Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    Three good books I've read on the topic...
    
    
    "Life After Life" Dr. Raymond Moody
    
    "We Don't Die" a book about the psychic George Anderson
    
    "The Tibetian Book of the Dead" (author unknown)
    
    
    -dave
    
    

      When you're dead you're dead!
    
      Until resurrection of course!
    
    						Tony

    Or unless you are a thief on a cross!
    
    -Jack

when you're dead you go back where you came from...


that works for dust and spirit!


andreas.

    
    The "Tibetan Book of Living and Dying" is by Sogyal Rinpoche. 
    Excellent reading.
    
    Cindy

    No one living really knows what it's like to be dead, at least
    permanently dead.  Blanket statements like "There's Nothing" or
    "It will be like I've been told or read" are (IMO) ways to avoid 
    discussion.  
    
    People who have experienced clinical, short term death if you will,
    have interesting accounts of their experiences.  The  first book I
    mentioned in .1, "Life After Life" was written by a physician  who
    became aware of many such stories from his and other patients.  The
    patterns which emerged were too striking for him or any other scientist
    to pass up.  So he did some research, compiled his data and wrote his
    book.  I'll elaborate more if someone asks, but it's not a very
    expensive or long book if you just want to  read it yourself. (The TV
    interpretation of the book was an abomination BTW)
    
    Others have (aparently... supposedly) experienced those already dead.
    Almost all psychics are frauds.  It's easy, therefor, to prejudge and
    dismiss the who group as such.  Sort of like saying that all oysters
    don't contain pearls.  But some have "insights" (or whatever) which
    simply cannot be explained by reason or science.  George Anderson, the
    psychic I mentioned, is supposedly one such person.  Could be a sham
    but you'd be hard to convince those who know him of that.  And some of
    those are scientists and profeessional "debunkers" (expose psychic 
    frauds and take great pleasure in doing so).  This guy's appeared on 
    radio and TV and, odly enough, the Catholic Church supports him.  The 
    police have used him many times to successfully solve crimes. Etc... .
    But George himiself seems to want to spend his time with those grieving
    lost loved ones.  Until and unless someone can explain why he can do
    the things he does, one must at least keep an open mind on him and a
    few like him.  
    
    And some of these "experiences" have striking similarities to other 
    cultures and in other times. The "Tibetian Book of the Dead" was
    written centuries ago, probably by Tibetian monks.  Again, the
    similarities to the reported experiences of modern day western culture
    are simply too much to ignore.  The book is a detailed explanation or
    guide for those who are about to die.  It describes things they'll
    "see" (or experience), personalities they'll encounter, etc... .
    
    I cannot say what happens to someone after they die because I've never
    died.  My aunt did, and was then resussitated (on the table as it
    were).  She would reluctantly attempt to describe her experience to
    those who asked and insisted.  Reluctantance to talk about the
    experience is common, partly because the person fears that they will be
    disbelieved and laughed at, partly because they claim that English is a
    very poor means to relate the experience.  Regardless, she was never
    afraid of dying after that.  In fact, she seemsed to look forward to it
    in the last few weeks of her life.
    
    As I said, I don't know what it's like.  My opinions are just that,
    persnal opinions and are probably not even relevant.  But I'm fascinated 
    by the subject and read good books on the topic when I find them.  
    
    Not sure what Christianity has to say about it.  The traditional
    western versions of heaven, purgatory and hell are really just the
    modified versions of Dante's "Divine Comedy" and are not (I believe)
    rooted in official church doctrine.  Elaboration welcome.
    
    
    -dave
    
    
    

    Or, you can listen to "He Said She Said" by the beatles. 

re .6


dave, i share your fascination with 'border-line' experiences. i am careful
to separate such experiences into two distinct parts though, one being the 
study of the phenomenon itself, the other being the interpretation. the latter
part is the one where most blunders are being committed (in my opinion), 
by attributing the source of an observed phenomenon to the 'other world' 
or to some other unverifiable entity (usually magical, mystical or spiritual), 
instead of looking for the explanation of the phenomenon in this world,
based on the present body of knowledge.

a good few years back i had the (questionable) good fortune of attending    
several services at a 'spiritists church' in england. the main attraction 
of each service was a medium which would pick out individuals from the 
audience to pass messages from the deceased. on the whole the messages
were quite detailed and usually made sense to the recipients. i had no
way of knowing whether the medium knew the recipients prior to the session
though.

in any case, the way the mediums worked is similar to that of accomplished 
psychics, that is, of seers who need next to no utensils to tell
you in intricate detail about your current circumstances and what the
future holds. i've had some occasion to investigate this phenomenon 
first-hand, since a close friend was strongly influenced by such a psychic. 

through experimentation, a key insight was how the psychic would describe 
the very same entity in totally different (and contradictory) terms to me 
and to my friend (in separate sessions). for instance to me, person X was 
described in very negative terms whilst the same person X was described in 
exclusively positive terms to my friend, whilst person Y's future, as put 
to me, was very bleak, whereas Y was looking toward a great time with my 
friend. all this came with much stunning detail about current circumstances, 
issues which the medium could not possibly know about.

from those observations i could not but conclude that 
- the medium is not fully conscious when it is in this state of 
 'transmitting', otherwise it would know about the contradictions 
  when it described the very same entity to different persons, and 
- when the medium is in this state of 'transmitting', it must somehow 
  pick up (perceive) images which lay dormant within the person 
  opposite and which the medium then articulates/interprets. 

the fact that the medium can convey the images found in the person opposite
is what makes the message of the medium so powerful to the recipient. 
this all too often and fatally, makes the recipient accept the mediums 
message as an absolute truth and predisposes the person to follow the mediums 
advice to the dot instead of realising that the medium may just have been 
articulating subconscious imagery which the person may also be able to access 
via other means (for instance through dream analysis or via hypnosis).

similarly, with near death experiences, the subconscious could also play a 
larger role which could explain a similarty in patterns at this stage. 
all this is merely my non-expert explanation of border-line experiences and 
i am sure that there is much expert research in the field of psychology and 
parapsychology. and i propbably do a good job of not putting the point across 
clearly. the main thing to me, is that there can be a 'truth value' in a 
border-line phenomenon (such as near-death or psychic experiences) and that 
lacking a statisfactory explanation of this 'truth value', there is a real 
danger of jumping to all sorts of premature conclusions instead of deepening 
the understanding of the phenomenon by building on available knowledge.

i think it quickly becomes obvious once you take a serious and open-minded
approach to 'border-line' phenomena, that there is much human potential which 
is as yet little understood and which remains untapped. but just because such
phenomena are not yet fully recognised nor understood doesn't mean that they
have anything to do with the supernatural or with after-life.




andreas.

    
    There's also an interesting book out by a doctor called, "To Hell and
    Back" which recounts the stories of those who did not experience the
    light/tunnel but something horrifying.  
    
    BTW, the man who wrote the first book, "Life after Life" is now
    practicing looking into mirrors in totally dark rooms and is
    purportedly seeing spirits and other such things.  This is a greek
    practice from way back (I can't recall the name) and is simply an
    occult practice condemned by God in the Bible.
    
    jeff

  ZZ      No one living really knows what it's like to be dead, at least
  ZZ      permanently dead.  
    
    Unless you were President Ford! :-)

    .8
    
    I too am very cautious about extrapolating the "psychic" experiences
    beyond the factual.  It seems that people have a desire to believe in
    an afterlife and will artificially build one out of whatever scraps of
    info/data they can get.  
    
    But some of the "reported" near death experiences and insights of 
    psychics sort of hit us right in the realm of the hard world.  Examples
    of near death experiences which demonstrate this might be ones where,
    right after a person "dies", they report a sensation of floating above
    the operating table (or whatever) and report on all sorts of things
    that they could not possibly have seen or experienced at the time.  In
    one case, a man (who had died) said that he floated up and out of the
    hospital before being "slammed" back into his body.  While out of the
    hospital, he saw a shoe or sneaker (whatever) on a ledge or some
    distant wing of the hospital.  Sure enough, someone checked out the
    story and it was there.  Again, all of this could be fabricated.  But
    when it's a doctor interviewing other doctors and nurses, it makes you
    think twice.  And when someone you know has had an experience like
    that, and is telling you about it in all ernesty (as one might when
    they're talking about their own death), it drives the point a little
    closer to home.
    
    The psychis I mentioned clarified "MANY TIMES" that he recieves
    impressions or images, sometimes physical sensations (pain, cold, 
    etc...).  He readily admits that his spoken language equivilent of 
    these is an interpretation of the impressions.  He claims to have 
    learned (somewhat) what certain images/feelings tend to mean.  I
    suppose the more he works on it, the clearer things become.  But all of
    that is again vague to me.  I like to look at the "bottom line" and
    see if there's anything happening here in the real world that alludes
    explanation.  For example, once this psychic was approached by a middle 
    aged couple.  Almost immediately the psychic tells them that a young
    man, named Bill in uniform is desperately trying to tell them that he
    is dead.  The "spirit" reports of his helicopter going down at the
    border of Laos and Caomodia, Joe, Frank and Randy were killed but he
    and Alan were captured but died a little later.  Etc... .  THe couples
    son was MIA.  They found the reckage of the helicopter some time later 
    at the border of Laos and Cambodia.  On and on... .  Put yourself in
    the place of one of the parents, approaching this psychic as a perfect
    stranger.  Now tell me that you could dismiss what just happened as
    a phychic's trick.
    
    There's a lot "out there" that we don't know about.  Since a lot of
    this falls out of the realm of "Matter, Space, Energy, Time" (science)
    we tend to dismiss it as unreal.  But then again, I suppose people were
    astonished when Magellean reported that he sailed around the round
    world which was supposed to be flat.  IMOP, it's important to keep an
    open mind and search for truth.
    
    -dave
      
                                   

    .9
    
     >>BTW, the man who wrote the first book, "Life after Life" is now
     >>practicing looking into mirrors in totally dark rooms and is
     >>purportedly seeing spirits and other such things.  This is a greek
    
    What's your source on this?  
    
    It doesn't seem that spirits (if they do exist) should require the use
    of a mirror, in a dark room yet, in order to be sensed by someone who
    might be a genuine psychic.  However, one might see actual reflections of 
    tiny amounts of light, fuel for an active imagination.  NOW, if someone 
    DID *see* a spirit, in a mirror, in the dark, whatever... and that spirit 
    reported some fact which the "seer" could not possibly have known, then 
    there's something worth looking into.  Otherwise, it's just some guy
    sitting in a chair, in the dark, looking at a pane of glass.  Smoking 
    dope might "enhance" the so-called spiritual activity (as he "sees"
    it).
    
    -dave
    

    
    My source is seeing Dr. Moody on a television show talking about his
    practices.  He is not a psychic but a medical doctor (a pathologist, I
    believe).
    
    jeff

re .11, near death experiences



what is the average person capable of under extreme circumstances?

i have witnessed one person who was at the time having a 'religious 
psychosis', who, in the manic phase, had a heightened sense of perception 
(appeared to be able to read peoples thoughts) and although of slight built 
(weighing just about 100 lbs) was able to lift a man who weighed no less 
than 250 lbs! how can this be explained?

you probably know that when you're attempting to save a person who is 
about to drown in deep water, that you should never approach that person 
from the front as someone who is drowning can develop incredible physical 
strength and can take you down with him/her.

my explanation is that for the average person, it takes extreme 
circumstances to be able to perform what appears to be supernatural or
superhuman acts. and that perhaps, the potential is in everyone and that
such acts can be performed through appropriate training. isn't this what 
some of the yoga exercises are about? i have also heard of out-of-body 
experiences in relation to yoga masters and these appear to be very similar 
to the out-of-body experiences of patients on the deathbed as you described.




andreas.

 I read recently a statement made by a Pastor who had been visiting a man
 off and on, sharing the gospel with him.  The man replied he didn't have time
 for Christ now.  One day he got a call from the man's wife..he'd had a 
 massive heart attack and wasn't expected to live.  The pastor rushed to the
 man's hospital room and asked him if he was now ready to accept Christ.."No",
 he replied, as he slipped off to sleep..moments later he sprang up in bed
 screaming in terror, then laid back and died..

 Did he have a glimpse into the afterlife without Christ?


 Jim

> moments later he sprang up in bed screaming in terror, then laid back 
> and died..


did the man say that he was screaming in terror or was it pain which 
caused him to scream?




andreas.

 I can check the article again, but I believe, based on the Pastor's 
 statement, the man had a look of terror on his face.




 Jim

thanks. let's just hope the terror wasn't caused by terrible pain! ;-)




andreas.

 Well, certainly I'd be concerned about the man being in pain.




 Jim

    An excellent book on this stuff is "the Psychic Mafia", written by a
    guy who made his living doing this kind of thing. If it doesn't change
    your mind, then it will atleast take up your time. 
    
    
    jay

    Re .13
    
    The reason I ask about the source of the mirror/dark room thing is to
    filter out "Inquirer"-type sources. If it was an interview with the man
    himself, that's another matter.  Do you remember the show (I'd be
    interested in trying to get a video taped copy of it).  BTW, what did he 
    say about this mirror experience?  Did he go off the deep end?  
    
    Re .14
    
    You're right about the extrodinary physical prowess one can manifest in
    times of extreme duress.  Is ther a parallel phenomenon in the non-
    physical realm as well?  Hmmmmm... interesting thought.  I've heard of
    people who had their "entire lives flash before their eyes in an
    instant" (sort of thing) when they thought they were about to die.  Is
    that the sort of thing you mean? Out of body experiences are actually
    quite common if you ask around. But I wouldn't equate these to
    superhuman.  Maybe more like a "hiccup" or stall in whatever binds the 
    spirit to the body.
    
    I believe that yoga is practiced as a means to prepare one for more 
    productive forms of meditation.  The goal (if you will) of eastern
    meditation is to dissolve the artificially created sense of
    individuality... sense of separate self if you will, which we all feel.
    The belief is that we are simply part of the greater whole, the
    universe, the eastern god, and the belief that you're different from or 
    separate from the universe is false.  Meditation is an attempt to
    achieve the truth as a state of being.
    
    Re .15
    
    Who knows shy the guy was screaming before he died.  Maybe he had
    another heart attack and it hurt a lot.  Maybe he got stuck with a
    pitchfork.  But from Moody's book, the near-deathers who "died" from 
    suicide attempts had very nupleasant experiences.  The psychic alluded
    to the notion that suicide equated to failure in this life and that
    these spirits had a lot of hard work ahead of them to figure out what
    went wrong.  There was almost always a mention of a bright light 
    (near-deathers, messages to/from psychic and many powerful references 
    in the Book of the Dead).  Seems that Christians called the light Jesus.  
    Moslems called it Allah. Atheists just called it a warm light to which 
    they felt a strong attraction. Agnostics weren't sure what the hell it 
    was (just kidding).
    
    -dave

    DAve,
    
    I'm enjoying your entries here.
    
    It reminds me that we are coming close to the Pagan Samheim holiday (also
    celebrated as halloween) where the veil between the world of the living
    and the dead is the smallest.
    
                                            

    
    It might have been Oprah (egads!).
    
    If I recall he was essentially a skeptic who fell into the fascination
    of the occult (my conclusion).
    
    jeff

re .21    

>   You're right about the extrodinary physical prowess one can manifest in
>   times of extreme duress.  Is ther a parallel phenomenon in the non-
>   physical realm as well?  Hmmmmm... interesting thought.  

>   I've heard of people who had their "entire lives flash before their 
>   eyes in an instant" (sort of thing) when they thought they were about 
>   to die.  Is that the sort of thing you mean? 

the life flashing by or the sensation of the patient hovering above the 
doctors and nurses in near death experiences could certainly be the result
of a racing mind or of a breakdown of the nervous system. 

what of out-of-body experiences and the (preceived?) 'extra bodily perception',
if such a term exists, by healthy people? as far as i know (and i am not an 
expert on the subject) the extra bodily perception is restricted to the close
vicinity (ie. same room or adjacent areas) since the bodily sensors are
still used in the process. and of course, it goes without saying that
there can't be extra bodily perception by a dead body!!

i have also heard of the tunnel/light experience and if this occurs across
cultures it would be very plausible that this experience is a product of the 
subconscious (ie. the collective subconscious in jungian terms). that is, 
that the tunnel/light experience occurs when consciousness is being lost and 
when the patient goes into a sleep-state, where the subconscious, due to the 
intensity of the foregoing experience, responds with this archetypal imagery, 
similar as it does in dreams.


gosh, what a subject! 



andreas.

    
    There are vivid pictures of Christ and heaven in Revelation 1, 4, 19, 21, 
    and 22.
    
    jeff
    

    Re .24
    
    >> still used in the process. and of course, it goes without saying that
    >> there can't be extra bodily perception by a dead body!!
    
    But you see, that's just it.  These things they report "seeing" (I'm
    told that's a poor description of the sensation) could not have been 
    "seen" from the body.  Someone dreaming about floating around sounds to 
    me a lot more plausible than a spirit floating around.  But I mean some 
    of these people report things that they could not possibly have sensed 
    from perspective of someone lying down on an operating table (for 
    instance).  It would be like you dreaming or imagining the occurances in
    the next room in perfect detail with your eyes closed.  That's the kind
    of thing that warrents ferther examination.  The reports of tunnels,
    bright lights, etc... gain some credence only from the quantity and 
    quality of the people who claim to have had the experience, in this time 
    and in the past.  It's no more than interesting.
    
    Moody's stuff was supposedly based on a collection of patient
    interviews supported by clinical evidence.  I believe there was a
    forward by one of his colleagues, someone who was also interested in
    the many reports she was getting about this sort of thing from some of
    her patients.  He may have wandered into some rathole of the occult,
    but this would be entirely inconsistent with his book, it's sequel or
    corroborating testimony from supposed professional colleagues.  He may
    have become interested in the "paranormal" which some might equate with
    the occult. George Anderson (the psychic) had to fight many battles
    with people claiming he was dabbling with the occult.  Odly enough, the
    Catholic Church supports what he's doing and refutes any claims that
    it's any form of occult.  
    
    -dave
    
    
    

    Normally I'm a RON, and just skim things on my lunch.  But this note
    interested me, as I just finished reading a book about the "dangers" of
    the new age movement.  In it the author quoted a scripture, someone
    help me out here, about the dangers of seers, psychics, etc., as such
    things are an abomination to the Lord.  Maybe this is off the path
    here, but what do you all think about that?  Do you believe these types
    of powers are demonic?
    
    Curious.

    Was the book by chance "The Dangers of the Hidden Rainbow" by Constance
    Cumbey?
    
    -Jack

    No, it was called The Demonic Roots of Globalism, by Gary(?) Kah.
    
    (Not sure if the first name is correct)
    
    Rgds,

re .27


over here, there are quite a few faith healers which are supposed 
to work wonders.

where do the healing powers come from?

i can think of three possibilities

a) from the faith healer
b) from the one seeking help
c) from a combination of the two above


personally, i think that b) is most likely, ie. that the patient
is using his/her autosuggestive powers - and that these 'powers' 
can work equally well in a positive and in a negative manner.

i don't think that demons have anything to do with these powers.

one power which is definitely at work in this area is the power 
of the almighty "$", as there are folks out there who are expert
in turning peoples superstition into gold.




andreas.

    Depends on who they are and who they serve.  The devil *does* have the
    capability of physical healing - at least the appearance of it.
    
    Mike

>over here, there are quite a few faith healers which are supposed 
>to work wonders.
>
>where do the healing powers come from?
>
>i can think of three possibilities
>
>a) from the faith healer
>b) from the one seeking help
>c) from a combination of the two above
>
>
>personally, i think that b) is most likely, ie. that the patient
>is using his/her autosuggestive powers - and that these 'powers' 
>can work equally well in a positive and in a negative manner.
>
>i don't think that demons have anything to do with these powers.

Over here in the Netherlands, we have a faith healer called Yomanda. I know 
of several people ,who were healed by her "powers" and later had trouble 
praying: they just didn't know how to. They never had any problems before 
that. 

One other story I read spoke about a woman who was very ill and went to a 
healer with magnetic powers (something like that, pls forgive my English). 
When she was sitting in the waiting room, this faithful woman got a little 
insecure and started praying for guidance and support. Immediately the healer 
stepped into the waiting room and told the people that they could not pray, 
because it interfered with his work. This sounds like a demonic influence to 
me...

Marco