Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    Interesting question.  I always believe in Heaven.  A place where God
    the Father dwells.  And yet Jesus said, "The Kingdom of God is within
    you."
    
    -Jack

    
    Tolstoy wrote a good book on this entitled, "The Kingdom of God Is
    Within You", and tells how he went from being essentially an atheist to
    being a very deeply spiritual (religious) person.
    
    Yes, I know I'm skipping out on answering it from myself here...(;^) 
    
    Cindy

> "The Kingdom of God is within you."
    
that's a beautiful thought. did jesus say anything else on the 
kingdom of god or is this all we know of what jesus said on the 
subject?



andreas.

    .3
    
    According to the gospels, the kingdom of God (kingdom of heaven) is
    one of the topics about which Jesus spoke most frequently.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

re .3

Andreas,

You make an important point that we need to look to see what Jesus
said on this subject, for he the Messiah is identified in the Bible 
as the installed king of God's kingdom (compare Psalms 2). He would
know what it is and it's purpose. As Richard has pointed out, it
was the main theme of Jesus' preaching "Repent, YOU people, for the
kingdom of the heavens has drawn near" Matthew 3:17b NWT. He told
his followers to pray for God's kingdom to come, in what is often 
referred to as the Lord's prayer. Also for God's will to take place
on earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10). Through study of the Bible
one will come to see that it is through this kingdom that God intends
to bring about his will and purposes for the earth. Just a glimpse
of the world, injustice, suffering etc, shows that God's kingdom
is not yet fully ruling over the earth. Matthew 24:14 reads "And the
good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth
for a witnessto all the nations; then the end will come." A preaching
campaign would be conducted earth wide explaining what this kingdom
will do and how it effects mankind before it would be introduced on
a global scale. The question is why don't professing Christians talk
about it, especially preach about God's kingdom in imitation of Jesus?.
Is the preaching of the good news of God's kingdom going on today?.

Jesus showed the importance of understanding what the kingdom of
heavens is, in his illustration of the sower .... "Where anyone hears
the word of the kingdom but does not get the sense of it, the wicked
one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart; this is
the one sown alongside the road." 

But what is God's kingdom?, many prophecies in the Hebrew scriptures
point to being what we understand a kingdom to be. For example in 
Isaiah 9:6 KJV the government rule would be on the Messiah's shoulders,
and it would bring an end to political system of earthly governments
(compare Daniel 2:44). This government would rule from heaven 
(Revelation  5:10 & 20:6), from this vantage point it be free from 
corruptible influences that we see with earthly governments.  So it's 
a government with Jesus as head. Just think of it, Jesus' miracles 
that he performed on earth were a foregleam of what this government 
would accomplish on a global scale thus fulfilling many of the Hebrew 
prophecies such as in Isaiah 35.

But as you know, many think that God's kingdom is within people. But 
an examination of the Bible text were this comes from shows that this
understanding is not correct. Lets look at the verse that Jack
mentioned, "But on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God 
was coming, he answered  them and said "The kingdom of God is not coming 
with any striking observableness, neither will people be saying, 'See 
here! or, 'There!' For look! the kingdom of God is in your midst."" 
Luke 17:20,21 NWT. Agreed many translations use "the kingdom of God
is within you" but other translations such as RSV render this verse 
as "in the midst of you". So what was Jesus indicating regarding the 
kingdom of God?. Well his comment was directed to the Pharisees, surely 
he wasn't indicating that the kingdom of God was within them for Jesus 
had also highlighted Satan as their Father and not God whom they professed 
(compare John 8:44). What he was telling them was that the Messiah or 
future king of God's kingdom was in their midst, as religious leaders 
they should have recognised Jesus for whom he was. 


Hope this helps

Phil.

                                                   
    Re.3
    
    Andreas,
    
    That book that Tolstoy wrote was not all that appreciated by the State
    or Church, because it infringed upon their power to dictate to the people
    what they should do.  So it was banned in the country (Russia) at that 
    time.
    
    The book greatly influenced Gandhi's non-violent non-cooperation in
    South Africa, and also the rest of his life's work. He and Tolstoy
    corresponded several times and became good friends.  The book is well 
    worth taking a look at.  It's one of Tolstoy's lesser-known ones.
    
    Another closely related one on the psychological front is, "The
    Undiscovered Self", by Carl Jung.  It was his last work, the easiest to
    read and comprehend, and a relatively small one.
    
    Cindy

re .5


phil, the pointer(s) to places in the gospels where jesus says that the 
"kingdom of god is within you" is just what i was looking for. i'll read 
up on luke 17:20,21 and keep your warning about possible errors of 
translation in mind.


thanks,

andreas.

re .6



cindy you are so wonderful! tolstoy's book is a terrific recommendation
for my literature shopping list.


>   Another closely related one on the psychological front is, "The
>   Undiscovered Self", by Carl Jung.  

jung has captured my attention since a good few years. i have most of
his works though i haven't read through all yet. i am still chewing on 
jung's concept of the collective subconscious and archetypes in relation
to 'god' and the kingdom 'within'. though i expect that a lifetime is
too short in order to fully grasp these concepts...




andreas.

Note 1149.7

>phil, the pointer(s) to places in the gospels where jesus says that the 
>"kingdom of god is within you" is just what i was looking for. i'll read 
>up on luke 17:20,21 and keep your warning about possible errors of 
>translation in mind.

Luke is the only one to use "is within you" to my knowledge.  Some translations
use or have as a footnote "in your midst," or some variation thereof.

A old Quaker friend of mine - now deceased - used to talk about the "Kingdom
of God within your reach."
              ^^^^^^^^^^

Richard

    I believe the Bible teaches that "Kingdom of God" and the "Kingdom 
    of Heaven" are synonymous.  As for Luke 17:21, Jesus Christ is telling
    you Himself that it is not internal.  Since Jesus was talking to
    Pharisees, who weren't believers, it is clear within context of the
    entire Bible that He was not talking about their spiritual condition.  
    The surrounding verses in the chapter point to something that isn't a
    slow, observable process but a sudden, future fulfillment of the
    kingdom.
    
    Mike
    
Luke 17:20-21
    And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God
    should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with
    observation:
    Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom
    of God is within you.

    I must take exception to the notion that simply because someone was a
    Pharisee that they had it all wrong.  The things Jesus criticized in
    some Pharisees were the very things other Pharisees criticized as well.
    
    Ask your rabbi.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    Also see topic:
    
================================================================================
Note 292.0                The Kingdom of God is within                65 replies
CSC32::J_CHRISTIE "Peace on it"                       5 lines  21-AUG-1991 14:34
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This topic was suggested by a read-only member.
    What does "The kingdom of God is within" mean to you?
    
    Peace,
    Richard

>    I must take exception to the notion that simply because someone was a
>    Pharisee that they had it all wrong.  The things Jesus criticized in
>    some Pharisees were the very things other Pharisees criticized as well.
>    
>    Ask your rabbi.
    
    Ask your rabbi/pastor (if you don't know) the cultural significance of
    being called a "whitewashed tomb" and you'll probably change your mind.
    
    Mike

    
    Re.8
    
    Andreas,
    
    Why thank you (blush, blush)!  (;^)
    
    Tolstoy, interestingly enough, was a staunch atheist, and then in his
    later years discovered for himself the true meaning of the Christian
    message in his own way, which was the basis for the book.
    
    Regarding myths, Jung, and archetypes, an author that puts these things
    into easier and more enjoyable reading, is Joseph Campbell.  Campbell 
    knew Jung, actually.  The best book to start with is entitled, "The 
    Power Of Myth", a sort-of transcript of a series of interviews put 
    together for our public television between Campbell and Bill Moyers.
    The book is good, but the 6-series videotape collection is even better. 
    Moyers is one of the most highly respected journalists in the US, and
    Campbell is absolutely a delight to watch and listen to.  Sadly he died
    in 1987.  The next best book by Campbell is, "Hero With 1000 Faces".
                 
    Lastly, a real gem and favorite of mine is, "Mr. God, This Is Anna". 
    It's a true story that took place in England, and one that will touch
    your heart forever.  There is also a follow-on book entitled, "Anna's
    Book".  The author of both works is Fynn.
    
    Cindy 
                            

    .13
    
    So, you think all the Pharisees were off the mark?  Fine.
    
    Richard
    

    I don't think, I know ;-)

    Bully for you.
    
    How that plays out may be of concern, but other than that it really
    doesn't matter.
    
    Richard
    

i checked!


>Luke 17:20-21
>    And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God
>    should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with
>    observation:
>    Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom
>    of God is within you.


disappointingly, my NT, which is in GERMAN, has this last sentence as "the 
kingdom of god is in your midst" ...  :-(



andreas.

                                                             
    Re.18
    
    Andreas,
    
    That translation is a disputed one, and so you will find many different
    translations (even in English) depending upon which Bible version you
    check.  So it's not just the German translation.
    
    However, there is a lot of truth to it in any case, because once you
    realize God is within you, you also realize that God is also 'in your
    midst'.  At least that was my experience.
    
    Cindy

    God only enters the lives of His children (i.e., believers).

    All people are God's children.  God is not as exclusive as some would
    like.
    
    Richard
    

    true, but not all children acknowledge or accept Him.  Some completely
    deny His existence.

ZZ    All people are God's children.  God is not as exclusive as some
ZZ    would like.
    
    All study I have done on this suggests otherwise.  Of course I realize
    I could be wrong and am open to correction.
    
    The obvious is that we are all God's creation.  Scripture teaches that
    Jesus is the only begotten son of God.  As far as we mortals, "But as
    many as received Him, to them gave he the power to become the children
    of God, even to those who believe on His name." John 1:12.  This to me
    implies becoming a child of God is conditional.
    
    Scripture also teaches that we are His adopted sons and not begotten at
    all.  So in essence, we are equated to the illigitamate if you will. 
    We are also equated as enemies of the most high in our natural state,
    that being born into sin.  
    
    Well, I believe I at least made an honest attempt to support my
    position.  Richard, do you have anything to share regarding all
    humankind being the children of God?
    
    -Jack

	What is a kingdom ?.

	What did the Jews especially Jesus' apostles expect the
	kingdom of God to be?.

	Phil.

>	What is a kingdom ?.

a territory usually ruled by a king, in the absence of a king, 
by a queen.

>	What did the Jews especially Jesus' apostles expect the
>	kingdom of God to be?.

from my understanding of hans kueng on the matter, it seems that 
the lifetime of jesus fell into a time where the end of the world 
or of civilisation was generally believed to be close. it is possible 
that jesus, and certaily after his death/resurrection, that the 
apostles capitalised on this end-of-the-earth feeling and that this 
feeling contributed significantly to the spread of the salvation 
message. presumably the kingdom of god (perhaps with jesus as ruler
on earth) was expected to follow the end of the earth.




andreas.

    There was no fixed concept within scripture regarding what the kingdom
    of God was.  Like all theological concepts it evolved over time.  An
    analysis of the usage of that term withing the scripture will show the
    evolution of that concept over time.
    
    

Matthew often records Jesus' parables as starting with these or similar
words: "The kingdom of heaven is like this."  Such is the case with the
parable Jack alluded to in 1159.12, the so-called parable of the workers
in the vineyard, Matthew 20.1-16.

Now, I think it's important to ask ourselves again what we mean by the
kingdom of heaven, and exactly what are we praying for when we pray: "Thy
kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"?

Shalom,
Richard

9.2001

>    First, let,s touch on the church thing.  The Church was MOST DEFINITELY
>    founded by Jesus Christ.  Jesus spoke in Matthew 16 as saying, "...and
>    upon this rock I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH, and the gates of hell shall not
>    prevail against it."

As you are most likely aware, the Greek here is 'ecclesia,' (my spelling may
be off here) which literally means a 'gathering or assembly.'  It does not
necessarily mean an institution.

Jesus made very few references to 'the church.'  On the other hand, Jesus
spoke repeatedly about 'the Kingdom (of God or Heaven).'  The two don't
seem to be synonymous.

Shalom,
Richard

    Richard:
    
    Maybe it's samantics.  I agree that we are speaking of the local body
    of believers.
    
    -Jack

    I question the notion that the 'local body of believers' is what
    constitutes 'the church.'  It's difficult to say what Jesus had
    in mind.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard