thus, differentiating pathological psychosis from 
spiritual emergency must be based on other criteria which enable the 
clinician to make finer distinctions.

...

Summary

Learning how to distinguish between spiritual emergency and mental 
disorder is essential in providing appropriate diagnosis and care for 
people in spiritual emergence.  Persons misdiagnosed may be caught in 
treatment modalities which are inappropriate and even destructive to 
their growth.  Hospitalization for 'disease' is not appropriate and may 
be devastating for a person in spiritual emergency.

from,

.7>  Many types of experiences involving a spiritual awakening have resulted 
.7>  in humiliation and been invalidated rather than celebrated.  Because our 
.7>  Western culture generally does not accept spiritual emergency phenomena 
.7>  as the product of a sane mind, most of the people who have had near 
.7>  death experiences (NDE) are inhibited from talking about their 
.7>  experiences for fear of being considered and treated as crazy.

and

.8> 3. Psychological Renewal            Bizarre delusions.
.8>    Through Activation of the           Hallucinations associated with 
.8>    Central Archetype:                  either schizophrenia or psychosis.
.8>                                    Recurrent thoughts of death 
.8>    Preoccupation with death,           associated with depression.
.8>      rebirth, and/or return
.8>      to the beginnings of life.
.8>    Focus on a clash of opposites
.8>      and dramatic resolution of
.8>      this opposition.



i can well imagine that if you are open for spiritual experiences, then
in the western world, the most dramatic resolution of opposites must be 
in building the bridge between spirituality and science.




andreas.

related to this topic is also the recent discussion, in 

topic 1137   CSC32::J_CHRISTIE   10-SEP-1995    31  A preview of the afterlife


and another, which i found very interesting in

topic 1023   CSC32::J_CHRISTIE   28-DEC-1994    22  Visions and Visionaries


sorry richard, for doing your 'job' here! ;-)



andreas.

I think Cindy has touch upon an important aspect.

There's a hesitation to accept a first-hand encounter with the Divine
as other than a hallucination, the result of an over-active imagination
or the symptom of some mental or emotional disorder.

What's the first thing that goes through our minds when someone tells us
that God has spoken directly to them?

According to Genesis, God seemed to speak quite freely to humans right
up to Joseph.

Shalom,
Richard

>What's the first thing that goes through our minds when someone tells us
>that God has spoken directly to them?
    
    I John 4, Deuteronomy 13:1-5, Deuteronomy 18:20-22, Isaiah 8:20, 
    and Isaiah 9:15.

Why is it that 'talking to God' is treated with sceptisim?

First, if God wanted to, he could end that problem immediately. For 
example, he could deliver a 'state of creation' message on a regular 
interval, to all at the same time. The message could include the names of 
those (tailored to individual audiences) he spoke to personally. 

Second, a fair number of those that believe they talked to God claim that 
he told them to (insert whacked out behaviour here). These people are 
'nuts'. Why is one person that gets a message nuts, but others aren't. How 
can you tell the difference? By your interpretation of the message itself?
Why doesn't God do something like place a halo on the heads of people as 
they carry out his instructions, as a sign? 

Finally, the vast majority of people have not had personal conversations 
with God, if we had then it would be a matter of routine and would probably 
be treated as such.

Cindy, if I may, what were the experiences that led you to your belief, 
since you said that you wouldn't mind sharing.

Steve

    Re: Why?
    
    Deuteronomy 13:3

    
    Re.13
    
    Steve,
    
    Well...God has never actually spoken to me, or anything that direct. 
    (;^)  My experiences have been more subtle, and will share them as time
    permits.
    
    One important point though - this isn't about 'belief' for me. The 
    question, therefore, if you posed to me, "Do you believe in God?", for 
    example, to me is irrelevant and almost even silly.  (;^)   
    
    It's kind of like a native in the African bush encountering someone 
    from a large city, and that person telling the native that the 'silver 
    bird in the sky' actually contained a few hundred people.  The native 
    would probably laugh, thinking that's the silliest thing he'd ever 
    heard...but when the person from the city would take him to airport 
    where he could watch the people boarding and taking off, there would 
    be no need to 'believe' anything, because at last there would be the 
    certainty of experiential knowing...seeing it with his own eyes, as it
    were.
    
    Cindy                                                      

    :-) :-)
    
    Mark 3:20 "And when his friends heard it, they went to lay hold of
               him, for they said "He has lost his mind!".

.15

Cindy, 

Now I'm intrigued. You make it sound as if you have been there, physically.
I'm looking forward to your postings.

Steve

            
    Re.17
    
    Steve,
    
    Where, physically?
    
    I have experienced what is classified in one of the descriptive
    postings as a 'kundalini' experience.  Also, with another person, we
    went on a 'shamanic journey' together.  Then there was one where I was
    in such a state of consciousness that I did not experience anything as
    separate.  In short...it's been a long, strange trip.  (;^)
    
    When these experiences were happening, I had no prior knowledge of
    them, and so they were a bit intense.  Later I was to discover that
    they have been experienced by many, many people throughout the ages,
    and it was quite strange to be reading about my own personal
    experiences in books.  Also, during the shamanic journey, there was
    another person present, and he also had exactly the same experience
    happening.  We compared notes about that experience for about a year
    afterwards.
    
    Cindy

    
    >Although I'm sure that there are some, I have yet to meet anyone that
    >started with an open mind (not pre-disposed) and believed because
    >observable facts left them no choice...
    
    Encountering a demon possesed person (who doesn't want to hear the
    Gospel) will remove all doubt. Luckily I wasn't the target of the
    backlash (whew!). This was one experience that didn't fit into my 
    "theology".   
    

    For a book that draws so much criticism in here, it's interesting to
    see a demoniac's reaction to it.  Even just something simple as opening
    it.  
    

    
    Actually it is particular interpretations of the Bile which draw
    criticism, not the Bible itself. Although, I'm sure this accusation
    will be leveled again.. and again, and again.
    
    Eric

    If I remember right, it wasn't my friend talking about his conversion
    and new life that caused a reaction, it was the quoting of scripture.
    He ran out of things to say, so he opened the Bible and started quoting
    it and the fun started. It's true about the power of the Gospel, but
    until this happened, I never really had it hit home. 
    Afterwards, we (in shock) realized that we were in the presence of
    powers way beyond us. It was a sudden erie stillness that I can't
    describe, you just KNEW there was a presence, but it was at a level
    that you didn't feel any fear, but at the same time it never ocurred 
    to you to do something...and before you knew it, it was over.  
    It sounds corny for sure. I'm not stretching the story.
    It also brought home about unconfessed sin. The person we were with
    brought to light every un-confessed sin my friend had. There was
    that presence all of a sudden, then she spoke in tongues. At the time,
    I didn't think of it as 'tongues'. It was like the words were being
    spoken, but I couldn't understand them or even make them out. It wasn't
    like tongues you hear at a charismatic service.My poor friend was totally 
    embarrased and crushed by what was said. He said no way could anyone know. 
    My *guess* is that possibly either the spirit or God didn't want me to 
    hear his secret sins. I have no idea about that. I'm glad though!
    

    
    Re.19
    
    That's about what Scott Peck said in his book, "People Of The Lie - The
    Hope For Healing Human Evil", when he had his first encounter with a
    possessed person.  It's quite an account.  Peck was trained as a
    psychiatrist, and so presents it from that perspective.  
    
    Cindy  

    In fact it is the idolizing of the Bible that draws criticism in here.
    Just as the prophets themselves criticized worshipping pieces of wood
    and gold, so we criticize worshipping pieces of paper and print.
    
    The Bible does reveal God to those who are spiritual.  The Bible
    however is not God and is no substitute for spirit.
    
                                  Patricia

    Gosh, the ancient Israelites didn't see eye to eye with you on this
    one.  They recognized the law for example as coming from the very
    finger of God.
    
    -Jack

.13> Why is it that 'talking to God' is treated with sceptisim?


is it possible that this skepticism toward a 'living' god is prevalent 
only in the technology-'crazed' western world?

i have grown up in ghana, west africa, and have returned there on several
occasions. when coming to ghana, one striking observation often made by 
westerners is the lively spirituality found in daily life, particularly in 
the rural areas. with traditional beliefs mixed with and integrated into the 
'imported' beliefs of christianity and islam. from the spirit of the nearby 
tree, to the spirit of the sea, to the spirits of the ancestors, and to god, 
the greatest spirit. the spirits are omnipresent and integrated in daily life,
in conversation, in rituals and in prayers. to the extent that, i bet, the 
word 'god' is contained in every third sentence and where god so naturally 
is part of daily life that the idea that god was something detached, becomes 
bizarre.

looking at it from the outside, it seems to me that many of the ghanaians
which i have met have a so much richer spiritual life than most of us here 
in the west, where closeness to god is feared (or so it seems!).




andreas.

    
    Fascinating, Andreas.  I don't know too much about native African
    spirituality, however I have a book written by a native shaman from
    Burkina Faso that I hope to get to one of these days.  I know more
    about the Aboriginal ways of the Dreamtime in Australia (though not by
    much).  
    
    About the integration of the Divine in everyday life with the more
    ancient beliefs and practices - that's the way it is in Brazil as well.  
    I was down there last February, and our Rio native tour guide expressed
    it this way too.  I also know a Catholic priest who goes to Brazil 
    frequently, and does a lot of healing in his practice, which he draws 
    both from Christianity and from the more native energetic ways of 
    working with the spirit and soul.  Lastly, I was in a workshop with a
    native Brazilian shaman a few months ago, and he expressed it in the
    same way as well.  
    
    Cindy 

yes, cindy! i don't know which sense is used for spiritual perception,
maybe it is an extra sense. but i am sure you agree, that here in the
'civilised' west, we must have allowed this sense to degenerate through
lack of use!

i know this goes a bit far (and you make a similar point with what you
wrote on ying/yang and eastern treatment practices) but i am quite sure 
that on the whole, we would be healthier and better off here in the west, 
if we allowed that sense for spiritual perception its place instead of just 
negating it.



andreas.

.18

Cindy,

What triggered the experience?

Steve

.19

    Encountering a demon possesed person (who doesn't want to hear the
    Gospel) will remove all doubt. Luckily I wasn't the target of the
    backlash (whew!). This was one experience that didn't fit into my 
    "theology".   

Demonic possesion is not unique to Christianity. A few questions come to 
mind;

1. If you read the Q'uran to a possessed Christian (or someone from a 
predominately Christian culture) how do they react?

2. If you read the Bible to a possessed Muslim (or someone from a 
predominately Muslim culture) how do they react?

In other words is the reaction to the Bible, or is the reaction to whatever 
religious icon that person expects to have an impact?

Steve

    doesn't even begin to compare, Steve.

what doesn't compare mike? possession by the koran vs. possession by the bible? 
or possession by demons vs. the holy spirit?



andreas.

    the latter: demons vs. Holy Spirit.

>In other words is the reaction to the Bible, or is the reaction to whatever 
>religious icon that person expects to have an impact?

    Bible. 
    
    

    I'm somewhat leary of discussing this subject in here because of how
    you might view me, but I feel it is relevant in defense of the Bible. 
    It seems vague references or allusions don't serve any of us well.
    
    What has really amazed me is what I used to think were metaphorical
    descriptions of God's Word were really applicable in the supernatural
    realm.  It forced me to radically change how I viewed God's Word over
    the past 5 years.  Psalm 119 contains a lot of these (i.e., God's Word
    being a light, etc.).  
    
    Allow me to elaborate on a previous reference to just opening the
    Bible.  I've witnessed a demon-possessed person shriek in horror and 
    cover their eyes screaming, "You're blinding us, we can't see!!!"  just
    by opening my Bible.  What is odd is that I didn't even make the
    connection at first.  The demons themselves said to close the Bible. 
    It was at this point I remembered what Psalm 119 says about God's Word.
    
    Like Jay said, it is an awesome experience to see the effect of His
    Word and to realize that through Christ we can overcome the battle going 
    on in the supernatural realm.
    
    Please don't mistake me for one who worships a book.  I worship the triune 
    God and consider His Word precious and holy.  As Jack said earlier
    about the Jews, I also believe it is from the finger of God and give
    His Word the utmost reverence.  
    
    Finally, in my walk with Christ I've experienced that you don't need a 
    demonic encounter to realize this power, nor would I recommend it.  The 
    power of His word has transformed my life and has helped me overcome 
    personal problems as it strengthened me spiritually.  Please think
    twice before calling me a book worshiper.
    
    thanks,
    Mike

    
    Re.29
    
    Steve,
    
    Unfortunately I'm up against a critical deadline...however you might
    check out note 838.8 in this conference for something similar that
    happened to several of the astronauts.  I will contribute in greater
    detail at a later time - probably next week when the deadline has
    passed.
    
    What triggered the first experience was a hug from a dear friend of
    mine who was visiting from another country.  Several years later I was
    to discover that this energy in the Hindu reference is called
    'shaktipat'.  I read the descriptions of the manifestations, and mine
    fit exactly.  Also my inner changes fit as well (though that would take
    time to describe...though I would find myself suddenly 'knowing' things
    that I'd never studied in this lifetime).
    
    Interestingly, after I had my first experience on 1987, I read an 
    article in New Age Journal in 1988 - an interview of Astronaut Edgar 
    Mitchell on his own experience, and his description of what he had 
    gone through really helped me considerably to put it in a frame of 
    reference I could understand.
    
    Then, two years ago I met him personally and introduced him at a
    conference I was working on in Washington, D.C. (lengthy story)...and 
    last February on my way to Brazil, I stopped briefly at his home in 
    Florida to meet with him for an hour.  Needless to say, I was thrilled.  
    (;^)  It was especially nice to be able to express my thanks to him in 
    person for indirectly assisting me through a rather difficult and 
    challenging time.
    
    Cindy

I think the previous replies have missed my question.

I don't doubt the the posessed feared the Bible. My question would be, in 
Iran for example, would they have the same reaction to the Koran?

Steve

    I got the question :-), I was trying to be PC for once. You can
    probably guess what my opinion is. I'll leave it at that. 

    Unlike Jay, I missed the question.  However, I agree with him.  Demons
    are equal-opportunity-tormentors so they afflict just as many in
    Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist countries as they do here.  My missionary sources
    could be abused of bias, but I've never heard of such a reaction from
    any other book but the Bible.
    
    I am hearing a lot of other good news from missionaries in these
    countries lately.  This month, Christians around the world are uniting in 
    intercessory prayer for the 10-40 Window (10-40 degrees north of Equator 
    from NW Africa to East Asia).  This window contains over half the 
    population of the world, but also the poorest in the world and the 
    smallest representation of Christianity in the world.  could this be a
    coincidence?  Possibly.  Some speculate that its Satan's final
    stronghold because it was his first victory (region of the Garden of 
    Eden).  The spiritual darkness and basic human rights are the worst in
    this window.  There is a topic in CHRISTIAN that lists the cities to be
    prayed for each day.  Pray for God to be glorified in this area and
    especially pray for today's cities: Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, and Gaza. 
    There is a Bible promise of blessing for all who pray for the peace of
    Jerusalem.
    
    thanks,
    Mike

    
    Re.39
    
    >My missionary sources could be abused of bias...
                                    ^^^^^^
    Ah well...musta been the devil made you mistype it.  >;^>
    
    Cindy

    
    Re.30
    
    Steve,
    
    (I'm here at work, compiling a manual that engineering gave me all of 1
    day to enter changes into...*sigh*...)  So, with that whine (;^)...
    
    An interesting thought came to my mind...it is possible that the
    rejection of a religious object by a possessed person could actually
    take place at the energetic level.  So, if the object was created for
    specific religious use (in which case it could be anything with 
    substantially high vibes'), then the literal 'vibes' can be a 
    deterrant to the entity.  The objects are vibrating at such a high 
    and pure frequency that the difference between the two could actually 
    produce some interesting such as an etheric 'electric' shock if 
    contact is made. This contact could affect the energy field of the 
    person possessed (by zapping it up substantially), and make the 
    'entity' (if you will) lose some control of the person possessed.
    
    Not sure of the energetic vibration of garlic, though...(;^)  
    
    I write this, because when I'm in a relatively pure environment for a
    week or so, I can sense and feel the energetic vibes quite acutely. 
    Sometimes I can even see the subtler particles of energy vibrating in 
    the sky on a sunny day.  We all can with practice actually - it's just 
    we've never been shown how, or our rational mind doubts it because it's 
    not our typical concensis reality.
    
    Cindy

    
    .36 (cont'd)
    
    Steve,
    
    The hug from my friend - he is 20 years older than me, and someone I'd
    always respected and admired for the way he lives his life in both work
    and at home with his family.  As for religious beliefs, he's basically
    an agnostic - no strong beliefs one way or the other.
    
    About 30 minutes later after he had departed, I was lying down, and I 
    began to tremble and tears came to my eyes.  I sort of discounted it 
    as a response to being sad that my friend had departed and I would 
    miss his company, but in the background I knew it was more than that.  
    At the time I was 28 years old.  
    
    Time has jumbled some of the events now, but I do recall feeling like 
    I would explode at one point either then, or a few days later - as if 
    some giant mainframe were downloading the contents of its memory into 
    me, a mere 2mb PC. (;^)  I suddenly 'knew' things that I could not
    verbalize or explain or connect to any studies I'd ever encountered in
    school.  
    
    I also became very interested in religion, because that was an area
    that never really made much sense to me.  I went to church early on,
    and Sunday School (all Christian), but it was as if it didn't really
    mean anything.  (For those concerned with the state of my soul, I'll
    let you in on that I was 'saved' in Girl Scout camp around age 10 or
    so, by some well-meaning lady minister. (;^))  So be good y'all, or
    I'll torment you in Christian Heaven too.  >;^>
    
    Anyway, I raced through all the religious, religious philosophical, and
    psychological books I could get my hands on (more along the lines of
    Scott Peck and company, as opposed to Hal Lindsay and Constance Cumbey
    ...though the latter did give me some good chuckles when I picked them 
    up in the stores to flip through. (;^).  Yes - a total irreverent - I
    know.  The article that gave me the most comfort and beginning of an
    explanation as to what had happened to me, was the one by Edgar
    Mitchell in New Age Journal.  He approached it from the western
    scientific frame of reference - since he himself had been through it
    too - and gave me a way in which to view it.
    
    But then a few years later, I went to a yoga ashram called Kripalu out
    in western Massachusetts.  A friend had said it was a wonderful place,
    so I thought I'd check it out.  He was spot on.  I was in the
    bookstore, and picked up a book written by the now-former guru who had
    founded the place (another long story), called "Working Miracles Of
    Love".  I opened the book randomly, and there on the page was an exact
    description of what had happened to me in those moments several years
    ago.  I think in those moments, that's when I realized that the core of
    all the religions is true, and despite the best intentions of those who
    would try to prove otherwise (;^), nothing I have experienced since
    then has changed my view.  
    
    In fact, it has only deepened and expanded since then.  In recent
    years, I have done quite a bit with a Hindu cultural organization
    over the past several years, however I do work with other religions as
    well, to promote mutual understanding and the ability to come together
    to discover the best of what we can all offer and share with each
    other.  These include the Mayans in the Yucatan, a shaman in Brazil, a
    Catholic priest who goes to Brazil, the Seneca tribe in upstate New
    York, and other people including physicist Fred Allen Wolf, and Alireza
    Nurbakhsh who is the representative of the Nimatullahi Sufi order based
    in London.  Also my dear friend, Dr. Lee Sannella, who pioneered
    kundalini research here in the US, and wrote, "The Kundalini
    Experience".
    
    Then all you wonderful people here too - particularly my Cuz'n (;^) 
    - who have provided me with so many insights and challenges for growth.  
    
    One experience after the initial one, I was at Kripalu doing a special 
    breathing exercise and popped into a state of consciousness where nothing 
    was separate, all was Light, and all I could do was laugh.  In those 
    moments, I realized that this is the experience that everybody is 
    searching for, and unfortunately try to find through all the various 
    addictions of the world.  Still though, I know it happened to me, and 
    I pray that each and every person will someday experience that in their 
    life, even for a few nanoseconds.  If I could think of anything to 
    describe it, it would be my direct experience of God.  It just about 
    short-circuited every nerve in my body - it was that intense. (If you
    ever read "Autobiography Of A Yogi", check out the chapter on Cosmic
    Consciousness.  My experience was not quite that intense, but it was
    right up there.)
    
    So...in a nutshell, I have fun.  (;^)
    
    Cindy

mike, cindy, jay, do you really think that energy can emanate from dead 
matter, such as a book? isn't it more likely that the energy is projected 
into the object by the individual. rather than the object being the source 
of energy it is the individual. for example, a possessed person would project 
energy into the bible and then react to the book violently.

a simple test of whether dead matter (the paper, the print, the book covers
of the bible) has energy would be to pack both a bible and a weighty
encyclopedia in thick wrapping paper so that the contents are hidden and
then to present either object to a possessed person. if the (wrapped) bible
contains energy then you'd expect a sensitive person to react to it.

the notion of dead matter containing energy reminds me of an esoteric 
which i know, who works with stones (and minerals). apparently, different 
types of stones are supposed to attract/deflect different types of energies.
similar in function to amulets or other faith sakes (such as a crucifix)
how could you ever prove that these objects actually contain energy rather
than that the energy is being projected into these things? 




andreas.

.39 
    Unlike Jay, I missed the question.  However, I agree with him.  Demons
    are equal-opportunity-tormentors so they afflict just as many in
    Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist countries as they do here.  My missionary sources
    could be abused of bias, but I've never heard of such a reaction from
    any other book but the Bible.

Mike,

Have you ever heard of a (reasonably well) documented case where a 
possessed individual reacted to a bible, but not to the book of the local 
religion. More to the point, has a possessed individual ever reacted to a 
non-bible religious book in the same way as they do to a bible?

If you can show that cases of possession occur world-wide in all different 
cultures to believers of all different faiths, but that *only* the bible 
has any affect on them, it would be a pretty good argument for Christianity 
above other faiths.

Steve

    Re: energy
    
    Andreas, I don't believe energy exchanges can explain voice changes
    (mostly guttural (sp?)) and alterations of physical appearance.
    
    Re: Steve
    
>Have you ever heard of a (reasonably well) documented case where a 
>possessed individual reacted to a bible, but not to the book of the local 
>religion. 
    
    Yes, I have.
    
    >         More to the point, has a possessed individual ever reacted to a 
>non-bible religious book in the same way as they do to a bible?
    
    Not to my knowledge.

>If you can show that cases of possession occur world-wide in all different 
>cultures to believers of all different faiths, but that *only* the bible 
>has any affect on them, it would be a pretty good argument for Christianity 
>above other faiths.

    Works for me, Steve. ;-)
    
    Praise God!
    Mike

.45

Pointer?

Steve

    Sure.  Send me your address and I'll photocopy some stuff.
    
    Mike

re .45


mike, i was asking about the SOURCE of the energy and suggested that 
it comes from within the individual (triggered by projection) and not 
from some external object or from a spiritual source. at least this 
is the theory to explain personality disorders (see possession states
in .8)




andreas.

         
    Andreas,
    
    When my energy field is sufficiently cleared, I can feel the energy
    emanating from 'outside' objects, even with a blindfold on, especially
    when the energy is particularly strong.  I can sense energy from
    crystals, for example.  When I was down in Brazil, I was near a crystal
    that was about 3 ft. high and 1 ft. wide.  It had not been sufficiently
    cleansed in a while, so the energy was on the low side for what it
    could have been, but it was still an awesome experience nonetheless! 
    (;^)  I showed several other people in the group how to feel the
    energy from the crystal too, and when they finally were able to sense 
    it (and not write it off to 'air drafts' or something else), they were 
    quite surprised!  (;^)  They were able to recognize where the energy
    was lower on the crystal, vs. where it was higher - and then I verified
    their experiences.
    
    Several times when I've done energy healing on people, their eyes will
    be closed, but they report that they know (feel) exactly where my hands 
    are...and this is working with their energy field sometimes 6-12 inches 
    from their body.  
    
    Cindy  

    Cindy, are you a faith healer? ;-)

    
    No, Mike...mine is based on direct experience.  (;^)
    
    Who needs 'faith' when you can feel the energy directly?
    
    Cindy

    What is the source of this energy?

    Mike/Cindy,
    
    perhaps that is what the Faith is.
    
    Faith when one feels that energy that connects each one of us one to
    another, we know that the energy is Good and the energy comes from God
    herself(or himself).
    
    It is a shame that some people spend there whole lifes running away
    from that energy out of fear of imaginary devils and demons!

    
    Yes, Patricia - that sounds right.
    
    The energy is what makes up this entire creation...and the physical
    parts of it are energy that have condensed (or stepped down) into
    matter.  It's not so much the source, but rather the energy and whether
    it's blocked or flowing.  Everything is interconnected, and so
    energetically we all have ties to each other and to everything.  
    
    In 'faith healing', when there's a 'laying on of hands', both people
    'have faith' that the healing is taking place, if neither can feel the
    energy.  But since I can feel it - I can also feel it unblocking - then
    this isn't the area of 'faith'...rather it's direct experience. 
    
    Cindy
                                                                   

>    Faith when one feels that energy that connects each one of us one to
>    another, we know that the energy is Good and the energy comes from God
>    herself(or himself).
    
    In Christianity, it is the Holy Spirit in each believer that connects
    us.
    
    >It is a shame that some people spend there whole lifes running away
>    from that energy out of fear of imaginary devils and demons!
    
    God's Word and my experiences say it's far from imaginary.  There's a
    definite cause for concern and this area is not to be taken lightly or
    swallowed without foundational tests.

    Now what is the source fo this "energy"?
    
    thanks,
    Mike

>    In 'faith healing', when there's a 'laying on of hands', both people
>    'have faith' that the healing is taking place, if neither can feel the
>    energy.  But since I can feel it - I can also feel it unblocking - then
>    this isn't the area of 'faith'...rather it's direct experience. 
    
    Some healings come with a tremendous surge of warmth that consumes your
    entire bodily, some healings don't.  Sometimes both parties feel it,
    sometimes just 1 person feels it.  Some healings don't even require
    the laying on of hands, just intercessory prayer.  It could be
    anywhere, anytime, separated by thousands of miles or close personal
    contact.  God healed people in many different ways when He walked on
    earth with us too.  His Word does outline somewhat of a pattern if you
    do an in-depth study of healings.  Thankfully, His Word provides the
    tests for the source too.
    
    Mike

    
    Re.56
    
    Yes, Mike, exactly. 
    
    Regarding 'the energy' in .55 - it's called different things in different
    frames of references, and in Christianity you call it the Holy Spirit.
    In Hinduism, it is Shakti.   
    
    Cindy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    Faith when one feels that energy that connects each one of us one to
>    another, we know that the energy is Good and the energy comes from God
>    herself(or himself).
    
    >>In Christianity, it is the Holy Spirit in each believer that connects
    >>us.
    
    
    Exactly Mike.  That energy is the Holy Spirit in each person that
    connects us!
    
    
                                Patricia
    
    

Cindy,

How does one go about 'feeling' the energy from a crystal, or whatever.

Steve

>    Regarding 'the energy' in .55 - it's called different things in different
>    frames of references, and in Christianity you call it the Holy Spirit.
>    In Hinduism, it is Shakti.   
    
    How do you know it's the Holy Spirit?  Since when does the Holy Spirit
    possess inanimate objects?
    
    thanks,
    Mike

    Re.60          
    
    Mike,
    
    It seems that you're looking to make some kind of a point here, and I 
    don't know what it is, and we just keep going around and around.  The 
    energy is energy - it's whether it's blocked or flowing that makes the 
    difference.  This entire creation - even inanimate objects (energy 
    stepped down into physical form) - is made up of energy.  It's one big 
    energy field.  Physics will tell you that.
    
    Regarding the 'source' - here on Earth, the sun is our source of heat
    and light.  But what is the source of the sun's energy?  If you can
    answer that, then you will have the answer for the 'source' you keep
    asking about.    
    
    Cindy

    
    Re.59
    
    Steve,
    
    It's typically a very subtle energy.  There are many factors involved,
    and the most important ones are the relative purity of both energy
    fields involved.  If you have a 'clean' crystal (energy is flowing
    well), and also your own energy field is fairly purified, then it will 
    be easier to feel, vs. either you or the crystal having fairly blocked 
    energy.  
    
    To start to sense your own energy field, take your hands and rub them
    together vigorously.  Then separate them and move them around a bit in
    relation to each other.  See if you sense anything beyond the physical
    sensations created from the rubbing.  Again, it's very subtle.
    
    From crystals - I was a skeptic too, until back around 1987 when I
    asked a friend the same question.  She had some crystals with her and
    so I held one in one hand while pointing it at the palm of my other
    hand and moved it around a bit.  Nothing.  So she suggested I reverse
    hands, and upon repeating it, I actually felt something.  It sort of
    'blows your mind' a bit at the beginning, because your mind wants to
    tell you that it's not feeling that, yet your direct experience is
    proving otherwise.  It's similar to when I was showing others in Brazil
    how to sense the energy from the large crystal, and they came up with
    all sorts of excuses - the air conditioning is on, or there's
    (whatever...).  But then they finally gave in to the possibility and
    were soon feeling the spots on the crystal which were stronger than
    others, and thinking it was all kinda neat in a strange sort of way. 
    (;^)  Typically the areas on one's hands will have a tingling feeling.
    
    I remember the first time a good friend of mine who was skeptic to the
    max was visiting, and I asked him to hold up his hand.  He held it up,
    and I held up my hand about 1-2 inches from his.  Then I moved my hand
    slightly, he felt the energy shift, and you never saw such a shocked 
    look on someone's face as his.  (;^)
    
    Cindy

    Cindy, are you saying the Holy Spirit is the Sun?  Again, how do you
    know the energy is the Holy Spirit?  
    
    Mike

    Who knows, maybe the Holy Spirit is the Son!
    
    
    
    

    >    Who knows, maybe the Holy Spirit is the Son!
    
    Congrats, Patricia!

    
    .63
    
    Mike, I give up.  I really don't know what you're looking for.  Why 
    don't you enlighten us?
    
    Cindy

    What is the "spiritual" source of your experiences?

    In plain terms, I believe what is being conveyed here is although the
    experiences are real...and although they are interesting and unusual to
    the every day life of a person, there is the possibility that these
    experiences come from a dark source.
    
    "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against
    principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of
    this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."  Ephesians 6.
    
    It seems a prophet and apostle of Jesus Christ is confirming that
    spiritual experiences can in fact come from Satan and are to be watched
    out for.  
    
    -Jack

    Re.the last two
    
    Ah yes - now we're getting to it...the old 'burn the witches' thing.  
    Imply that there's a 'dark side' to this supposed 'energetic power' 
    that I have, and pursue it (and me) from that angle.  
    
    I maintain that energy is energy - as in E=mc(2), etc. - and that that 
    is the bottom line here.  It's not any more difficult than that.  Tell 
    me what the energy source for the sun is, and you have your answer.
    
    Cindy

    Oh...so in simple terms, you don't believe in demonic forces in the
    world?  I mean true angelic forces of darkness and not just ideologies
    of humankind which personify evil?

    
    Re.70
    
    Jack,
    
    The energy is energy is energy, just as a stone is a stone is a stone.
    
    The only point at which good and 'evil' (or 'demonic forces' as you 
    would call it) enter the picture is when the energy is used for the 
    purposes of harm, or the stone is thrown for the purposes of hurting 
    someone or something. So it comes down to the *intent* of the human 
    who is either working with the energy or holding a stone.  My intent 
    in healing is only to heal, and never to harm.    
    
    It is not any more difficult than that.
    
    I'm still waiting for one of you to put your own identification label
    on the energy source that supplies the sun.
    
    Cindy

    I tend to wonder more about the source of Newt Gingrich's energy. ]B^)
    
    Richard
    

cindy, i have already 'staked' out my position in .43 and have since been 
following what you wrote. 

you are obviously describing an outside force such as an electromagnetic
field and one which is provable given then right equipment, no? are you
referring to a force which can only be sensed by a (psychic?) human but
which can otherwise not be proven/measured when using equipment?

what you seem to be talking about appears to be quite different of what 
mike is on about (to which my .43 was primarily addressed).

>    I'm still waiting for one of you to put your own identification label
>    on the energy source that supplies the sun.

what do you mean by this? there is no outside energy which supplies the
sun - other than the sun moving on with the rest of the universe and it
being affected by the gravitational fields of other stars.




andreas.

    Cindy, I was implying anything.  Every energy force has a source and I
    was just curious what you thought yours was.
    
>    I'm still waiting for one of you to put your own identification label
>    on the energy source that supplies the sun.
    
    Nuclear fusion fed by combinations of helium and hydrogen.  Nuclear
    fusion doesn't occur within inanimate objects so this is why I asked
    you what your energy source was.
    
    Mike

    
    There is only one source.  You can call it God, or you can call it what
    you like, but it's one and the same for everything.  
    
    Cindy

    
    Andreas,
    
    I think the best book to read about this energy field is entitled,
    "Light Emerging", by Barbara Brennan.  She talks about it from a more
    scientific perspective as she is a former Ph.D. astrophysicist from
    NASA.  I believe she describes ways that it can be measured
    scientifically.
    
    So one doesn't have to be 'psychic' to feel this energy.  I taught 
    several people on how to feel it while in Brazil near that crystal. 
    It's a natural phenomenon.  Similarly, I can hear sonic alarms in some
    banks and department stores - so much so that I had to change banks
    once because the noise was so painful (to me) that I couldn't bear to
    stand in line there. However people standing next to me couldn't hear 
    a thing.
    
    Cindy

    re: .75
    
    I disagree.  Not all "energy" comes from the same source, else the
    Bible would be silent with regards to channeling and such.  The Bible
    is clear that there are "principalities and powers" working in this
    world that are not of Him- but of the enemy.
    
    
    -steve

>    There is only one source.  You can call it God, or you can call it what
>    you like, but it's one and the same for everything.  
    
    I thought you were a UU and not an Animist?!
    
    Mike

    
    Re.77
    
    Channelling has absolutely nothing to do with the energy I'm referring to.
                               
    Cindy

    
    Re.78
    
    I give up!  
    
    Cindy

    ;-) you give up too easily.

    Channeling,
    
    You mean like Moses and Elija?  John the Baptist?  Jeramiah, David,
    Noah, Adam, Cain???????

    re: .79
    
    How do you know?

    re: .82
    
    Channeling?  

re .43



i am still waiting for mike to admit that the bible is NOT charged with
energy.

or does anyone think otherwise?



andreas.

    
    Re.83
    
    Because I'm talking about the energy field of things like stones, the
    sun, our own energy fields, etc. 
    
    Cindy

>i am still waiting for mike to admit that the bible is NOT charged with
>energy.

    All you had to do was ask.  Of course it isn't charged with energy. 
    It's charged with the Holy Spirit!
    
    Mike

does your bible say anywhere that the holy spirit inhabits inanimate
objects?




andreas.

    Never.  It only inhabits the true children (i.e., believers) of God.

to come back to your note .35, which triggered the question.
since the bible is an inaminate object the bible is not 
inhabited by the holy spirit [the writers of the bible may 
have been, but the holy spirit does not dwell in print, paper 
or on book covers]

so when a person reacts violently to the bible as you describe
in .35 this must mean that that person is projecting into the 
bible undue powers, no? 




andreas.

    re: .86
    
    Okay.

>to come back to your note .35, which triggered the question.
>since the bible is an inaminate object the bible is not 
>inhabited by the holy spirit [the writers of the bible may 
>have been, but the holy spirit does not dwell in print, paper 
>or on book covers]
    
    Hebrews 4:12, Ephesians 6:17.

>so when a person reacts violently to the bible as you describe
>in .35 this must mean that that person is projecting into the 
>bible undue powers, no? 

    No, it's the demon(s) reaction to God's Living Holy Word.
    
    Mike

>>so when a person reacts violently to the bible as you describe
>>in .35 this must mean that that person is projecting into the 
>>bible undue powers, no? 
>
>    No, it's the demon(s) reaction to God's Living Holy Word.
    

that's ok by me, if you believe that mike. 

for my part, i just have another explanation for what you call demons, 
that's the point i was trying to make in .43


thanks,

andreas.

    Andreas, I don't believe energy has a mind, will, or emotions.  spirits
    (good and bad) do.
    
    Mike