| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 1077.1 | | APACHE::MYERS | | Fri Apr 21 1995 15:31 | 1 |
| Modern Christianity...
|
| 1077.2 | | BIGQ::SILVA | Diablo | Fri Apr 21 1995 22:02 | 1 |
| <---Eric, I have to admit, it made me smile, but also made me sad.
|
| 1077.3 | | CSC32::J_OPPELT | Whatever happened to ADDATA? | Sat Apr 22 1995 15:35 | 2 |
| What exactly is "radical, limitless love"? Does human, sinful
nature even permit such a thing?
|
| 1077.4 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | You-Had-Forty-Years!!! | Mon Apr 24 1995 10:30 | 13 |
| One would find agape love to be rare in this world...and Jesus told us
to love one another just as he loved you.
Eric, I would ask you to clarify your statement...since it was painted
with such a broad brush. Some might say disciplining a child is an act
of unconditional love (Those whom I love I chasten). Others would say
discipline is a form of hate...others sya cutting welfare is a form of
hate while others believe it is an act of love. So...could you tell me
what you were thinking when you wrote what you did?
Thx.,
-Jack
|
| 1077.5 | | POWDML::FLANAGAN | I feel therefore I am | Mon Apr 24 1995 11:03 | 1 |
| Nothing worthy of worship!
|
| 1077.6 | If there's no love then Jesus will reject it | RDGENG::YERKESS | bring me sunshine in your smile | Mon Apr 24 1995 12:40 | 52 |
| re .4
; One would find agape love to be rare in this world...and Jesus told us
; to love one another just as he loved you.
Jack,
But it is to be found, Jesus said that it would be an identifying mark
of True Christians.
"By this all will know YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among
yourselves." John 13:35 NWT
Love is a fruit of God's spirit, Galations 5:22. Jesus admonishes
his disciples to be wary of those who do not display good fruit.
"Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep's
covering, but inside are ravenous wolves. By their fruits YOU will
recognise them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs
from thistles, do they? Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit,
but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit, neither can a rotten
tree produce fine fruit. Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut
down and thrown into the fire. Really, then, by their fruits you
will recognise those [men]. 'Not everyone saying to me, ''Lord, Lord,''
will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will
of the Father who is in heaven will. Many will say to me in that day,
''Lord, Lord, did we not prophecy in your name, and expel demons in
your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?'' And yet
then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU. Get away from me, YOU
workers of lawlessness." Matthew 7:15-23 NWT
Though rare, such ones would stand out in a world of conflict. They
would not allow conflicts caused by tribalism, racialism and
nationalism to come between the love they have for each other. If they
did, then they would display the rotten fruit such that we have seen
during the world wars when those who professed to be of the same faith
fought and killed each other. In Rwanda, tribalism has caused great
attrocities and yet this country is supposedly to be predominately
Christian. Where is the love?. Well there are those in Rwanda, and
atleast 236 other countries throughout the earth that show love for
each other. But they are hated for it, "Do not marvel, at this brothers,
that the world hates YOU. We know we have passed over from death to life,
because we love the brothers. He who does not love remains in death.
Everyone who hates his brother is a manslayer, and YOU know that no
manslayer has everlasting life remaining in him. By this we have come to
know love, because that one surrendered his soul for us; and we are under
obligation to surrender [our] sould for [our] brothers. But whoever has
this world's means for supporting life and beholds his brother having
need and yet shuts the door of his tender compassions upon him, in what
way does the love of God remain in him? Little children, let us love
neither in word nor in tongue, but in deed and truth." 1 John 3:13-18 NWT
Phil.
|
| 1077.7 | THis says it all | POWDML::FLANAGAN | I feel therefore I am | Mon Apr 24 1995 15:25 | 32 |
|
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that
loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 A person that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12 No person hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in
us, and God's love is perfected in us.
13 Hereby know we that we dwell in God, and God in us, because God hath given
us of God's Spirit.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is
love; and the person that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in
that person.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because
fear hath torment. The person that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19 We love God, because God first loved us.
20 If a person say, I love God, and hateth brother and sisters, that
person is a liar: for a person that loveth not sister and brother whom
the person hath seen, how can that person love God whom hath not been seen?
21 And this commandment have we from God, That a person who loveth God love
their sisters and brother also.
Praise God!!
|
| 1077.8 | he asked with tongue firmly planted in cheek... | AWECIM::DALBERTI | The Dread Pirate Len?? | Mon Apr 24 1995 17:11 | 18 |
|
>><<< Note 1077.6 by RDGENG::YERKESS "bring me sunshine in your smile" >>>
>> -< If there's no love then Jesus will reject it >-
>>
>>
>>But it is to be found, Jesus said that it would be an identifying mark
>>of True Christians.
>>...
>> Where is the love?. Well there are those in Rwanda, and
>>atleast 236 other countries throughout the earth that show love for
>>each other. But they are hated for it,...
Oh, and I suppose if everybody on earth were members of YOUR religion, we
wouldn't have any problems, eh? no more crime, attrocities, warfare, etc...
hmmmmmm.... but then, what kinda fun would that be?
-Len
|
| 1077.9 | What would Jesus say? | THOLIN::TBAKER | Flawed To Perfection | Thu May 23 1996 11:15 | 29 |
| I swear we're reading two different books.
So, what does Christianity have to do with love?
From what I've been reading it's about knowing scripture,
believing certain things, original sin and indebtedness
to someone who lived 2000 years ago. All heavy, dreary
responsibility with the fear of Hell hanging over everything
you think, do and say.
There's supposed to be forgiveness and grace that is assured.
But few ever act like it. It's "God's Word" this and "What
He commands us to do" that.
This also seems to be the way it's been practiced. It's
been used to justify enslavement and the genocide of
entire peoples.
And yet, when I talk about how love is the most important thing
I'm told I'm not a Christian, that my words betray me. Someone
even went so far as to say that love between a certain couple of
people was an abomination.
Maybe you're right. Maybe love has nothing to do with Christianity.
If that's the case YOU CAN KEEP IT! 'Cause Christianity has nothing
to do with the Jesus I know.
Tom Baker
|
| 1077.10 | | THOLIN::TBAKER | Flawed To Perfection | Thu May 23 1996 13:25 | 31 |
| I've moved this discussion from 398 - Hinduism.
RE: 398.144 India, Hinduism, and Vedanta 144 of 145
Jack,
> In the sense that you are presenting an incomplete portrait of what
> Christ taught.
If you leave out love, so are you.
> make the point that loving our brother as ourself is the second
> greatest commandment...and this love pales compared to the need of
> loving God with our whole heart, soul, and mind.
But how can you love your God whom you have not seen if you do
not love your brother whom you have seen? I see a very clear
stepping stone approach here.
> In order to love God in this way, it is important that we understand
> the nature of God as best we can.
Yeah. God is love. It says it right there. Plain as day.
> Paul the apostle in his quest to love God killed Christians...mainly
> because he didn't understand the nature of God.
He's not the first, nor the last.
Tom
|
| 1077.11 | | THOLIN::TBAKER | Flawed To Perfection | Thu May 23 1996 13:32 | 149 |
| RE: 398.145 India, Hinduism, and Vedanta 145 of 145
Michael,
>> I've always thought that the emphasis on love was a Christian thing.
>> Am I wrong about that, too?
>
> It is not from Christianity, at least not the *all* part. I assumed this
> stems from trying to reconcile Hinduism and Christianity. Where do you
> get it from then? The Beatles? They also tried to mix these two.
If I told you "experience" you probably wouldn't believe me.
>> This is amazing. The most important thing about Christianity
>> is love.
>
> The most important thing in Christianity is Christ. Love is only *ONE*
> aspect of the person of Jesus. What aspect was He displaying when He
> drove the money changers from the temple? Not love but righteous anger.
Hmmm.. That's what Jack said was Jesus's way of showing love. I
believe, however, that was only *ONE* way that Jesus showed love.
>> From what I've read in this conference I've seen words
>> that I believe go against Christainity over and over. Total
>> lack of compassion, rules before love.
>
> Was not Jesus showing love when He told Jews they would die in their sins
> if they did not believe He was God? They sure didn't think so, but He
> was.
I understand what you said, but not in the context of what you quoted
just before it. Please explain.
> In Matthew 23:13-39 Jesus calls the Pharisees: Hypocrites, sons of hell,
> blind guides, blind fools, whitewashed tombs, snakes and vipers. This was
> for their false understanding and portrayal of God. The Christians in
> this conference show remarkable restraint sometimes when others portray
> God falsely *AND CALL IT CHRISTIAN*. False doctrine is not taken lightly
> by God in scripture, neither should Christians!
Yeah. I know exactly what you mean.
> Is it not compassionate to warn someone that what they are doing is
> harmful? Is it loving to allow your children to play in the street
> because we must love them enough to let them do their own thing?
> Benevolent rules are good and it is not unloving or uncompassionate to
> point them out. Part of the nature of this conference, or debating forums
> in general, leads to apparent friction between individuals.
True. That's why I keep talking about love, even if some in this
conference don't think it's an important part of Christianity.
> It is a difficult line to walk to correct someone in a loving way, in a
> way that does not give undue offense. The Christian message *is*
> offensive to those who wish to do their own thing or hear what they want
> to hear.
I totally agree. It just shocks them out from behind their walls
and puts them face to face with love. It's the most gut wrenching
thing *I've* ever experienced.
>> Someone even went so
>> far as to call the love of two people an abomination!
>
> That 'someone' is God in His word. Further, the condemnation is of
> certain actions, not love.
No, it's not. The person said that love was the abomination. In
that paragraph he didn't say that just the act was. That's how
much misunderstanding there is about Christianity.
>> And you say I am not a part of Christianity? No one in this
>> conference talks about love more than I do.
>
> Its is easy to say love, love, but true love corrects error that has
> eternal consequences.
True. And I hope you find that love.
>> Christianity is not about having all the answers and doing everything
>> perfectly.
>
> Where have you heard otherwise? Have I not said Jesus is *the* answer.
> He's the only one that matters for salvation. I stated the following in
> 398.139:
No. You matter for your own salvation. He's there, you have to
do something with it, not just bury it in the ground for fear of
losing it. The Master will be very ticked off if He finds you've
done that.
> You seem to believe that God works to improve what we start out with.
> This is not what Scripture tells us. God does not take what have and "fix
> it". When we become Christian, God gives us a new nature. Our old nature
> is "put to death". God does not improve it. He replaces our old nature
> with His in an ongoing process.
Same difference. Improve what's there or replace a piece at a time.
The effect and appearance is the same.
>> His main message: Love God, Love your neighbor, I accept.
>
> Once again, this is not His main message, at least not in the sense of
> your understanding of "Love God".
You do not see inside my heart. I love God because I love to love
God. Many people pretend to love God because He has power over them.
Joyous and freely give love is what God is all about. The trouble
with forced love is that it often gets twisted.
> Encompassed in loving God is the
> acceptance of what Jesus did for us. Without this one cannot truly love
> God. This why Hinduism and other religions cannot truly know God. They
> reject who Jesus claimed to be and what He did for them (as only *He*
> could). This is crucial to understanding and loving the *true* God.
Once again you pretend to look into the hearts of millions and
see love missing. You are the one who is missing.
> Someone in whom God has placed a real desire to know Him will understand
> and accept Jesus when they hear about Him.
The Hindus have a long, long tradition of giving up *everything*,
status, wealth, comfort, company in a fierce desire to find God.
Their quest is as pure as any quest undertaken by a Christian.
Just because missionaries sent to India don't make any sense to
these people doesn't mean that Christianity is false. And in the
same way, just because these people don't think the way you do
doesn't mean they don't love God and God doesn't love them.
God is bigger than that.
> It is important to note that there is a difference between beliefs that
> save and beliefs that give greater understanding afterward. I was
> explaining that belief in Jesus is what you need to be right with God.
> "The rest", including deeper understanding, follows later. It *CAN NOT*
> come first!
You do not know the heart of God, either. Love is *so* much greater
than you have imagined. If you had you wouldn't be talking like this.
What is it about Love that makes so many of us cringe? It is the
living God in our midst! The Bible is just a pointer. Go where
it points. Don't just hide behind it. Don't bury your souls in
the ground.
Tom
|
| 1077.12 | | SUBSYS::LOPEZ | He showed me a River! | Thu May 23 1996 13:41 | 11 |
|
re.9
> 'Cause Christianity has nothing to do with the Jesus I know.
This is an important point, Tom.
Describe the Jesus you know and describe the Jesus you know about.
Regards,
Ace
|
| 1077.13 | | APACHE::MYERS | He literally meant it figuratively | Thu May 23 1996 15:15 | 8 |
| > What is Christianity without love?
A failure.
Love without Christ is an incomplete love.
Christ(ianity) without love is and incomplete Christ(ianity).
Eric
|
| 1077.14 | | THOLIN::TBAKER | Flawed To Perfection | Thu May 23 1996 15:22 | 18 |
| RE: .12
>> 'Cause Christianity has nothing to do with the Jesus I know.
>
>This is an important point, Tom.
>
>Describe the Jesus you know and describe the Jesus you know about.
You sure took *that* out of context. What I said was:
> Maybe you're right. Maybe love has nothing to do with Christianity.
> If that's the case YOU CAN KEEP IT! 'Cause Christianity has nothing
> to do with the Jesus I know.
This is to say that a "christianity" without the love that Jesus
lived and taught is not really Christianity and not worth practicing.
Tom
|
| 1077.15 | Real Love = Agape | SUBSYS::LOPEZ | He showed me a River! | Thu May 23 1996 18:02 | 21 |
|
re.14
Tom,
I realize nerves are a little frayed at this point. No malice intended in
my questions.
I agree with your statement. The question then is, what kind of love do you
think Jesus taught?
One problem we have in the English language is the word "love" is used to
describe all the different kinds of love. There's the divine love of God
(Agape), then there's a love in soul toward each other and toward pets, and love
of things like money, and physical love, etc. In the original language of the
Bible there is more distinction about "love". The agape of God is the purest and
highest love. The other loves go downhill from there 8*). The being not all
loves are the same.
Regards,
Ace
|
| 1077.16 | Thank you for letting me share | THOLIN::TBAKER | Flawed To Perfection | Thu May 23 1996 18:41 | 35 |
| >One problem we have in the English language is the word "love" is used to
>describe all the different kinds of love.
>There's the divine love of God (Agape),
Love.
>then there's a love in soul toward each other and toward pets,
Love. I view this as the stepping stone to love of God. It
shouldn't be taken lightly. It seems Jesus felt the same way :-)
All too often there are conditions placed on it. If we're lucky
life/God/whatever teaches us to drop the conditions and love
because we were born to love.
>and love of things like money,
Greed. Desire for security.
>and physical love, etc.
Just another "polite" word for sex. Like just about any other
activity it can be used as an expression of love. Between two
committed people it can deepen one's understanding of communion
with one's fellow spiritual traveler. I am hard pressed to
see where gender makes any difference here.
Sex without a spiritual connection is unfortunate. I believe
most sex is done in this attitude: Spiritually sterile.
Only the couple involved (and God) know where in this spectrum they are.
Tom
|
| 1077.17 | | SLBLUZ::CREWS | | Fri May 24 1996 11:17 | 13 |
| re .11 (Tom)
> If I told you "experience" you probably wouldn't believe me.
> You do not know the heart of God, either. Love is *so* much greater
> than you have imagined. If you had you wouldn't be talking like this.
What experience? I'm interested.
You seem to believe you have some special insight here. Correct?
Michael
|
| 1077.18 | Love AND Holiness | SLBLUZ::CREWS | | Fri May 24 1996 11:18 | 12 |
| "Truth demands confrontation; loving confrontation, but confrontation
nevertheless. If our reflex action is always accommodation regardless of
the centrality of the truth involved, there is something wrong. Just as
what we may call holiness without love is not God's kind of holiness, so
also what we may call love without holiness is not God's kind of love.
God is holy and God is love...a false spirit of accommodation is sweeping
the world as well as the Church, including those who claim the label of
evangelical."
Francis Schaeffer
The Great Evangelical Disaster
|
| 1077.19 | Love never reached the center | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Psalm 85.10 | Sat May 25 1996 16:17 | 10 |
| "What the story of the Christian Right needs is love as its driving vision.
Christian or not, the religious Right somehow has never done much with the
fact that God is love. They've never quite got it that Jesus lived and
died showing us how to love unlovely people (like us). So love never
reached the center of their story."
-- John Alexander
The Other Side magazine
May/June 1996
|
| 1077.20 | I hope this resembles coherency | THOLIN::TBAKER | Flawed To Perfection | Tue May 28 1996 14:24 | 83 |
| >>> I've always thought that the emphasis on love was a Christian thing.
>>> Am I wrong about that, too?
>>
>> It is not from Christianity, at least not the *all* part. I assumed this
>> stems from trying to reconcile Hinduism and Christianity. Where do you
>> get it from then? The Beatles? They also tried to mix these two.
>
> If I told you "experience" you probably wouldn't believe me.
Micheal:
> What experience? I'm interested.
Several years ago I had an experience while meditating. I mustered
enough faith to "let" God control the next 1/2 second or so without
putting my own agenda on it - removing my expectations for just
that moment. I surrendered, ever so slightly, to God. Please
realize that it only happened once.
My perception instantly changed. I felt I was in an ocean. Not
only that, but that I was just an outline in the ocean. I was
part of it with only the suggestion of an outline to make me
seem different from what was all around me. What was inside
was also outside. I somehow "knew" that the "ocean" had no
bounds - was infinite and it's essence is Love. My essence
is love. EVERYTHING'S essence is love.
My immediate reaction was, "I can't do this! I have a 9:00am
meeting I have to go to!", "snapped" out of it and I started to
laugh uncontrollably. The most profound experience of my life
is halted for a petty status meeting that no one to this day
remembers. It's amazing what we give up day to day for our small
understanding of the world.
Hallucination? Quite possibly. But I wouldn't be the first
person to put his faith in a vision. Besides, that experience
gave me a profound understanding of one interrpretation of
religion as I know it. EG: God is love. The Hindu mantra:
Om Namah Shiviya-I bow to God (the aspect of God that removes
what stands between me and God).
I discovered that surrendering to God can have very immediate
and real effects. I believe that an enlightened person lives
with this awareness constantly. *I* had a 9 o'clock meeting :*)
Absolute honesty, faith and fearlessness are essential for
union with God. (sound like someone you know? :-) Arrogance
must be erraticated. This is what I see as my duty for the
rest of my life - to develop these qualities. But knowing
that God permeates everything, everywhere I turn there is
help and encouragement. Even arguing with you guys has
helped me on my way. You, even those whom I dislike, are
pushing me closer to God. Without you I can't make it.
In small ways, day by day, I'm learning to love you because
you are my path to God. I believe union with God is another
name for heaven. Experiencing the love in me brings me
one step closer to God. God is everywhere.
And, no. It doesn't mean I agree with everything you say :-)
The greeting Hindus use, Namaste', means "I bow to that
part of God in you." Day by day, it sinks deeper into
my consciousness.
I was following a yoga discipline at the time. Since then
God has moved me towards Christianity - I believe because I
need to love my neighbor whom I have seen. This will give
me the skills/faith/honesty to go the next step - loving
God completely. Maybe some can do it without others. All
I need to know is that I can't. I'm using God's church
to try to get closer to Him. Imagine that? :-)
I am truely blessed. I'm not doing it myself. In a number
of ways it seems to be doing me. I'm certainly not "there"
yet, and I'm *FAR* from perfect, but I'm getting plenty of help.
That's why love is so important to me. I believe that that
is why love was so important to Jesus.
This isn't anything new. It has been talked about for centuries.
Only my understanding has changed.
Tom
|
| 1077.21 | | CNTROL::DGAUTHIER | | Tue May 28 1996 16:25 | 5 |
| Did it feel like YOU, as an individual existed? Sounds like a glimps of
santori, nirvana or enlightenment. Imagine what it must be like to be
like that all the time? I wonder if this is what Jesus was talking
about when he said that the kingdom of God is within.
|
| 1077.22 | | THOLIN::TBAKER | Flawed To Perfection | Tue May 28 1996 18:07 | 19 |
| > Did it feel like YOU, as an individual existed?
Yes. I had an "outline". But it almost seemed silly. Kinda like
screen windows on a submarine. What's the point?
> Imagine what it must be like to be like that all the time?
I *think* or imagine that one gets there a little at a time.
To have absolute faith in that God's love is more real than
anything else.
I believe that God uses visions to either give prophets something
to talk about or to help those who have had to stay after school
for extra help (they needed the inspiration to keep going) and
probably everything in between.
As I said, I've had plenty of help...
Tom
|
| 1077.23 | | SMART2::DGAUTHIER | | Wed May 29 1996 10:05 | 13 |
| > Yes. I had an "outline". But it almost seemed silly. Kinda like
> screen windows on a submarine. What's the point?
It's just that it sounds remarkably similar to a lot of the eastern
stuff where the notion of "self" wanes when one enters a higher level
of consciousness.
There are many who spend their whole lives striving for this sort of
thing. I'm not sure, but I'd guess it's a common experience called by
many different names (depending on what religion you happen to be
inclined to believe).
-dave
|
| 1077.24 | | SLBLUZ::CREWS | | Wed May 29 1996 10:53 | 6 |
| Tom,
Thanks for sharing that (re .20). I hope to respond soon but am a bit
busy at the moment.
Michael
|
| 1077.25 | | SLBLUZ::CREWS | | Fri Jun 07 1996 10:38 | 108 |
| Re .11
>>> From what I've read in this conference I've seen words
>>> that I believe go against Christainity over and over. Total
>>> lack of compassion, rules before love.
>>
>> Was not Jesus showing love when He told Jews they would die in their sins
>> if they did not believe He was God? They sure didn't think so, but He
>> was.
>
> I understand what you said, but not in the context of what you quoted
> just before it. Please explain.
The Jews didn't perceive Jesus' warning and teaching as loving. In the
same way, your remarks imply that you perceive loving correction and
admonition in this conference as unloving just as the Jews did when Jesus
confronted them.
> That's why I keep talking about love, even if some in this
> conference don't think it's an important part of Christianity.
Where did you ever get the idea that some [Christians] in this conference
don't think love is an important part of Christianity? Your using a broad
brush here with the word love when you should know that those you refer to
are not using love in the same context.
>> Once again, this is not His main message, at least not in the sense of
>> your understanding of "Love God".
>
> You do not see inside my heart.
You've taken this out of context. This statement cannot stand without the
next: "Encompassed in loving God is the acceptance of what Jesus did for
us." I was saying that your understanding of loving God does not include
the acceptance of what Jesus did for us as a necessity for our
understanding of who God is. *YOU* stated previously that you don't
believe that Jesus' death on the cross is necessary for salvation for
all men.
>> This why Hinduism and other religions cannot truly know God. They
>> reject who Jesus claimed to be and what He did for them (as only *He*
>> could). This is crucial to understanding and loving the *true* God.
> Once again you pretend to look into the hearts of millions and
> see love missing.
I'm not questioning their love or commitment. I'm saying that they don't
love the same God (as evidenced by their failure to accept God on His own
terms).
Jesus said (John 3:18): "Whoever believes in him [the Son of God, Jesus]
is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already
because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."
> The Hindus have a long, long tradition of giving up *everything*,
> status, wealth, comfort, company in a fierce desire to find God.
> Their quest is as pure as any quest undertaken by a Christian.
Christianity is not a quest! *ALL* attempts to reach God on our own are
doomed to fail. In our human pride we delude ourselves into thinking that
we can reach Him on our own; that sin is not that important or that we can
balance it with "good works" or "denial of self". We create a picture in
our mind of how we expect God to be and we pursue it. God, knowing there
was no other way, came to us and showed Himself to us! He gave us the
only means by which we can know Him and have a relationship with Him. It
is recorded in the Bible. If they (anybody) don't accept God on His own
terms then He will let them go their own way and spend an eternity
separated from Him (hell).
> just because these people don't think the way you do
> doesn't mean they don't love God and God doesn't love them.
First, this is not a subjective issue. God is the way He is, period. As
I said previously, God revealed Himself to us. We don't get to vote on
how we are to think about Him. He has told us who He is. Second, I never
said that God doesn't love them or that their love is not sincere. But if
someone truly loves God then they will accept the sacrifice He made for
them and believe He is who He says He is; not what they want Him to be.
> You do not know the heart of God, either. Love is *so* much greater
> than you have imagined. If you had you wouldn't be talking like this.
Yes I do! He reveals His heart in the Scriptures and through His Son.
Jesus said, "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father." His spirit lives
in my heart. I don't need to imagine the greatness of God's love. I
experience it! I talk like I am talking out of love for others that are
lost.
> The Bible is just a pointer. Go where it points.
The Bible points to Jesus (only) as God; that He died for *ALL* mankind,
paying the penalty for our rebellion against Him; that because of this,
and *ONLY* because of this, we can know God personally; that there is
*NOTHING* we can do to earn it; and that just as He rose from the dead we
too will be raise to eternal life with Him.
This is where the Bible points. It's message bears no resemblance to what
the Hindus, the Buddhists, Islam, etc., espouse. You should *READ IT*
while praying that God will reveal His truth to you. See where it really
points. Start with the Gospel of John.
Michael
|
| 1077.26 | Christian Theology | SLBLUZ::CREWS | | Fri Jun 07 1996 10:40 | 122 |
| Tom,
You have said on numerous previous occasions:
> The Bible is just a pointer. Go where it points.
Let me tell you in more detail where it points. I need to review some
basic Christian theology with you (FROM THE BIBLE).
There are two spiritual kingdoms. The kingdom of God and His angels, and
the kingdom of Satan and his demons who are fallen angels in rebellion
against God.
At the beginning, God gave Adam and Eve a choice (greatly simplified),
reliance on Him alone or self-reliance. Satan and his followers had
already chosen self-reliance and were determined that mankind would also.
Hence Satan tempted Eve, promising her she would be like God if she
disobeyed. When Adam and Eve chose self-reliance, by their disobedience,
they died spiritually. Their fellowship with God was severed and they had
no hope of restoring it. So it is with their descendants. (Rom 5:12,
1 Cor 15:21-22)
The entire human race is in the kingdom of darkness by default due to our
sinful (rebellious) nature. But God loves us too much to leave us here
with no hope. He promised Eve that He would defeat Satan and his ways
through one of her descendants (Jesus). Gen 3:15
Jesus is the *ONLY* man not born with our sinful nature. The creator
entered the creation as a man. He lived a perfectly sinless life. He
accepted the punishment for the sin of *ALL* mankind (the descendents of
Adam and Eve) as only He could (as God). He rose from the dead and still
lives today.
When a person accepts who Jesus is and what He did for us, that person
receives a new nature. The old sinful nature is "put to death" with Jesus
on the cross (Rom 6). All our sins, past, present, and future, are
forgiven. A new nature is given. God (the Holy Spirit) comes and lives
in the heart of the Christian. This is what Jesus meant when He said: "no
one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." (John 3:3) We
are born spiritually into God's family. When Christians are resurrected
to eternal life with God only the new godly nature will survive.
The person who becomes a Christian has left the kingdom of darkness and is
now a member of the kingdom of God. There is a war going on for the souls
of men. Satan prowls the earth like a roaring lion (2 Pet 5:8) and will
do his best to deceive us about God and his true nature and plan for
rescuing us. He can even present himself as benevolent; a force for good.
"Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising,
then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness."
2 Cor 11:14-15
Jesus set us free! No longer guilty! We don't have to be perfect! We
only need to accept Christ! But we do need to know who Christ is. His
word is the measure by which we know Him.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now for the application of how this pertains to some of your replies.
Re .11
>> You seem to believe that God works to improve what we start out with.
>> This is not what Scripture tells us. God does not take what have and "fix
>> it". When we become Christian, God gives us a new nature. Our old nature
>> is "put to death". God does not improve it. He replaces our old nature
>> with His in an ongoing process.
>
> Same difference. Improve what's there or replace a piece at a time.
> The effect and appearance is the same.
NOT THE SAME DIFFERENCE! Our sinful nature is not of God and is not
recoverable. A new godly nature, that is given by God when we believe, is
all that survives (ref -1).
Re .20
> Several years ago I had an experience while meditating. I mustered
> enough faith to "let" God control the next 1/2 second or so without
> putting my own agenda on it - removing my expectations for just
> that moment. I surrendered, ever so slightly, to God.
Believe it or not, I don't rule out the possibility that you had a real
"experience". However, I know that we will strongly disagree on the
origin of this experience. You believe it to be from God and I do not
(based on what God tells us in Scripture).
In the process of emptying your mind of your own expectations you open
yourself to input from supernatural sources. This is *NOT* how God has
told us we must approach Him and His kingdom. If you open yourself in
this manner God will allow it. You have no control, however over which
kingdom responds to you. God allows you to see and receive that which you
are already predisposed to see. The other kingdom is more than willing to
give visions that lead people from further away from the true God.
Satan and his minions are able to create visions that can give you an
ocean of "warm fuzzies" and love when they masquerade as angels of light
(2 Cor 11:14-15).
This is partly why God has forbidden all manner of spiritual self-
exploration. This is what I was referring to in 398.120 when I said that
mysticism was forbidden (specifically attempts to explore the spiritual
side of life on our own) (Deut 18:10). Satan is eagerly waiting to
deceive those who try to find God this way.
Secondly, this is an attempt to reach God on our own, using our own
methods. He doesn't like this anymore today than He did at the tower of
Babel.
How do we know if an experience or vision is from God? Test it against
His word. If it does not agree or build upon what God has told us in
Scripture *IT IS NOT OF GOD*. This is why it is so important to trust the
word of God as our measure of who God is. Otherwise you are adrift at sea
with no anchor.
In summary, you seem willing to risk an eternity apart from God based on a
1/2 second experience of questionable (though not by believers) origin.
Michael
|
| 1077.27 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Psalm 85.10 | Sun Jun 09 1996 12:58 | 6 |
| Does God see humans more in terms of how well they have their doctrine nailed
down or does God see humans more in terms of how they live their lives?
Shalom,
Richard
|
| 1077.28 | FEAR | THOLIN::TBAKER | Flawed To Perfection | Mon Jun 10 1996 10:54 | 2 |
| > -< What is Christianity without love? >-
|
| 1077.29 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs. | Mon Jun 10 1996 10:56 | 15 |
| Z Does God see humans more in terms of how well they have their doctrine
Z nailed down or does God see humans more in terms of how they live their
Z lives?
Well, no question it would be the latter. Nicodemus and many of the
pharisees of his time thought it was the former. They took great pride
their knowledge of scripture...so much so that they added many laws
that weren't scriptural.
Applying this to our own C-P, the bone of contention seems to be what
exactly defines love, when does our love for others conflict with our
love for God, and does exhortation and admonition preclude love. I
believe it doesn't but apparently others believe differently.
-Jack
|
| 1077.30 | More to God than words in a book | THOLIN::TBAKER | Flawed To Perfection | Mon Jun 10 1996 11:29 | 99 |
| > Where did you ever get the idea that some [Christians] in this conference
> don't think love is an important part of Christianity? Your using a broad
> brush here with the word love when you should know that those you refer to
> are not using love in the same context.
I see mostly fear and fear mongering.
> next: "Encompassed in loving God is the acceptance of what Jesus did for
> us." I was saying that your understanding of loving God does not include
> the acceptance of what Jesus did for us as a necessity for our
> understanding of who God is. *YOU* stated previously that you don't
> believe that Jesus' death on the cross is necessary for salvation for
> all men.
As time goes on I am seeing the significance of Jesus's death.
When I look at my petty concerns and the little things that are
keeping me from God I can compare my hangups with He did. My
problems seem very small in comparison. It reminds me of the
two rules of life:
1. don't sweat the small stuff
2. it's all small stuff.
However, I still believe the life and teaching of Christ offers
more than just His death. I believe His death is just part of
his teaching.
> I'm not questioning their love or commitment. I'm saying that they don't
> love the same God (as evidenced by their failure to accept God on His own
> terms).
You do not know the totality of God's "terms". You cannot see into
His heart. You only know what someone else wrote about it.
> Christianity is not a quest! *ALL* attempts to reach God on our own are
> doomed to fail.
Obviously we can't do it ourselves. But it's silly not to make
the effort. We should try to meet Him half way. Isn't that what
you do by going to church, praying, trying to follow the laws
and study scripture. You're looking for God. I hope God will
(continue to) reveal Himself to you.
> First, this is not a subjective issue. God is the way He is, period. As
True. But as I'm fond of saying: God is big, real big. The part
you perceive appearently is not exactly the part I do. It's the
same God, only our perceptions are different.
> I said previously, God revealed Himself to us. We don't get to vote on
Some more recently than others :-)
> how we are to think about Him. He has told us who He is. Second, I never
> said that God doesn't love them or that their love is not sincere. But if
> someone truly loves God then they will accept the sacrifice He made for
> them and believe He is who He says He is; not what they want Him to be.
No. You want them to accept God on YOUR terms. Anything outside
your conceptions is suspect and accused of being from the devil.
>> You do not know the heart of God, either. Love is *so* much greater
>> than you have imagined. If you had you wouldn't be talking like this.
>
> Yes I do! He reveals His heart in the Scriptures and through His Son.
The Bible does not contain God. God contains the Bible.
> Jesus said, "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father." His spirit lives
> in my heart. I don't need to imagine the greatness of God's love. I
> experience it! I talk like I am talking out of love for others that are
> lost.
And God's spirit lives in my heart. I don't doubt He lives in yours
as well. But just because God's spirit lives in my heart doesn't mean
I can do no wrong. Nor does it mean you can do no wrong either. And
I talk as one who doesn't want someone to lead others astray.
I have an experience where:
1. I realize God's Love is the most pervasive force in
the universe.
2. I realize in a very profound way that God's essence
is Love. (this is backed up in scripture)
3. My faith in God becomes rock solid.
And now you're trying to scare me into believing that this was
all Satan's doing because it's not in some Book. God is more
than words in a book, no matter how wonderful that book is or
how much you worship it.
> This is where the Bible points. It's message bears no resemblance to what
> the Hindus, the Buddhists, Islam, etc., espouse. You should *READ IT*
> while praying that God will reveal His truth to you. See where it really
> points. Start with the Gospel of John.
I have been reading it and my faith grows in the way that God
prescribes *MY* faith to grow. Unfortunately, it's not the
way *YOU* think it should.
Tom
|
| 1077.31 | Christianity Produces Love | SLBLUZ::CREWS | | Mon Jun 10 1996 13:21 | 8 |
| What is Christianity without love? Not Christianity!
Christianity produces love (in the hearts of men).
Love (in the hearts of men) doesn't produce Christianity.
Michael
|
| 1077.32 | | SLBLUZ::CREWS | | Mon Jun 10 1996 13:24 | 17 |
| > Does God see humans more in terms of how well they have their doctrine nailed
> down or does God see humans more in terms of how they live their lives?
How we live our lives is important. Doctrine is important. Why do you
try to separate the two?
Without sound doctrine (understanding of who God is) how we live our lives
is irrelevant. Doctrine takes precedence (comes first). How we live our
lives is an outflowing response to God and a testimony to our faith. The
pharisees thought they had good doctrine, but they didn't. Their actions
show their lack of understanding.
Without the sacrifice of Christ *ALL* are lost. The GOOD Hindu is lost.
The GOOD Buddhist is lost. I didn't say it. I just believe it.
Michael
|
| 1077.33 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs. | Mon Jun 10 1996 13:43 | 10 |
|
Understanding the nature of God is paramount to understanding how to
live for Christ. Understanding God's nature comes primarily through
scripture.
God is no respector of persons, therefore, how well we have our
doctrine nailed down is of no consequence. It is how we use that
doctrine and apply it to our lives.
-Jack
|
| 1077.34 | A subjective judgment on my part, I realize | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Psalm 85.10 | Mon Jun 10 1996 21:10 | 13 |
| I don't presume to know with great precision how God sees things, but I
do have a pretty good idea of how I view things. ;-}
If one's walk (life) is clearly driven by a spirit of love, I'm willing
to overlook much of the coarseness in what one says (doctrine).
If one's walk (life) is clearly not driven by a spirit of love, I'm not
as willing to hear what one says (doctrine), no matter how articulate
or well developed it might be.
Shalom,
Richard
|
| 1077.35 | | SLBLUZ::CREWS | | Tue Jun 11 1996 12:41 | 26 |
| Re .33
> Understanding the nature of God is paramount to understanding how to
> live for Christ. Understanding God's nature comes primarily through
> scripture.
Jack, I agree with this completely!
> God is no respector of persons, therefore, how well we have our
> doctrine nailed down is of no consequence.
But I want to clarify this...
I agree with respect to salvation we need not have all our doctrinal
"ducks in a row". The Gospel is simple enough for a child to believe.
However, afterward acceptance and (maybe later) understanding of doctrine
(teachings essential to the Christian faith) must come. Without this we
cannot truly live our lives as disciples of Christ.
We should not remain "babes" in Christ (1 Cor 3:1) and we should be able
to give an account of why we believe as we do (1 Pet 3:15). Further, we
should "... be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will
be able to test and approve what God's will is." (Rom 12:2)
Michael
|
| 1077.36 | The Truth Often Offends | SLBLUZ::CREWS | | Tue Jun 11 1996 12:47 | 31 |
| Re .34 (and .27)
> If one's walk (life) is clearly driven by a spirit of love, I'm willing
> to overlook much of the coarseness in what one says (doctrine).
> If one's walk (life) is clearly not driven by a spirit of love, I'm not
> as willing to hear what one says (doctrine), no matter how articulate
> or well developed it might be.
Christians should not compromise the Gospel message in order to appease or
avoid offending those who are offended by the message itself. As I said
in 398.145, the Christian message is offensive. Jesus is called "A stone
of stumbling and a rock of offense" (1 Pet 2:8). He pulled no punches
with the Pharisees, WHOM HE LOVED, when he called them hypocrites, sons of
hell, blind guides, blind fools, whitewashed tombs, snakes and vipers (Mat
23:13-39).
This medium doesn't lend itself well to proper conveyance of love and
caring. I'm glad its not up to men to know what motivates another.
It seems we are using the word "doctrine" differently. The New Testament
application of the word is "ESSENTIAL teachings of the faith" and this is
the way I've been reading it.
If you meant (in .27) "How we live our lives as Christians is more
important than nuance (optional) teachings", I agree totally. But if you
mean, "How we live our lives is more important than the Gospel", I
couldn't disagree more.
Michael
|
| 1077.37 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Psalm 85.10 | Tue Jun 11 1996 15:36 | 10 |
| .36
> Christians should not compromise the Gospel message in order to appease or
> avoid offending those who are offended by the message itself.
And so, neither Tom nor I will compromise, even if it offends the
scripturalists.
Richard
|
| 1077.38 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs. | Tue Jun 11 1996 16:52 | 3 |
| ZZ even if it offends the scripturalists.
What's a scripturalist?!
|
| 1077.39 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Psalm 85.10 | Tue Jun 11 1996 22:19 | 8 |
| .38
> What's a scripturalist?!
A newly coined word, I guess.
Richard
|
| 1077.40 | Compromise what? | SLBLUZ::CREWS | | Wed Jun 12 1996 10:41 | 13 |
| .37
>> Christians should not compromise the Gospel message in order to appease or
>> avoid offending those who are offended by the message itself.
> And so, neither Tom nor I will compromise, even if it offends the
> scripturalists.
Compromise what? Are you saying you will compromise the Gospel in order
to avoid compromise with your own theology? Am I misunderstanding you?
Michael
|
| 1077.41 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Psalm 85.10 | Thu Jun 13 1996 01:25 | 8 |
| .40
>Am I misunderstanding you?
Doubtlessly. But you wouldn't be the first. 8-}
Richard
|
| 1077.42 | | SLBLUZ::CREWS | | Thu Jun 13 1996 10:59 | 87 |
| Re .30
> < More to God than words in a book >
Where have I ever said otherwise?
> I believe His death is just part of his teaching.
Jesus' entire ministry points to His death on the cross and it is the
central message of the Scripture. Jesus is called the "Lamb slain from
the foundation of the world" Rev 13:8. When He created the universe,
before mankind even existed, Christ knew we would rebel and knew He would
have to die to save us.
> You do not know the totality of God's "terms". You cannot see into
> His heart. You only know what someone else wrote about it.
Yes we do. He wrote them down for all to read. He came to us in the form
of a man and showed us His heart and nature. Are you denying God the
right to reveal His heart to us through the prophets?
> But it's silly not to make the effort. We should try to meet Him half way.
It's silly to make the effort. Jesus (God) did it all for us. All we
need to do is believe.
> Isn't that what you do by going to church, praying, trying to follow the
> laws and study scripture. You're looking for God.
Christians don't go to church they are the church. I pray to talk to God.
I obey God out of love for Him and respect for who He is. I study
scripture so that I may know His will. I'm not looking for God, He found
me!
> God is big, real big. The part you perceive appearently is not exactly
> the part I do. It's the same God, only our perceptions are different.
Either one of us is wrong or you believe in a God who is self-
contradictory. Jesus says He is God and the only way by which we can be
saved. You've previously denied this.
> You want them to accept God on YOUR terms.
No. On His terms. From His written testimony.
"We accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is greater because it is
the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. Anyone who
believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who
does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not
believed the testimony God has given about his Son. And this is the
testimony:
** God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has
** the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have
** life." 1 John 5:9-12
> Nor does it mean you can do no wrong either.
Where have I ever said I could do no wrong?
> And now you're trying to scare me into believing that this was
> all Satan's doing because it's not in some Book. God is more
> than words in a book, no matter how wonderful that book is or
> how much you worship it.
My intent was not to scare you but to share God's truth with you. God is
more than words in a book and no I don't worship it. But I believe it
*IS* God's word to us, no less relevant than a direct vision or encounter
with Him. You don't believe that and this is the crux of our differences.
> I have been reading it and my faith grows in the way that God
> prescribes *MY* faith to grow. Unfortunately, it's not the
> way *YOU* think it should.
What specifically are you reading? I've share numerous *CLEAR* examples
from God's word with you previously that directly contradict your stated
position.
Michael
|
| 1077.43 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs. | Thu Jun 13 1996 12:05 | 12 |
| Z But it's silly not to make the effort. We should try to meet Him half
Z way.
This was actually the sentence that got my attention.
How can we, a depraved sinful people possibly meet a Holy God half way?
It seems to me God would have to come all the way to us.
"No man cometh unto the Father except the Spirit of God draw him." I
believe the driving force of our faith actually comes from God alone!
-Jack
|
| 1077.44 | | THOLIN::TBAKER | Flawed To Perfection | Thu Jun 13 1996 14:13 | 75 |
| >> I believe His death is just part of his teaching.
>
> Jesus' entire ministry points to His death on the cross and it is the
> central message of the Scripture. Jesus is called the "Lamb slain from
> the foundation of the world" Rev 13:8. When He created the universe,
> before mankind even existed, Christ knew we would rebel and knew He would
> have to die to save us.
That still doesn't contradict my position. Yes, Christ had
to die to drive home His point. Why? Because we are so
dense.
> Are you denying God the
> right to reveal His heart to us through the prophets?
Don't be silly. But has he? Can His Heart be understood
through words?
> It's silly to make the effort. Jesus (God) did it all for us. All we
> need to do is believe.
So, what do we do? Sit around, drink wine and wallow in our hate
and indifference because we "believe" and so are "saved?" Belief
is a starting point, not an end unto itself.
> I'm not looking for God, He found me!
Having been found by someone doesn't mean you know where He is.
I suggest you start looking.
>> God is big, real big. The part you perceive appearently is not exactly
>> the part I do. It's the same God, only our perceptions are different.
>
> Either one of us is wrong or you believe in a God who is self-
> contradictory.
Whether or not God contradicts Himself is His business. The
possibility of a book being flawed in it's description of Him
is fully plausible.
> contradictory. Jesus says He is God and the only way by which we can be
> saved. You've previously denied this.
I didn't say He wasn't God. His way is the only way to salvation.
He is not the only one to have preached the path of Love.
>> And now you're trying to scare me into believing that this was
>> all Satan's doing because it's not in some Book. God is more
>> than words in a book, no matter how wonderful that book is or
>> how much you worship it.
>
> My intent was not to scare you but to share God's truth with you. God is
> more than words in a book and no I don't worship it. But I believe it
> *IS* God's word to us, no less relevant than a direct vision or encounter
> with Him. You don't believe that and this is the crux of our differences.
Did God tell you that my experience was from Satan? Or are you
mixing God's word with your opinion?
> What specifically are you reading? I've share numerous *CLEAR* examples
> from God's word with you previously that directly contradict your stated
> position.
Mathew 5 and 6. The Beatitudes.
"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God!"
I've caught a *glimpse* - however short. I know it is
true. I now have real motivation to (continue to) clean
up my act. This is the effort I have to expend. I see
nothing sinful about my effort. I believe God is leading
me. And I won't let someone else's interpretation of
Jesus's teaching slow me down.
Tom
|
| 1077.45 | An individual must excercise faith | RDGENG::YERKESS | bring me sunshine in your smile | Thu Jun 13 1996 14:15 | 42 |
| re .43
Jack,
; How can we, a depraved sinful people possibly meet a Holy God half way?
; It seems to me God would have to come all the way to us.
Yes, God took the iniative (1 John 4:9,10).
; "No man cometh unto the Father except the Spirit of God draw him." I
; believe the driving force of our faith actually comes from God alone!
Hebrews 11:6 shows that one cannot leave everything to God, it
reads "Moreover, without faith it is impossible to please [him]
well, for he that approaches God must believe that he is and that
he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him." NWT the
KJV reads similar.
Driving force of ones faith, comes from God, our hearts (love of God), and
examples of faith.
If it's not in ones heart, then faith will be like a lifeless corpse
(James 2:26).
Hebrews 11:1,2 reads "Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for,
the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld. For by means
of this the men of old times had witness borne to them." NWT
Such men of faith, were under comdemnation of sin but hoped for the
promised Messiah. For it to be reported in the Bible, God placed a high value
on the displaying of such faith by these individuals.
Further the excerising of faith can only come from the individual themselves.
God cannot excerise faith for them, however he gives the help of the holy
spirit aiding one to display the fruit of faith (Galations 5:22). Hence, a
person cannot think that they can display faith under their own strength for
they need Jehovah's help. Therefore supplication is required. We see this
with the account of Cornelius who at the time was not part of the Christian
congregation (Acts 10:1-4). Hence, it shouldn't be underestimated the role
an individual as to play in the excerising of faith for if it is dead what
does God have to work with?.
Phil.
|
| 1077.46 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs. | Thu Jun 13 1996 15:27 | 9 |
| Z That still doesn't contradict my position. Yes, Christ had
Z to die to drive home His point. Why? Because we are so
Z dense.
Yes, we are dense...but Jesus death was not an after thought. God the
Father prophesied this to Adam and Eve in the garden. Christ died not
to drive a point, but to, as he said, fulfill the law and the prophets.
-Jack
|