Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

1059.27>  Some day I may be able to deal intelligiently with Revelations.  I
1059.27>  cannot get over thinking it is just a bizarre book.


which is more than i will. i first studied revelations at the age of fourteen
and reading revelations made me throw the whole book into a corner (where it
stayed for twenty years). i felt that revelations was written by a sick mind, 
quite contrary to the spirit of the gospels.

rereading parts of it a good few months ago didn't change my view of 
revelations much.


andreas.

    Excellent masterpiece within the Bible.  Blessed are they who readeth!!
    
    Don't put your head in the sand.  For there will be such great
    tribulation such as the world has not seen nor will ever see again. 
    And these words were uttered by Jesus himself in the gospel of Matthew!
    
    -Jack

    Gee,
    
    Maybe someone can convince me that there is something worthwhile in the
    book!
    
                                       Patricia

re .2

 Patricia,

 Jehovah's Witnesses are studying this book in great depth at
 the moment in their weekly book study. We have just studied
 why the Lamb is worthy to open the scroll that has seven 
 seals and I look forward to see what's in the scroll.
 Previously, we studied Revelation 4 which gives us a glimpse
 into heaven and Jehovah's throne using symbolic language.
 From this we learnt about God's magnificence, splendour,
 qualities and the need to be at peace with him. That he
 has a perfect organisation in the heavens and John was
 given a glimpse of his future and that of his brothers and
 sisters who receive a heavenly resurrection as pictured by
 the 24 elders. 

 Revelation 1:10a NWT reads "By inspiration I came to be in the Lord's
 day," so the visions that John sees have significance for those 
 living in the Lord's day. Jesus' message to the 7 congregations
 are directed to all the congregations living during this time
 period, ones lasting happiness is at stake at listening and
 observing the things Jesus says (Revelaton 1:3).

 Also, we can't see what's happening in the heavens. But we can
 read about events that do happen in the Lord's day. For example,
 each year at Christmas Jesus is shown to be a baby in a crib but
 the book of Revelation tells us the things that he is accomplishing
 today. Surely this should have more significance to those who profess
 to be followers of Christ.

 The book of Revelation gives hope and encouragement to God's 
 people, for by studying it one can see prophecies being fullfilled
 even in our day. It also shows God's will and purpose for the
 future, surely Revelation 21:3,4 gives hope to those who moan
 and groan over the detestable things that we see daily in the news.

 It's unlikely that I can personally convince you but you can find 
 ones who will help you interpret this book. I can only say that
 I look forward to our book study each week. 

 Phil.

    Patricia:
    
    Just as a resource, you may want to read a book such as, "There's a New
    World Coming" by Hal Lindsay.  Keep in mind that Hal holds one point of
    view on dispensationalism...you don't have to agree with him on
    everything.  But reading a book like this can still broaden ones
    understanding on how to approach this portion of scripture.  
    
    -Jack

	The author of the Revelation was very probably neither the author of
the Gospel of John nor the three letters bearing the name John.

Shalom,
Richard

    Hmmm....Interesting.  What is the basis for this belief??
    
    -Jack

From the introduction to The Revelation in the TEV (American Bible Society):

	"The Revelation of John was written at a time when Christians were
being persecuted for their faith in Jesus Christ as Lord.  The writer's
main concern is to give his readers hope and encouragement, to urge them
to remain faithful during times of suffering and persecution.

	For the most part the book consists of several series of revelations
and visions presented in symbolic language that would have been understood by
Christians of that day, but would have remained a mystery to all others.  As
with themes of a symphony, the themes of this book are repeated again and again
in different ways through the various series of visions.  Although there are
differences of opinion regarding the details of interpretation of the book,
the central theme is clear: the Christ the Lord, God will finally and totally
defeat all his enemies, including Satan, and will reward his faithful people
with the blessings of a new heaven and a new earth when the victory is
complete."

Shalom,
Richard

.4> "There's a New World Coming" by Hal Lindsay.  

jack, do you have the isbn for the book?


thanks,
andreas.

    Andreas:
    
    I'm afraid I don't.  I loaned the book to my father who loaned it to
    somebody else...and now it is lost.  
    
    Try to get a copy ... it is very thought provoking and lays things out
    for a novice such as myself!!
    
    -Jack

is the author trying to apply the prophecies of revelations to our present time?

what do you mean when you write that the author has a "dispensationalist" bias?



andreas.

ps. have now spotted topic 25 with regards to the question on dispensationalism.

.7

>    Hmmm....Interesting.  What is the basis for this belief??

Consult nearly any decent commentary or scholarly, critical work concerning
the Bible (not Hal Lindsey).  I took a course on the history of the New
Testament.

The question I have is, why would one believe anything else?

Shalom,
Richard

    Oh, so you believe Hal Lindsey not not be a reputable source for this?  
    Well, maybe you know something I don't know but I read the book and it
    didn't seem contradictory to me.
    
    ZZZ  The question I have is, why would one believe anything else?
    
    This is what I was taught.  According to church history, John the
    apostle pastored the church at Ephesus and took Mary, Jesus' mother
    with him.  Mary passed away and according to Polycarp, one of Johns
    students and a historian of that time, John was banished and exiled to
    the Island of Patmos.  
    
    Of course there is the viable possibility that there was another John
    on Patmos...Jesus revealed himself to many different people during
    those times.  
    
    You'll find authorship is something I am by no means dogmatic about.  I
    do however, find the inspiration credible regardless of the one who
    penned it!
    
    -Jack

      Revelation is a beautiful book.  But, it is so coded, so 
      veiled that its beauty lays underneath.
    
      If one's method of Bible study is compartmentalized, one
      may as well discard Revelation.  It won't do a whole lot of
      good to approach one single book of the Bible and to think,
      "I'm going to find out what THIS means!!!"
    
      If one studies the Bible like the Bible exhorts us to study 
      it, it will open up and reveal more and more the underlying
      beauty.  Line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little
      there a little.  Because God presented His word with a stammering
      tongue and a foreign language.  Isaiah 28.
    
      Its a love story through and through.
    
     						Tony

   RE:  <<< Note 1061.2 by POWDML::FLANAGAN "I feel therefore I am" >>>
    
      >>  Gee,
    
      >>  Maybe someone can convince me that there is something worthwhile in
      >>  the book!
    
                                        >>   Patricia
    
    
    Hi,
    
    I'am sure there is a lot of things written in the bible book Revelation
    that will not only convice you but, also make you a perfect
    bible_Student on this most exciting 66th book of Scriptures.
    
    First, there is some interesting reading in Note Topic 235.42 up till
    Note Topic 235.86. (Eschatology/Apocalypse & End of Times)
    
    Like Phil Yerkess already noted, we as JW'S are busy studying this last
    biblebook, and this......for the 3rd time. 
    Yesterday evening at the bookstudy (held in the house of a JW like the
    first century Christians did) we aproached the chapter where the 
    first of the seven seals where broken.
    For a thourough understanding it will last for years before you can 
    understand this biblebook.
    
    
    Rgds,
    Alex
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    I suspect if I am going to gain any respect for the book of Revelation
    it will be in the understanding of apocolyptic thought from Daniel, the
    Apocrophyia (sp) to Revelation.
    
    It will also include a psychological study of the religion of the
    oppressed.  What is it about Revelation that gave hope to a persecuted
    population.
    
    It will be in study the messianic expectation from early Hebrew
    history, through Jesus' time and after his death and the passage of
    time.
    
    It will also have to be in relationship to the Joahanine community
    beginning with the premise that the Joahanine literature(The Gospel,
    the three Epistles, and Revelation) are all related to the same
    community yet with different authors and a different time period.
    
    My difficulty in reading Revelation is in my own literalism.  since I
    intellectually do not believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible,
    I should not be stuck in my own literalism.  When I read Revelation I
    can focus on the small community that will see the glory of God.  I
    focus on the vast community earmarked forf torture and I know that God
    is not a God of Torture.  so the trick is to be able to read the book
    of Revelation as a human response to a particular set of circumstances
    and not as a Divine Code.
    
    Since I do know where I am stuck in my study, there is hope that
    eventually I will get unstuck.  right now however, Revelation is not
    on top of my investigation list.
    
                               Patricia
    
    

re .17

Patricia,

You will need to go back to the book of Genesis
and not just Daniel onwards to get a full 
appreciation for the book of Revelation.

However, Revelation does help you in places to 
know what should be interpretted literal or symbolic. 
Take for example, your concern over the torture, 
Revelation 20:10 that talks of a "lake of fire"
where those pitched into will be tormented day and 
night, forever and ever. One could easily take 
this literal as pointing to a literal fiery
place, however verse 14 NWT tells us that it is
symbolic for it says "And death and Hades 
were hurled into the lake of fire. This means
the second death, the lake of fire." So the
"lake of fire" is not literal (also torturing
death and Hades is meaningless) but is symbolic
of the "second death".

Other parts of the Bible tells us that burning
people in a fiery hell is inconsistent with
God's fine qualties such as love and justice.
By digging deeper and finding out what is really
meant the "second death" one can use that 
information to show others that God does not burn 
people in hellfire and thereby one can play a part 
in sanctifying God's name of which the hellfire 
teaching besmirches.

Phil.

.17>  It will also include a psychological study of the religion of the
.17>  oppressed.  What is it about Revelation that gave hope to a persecuted
.17>  population.

i suspect that a study of prevailing philosophical thought and of greek/roman
religious beliefs at the time would also be very helpful for decoding the 
symbolism in revelation, patricia.

it was my impression that the symbolism in revelation is rather crude and 
of different quality than the symbolism of the gospels. i suspect that if one
was to make the case that the bible is not written in the unchanging spirit 
of the divine, but rather by man to suit his needs, then revelation would
have to be the easiest book to tackle for this purpose.



andreas.

    Andreas,
    
    I do believe that the Bible is written by humans to record human needs. 
    I believe that the Bible still inspires because, in so doing it does 
    point to Divinity.  I think symbolism works best when it cannot be
    completely decoded.  I suspect that the symbolism in Revelation is also
    rich.  I do agree that a study of Greek and Roman as well as Jewish
    Philosophy helps in the interpretation of all Biblical writings.
    
                                    Patricia

Note 1024.0

I jokingly say each year that for lent I'm giving up my New Year's resolutions.
The truth is I've got one under way and one to go.

>    	To reach out to my cousins and other relatives with whom I've not
>    been in contact with for years due to geographical distance.

Initiated.
    
>    	To study indepth the Revelation of St. John the Divine.
    
As of yet, unaccomplished.

I'm hoping to gleen some new knowledge and insight through this string.

Shalom,
Richard

    re: <<< Note 1061.17 by POWDML::FLANAGAN "I feel therefore I am" >>>
    
    
    Patricia,
    
    Now it is my turn to say; GEE......
    
    Although Revelation is not on top of your investigation right now,
    Psalm (I can't remember right now which chapter and verse) is 
    telling us that a man has only 70 years to live and 80 years for
    the physical strong ones.
    What you mentioned in your reply is an awfull lot of material to
    consume that, if you succeed, at least you will be a kind of
    professor in theology when you finished.
    
    A question arose when reading your letter , and that is;
    
    Is it necessary to do such a huge kind of study to grow more
    in faith?
    I mean studying all kind of material outside the bible to
    have a better understanding of bible related topics.
    After all, the bible itself says that it is selfcontained.
    
    regards,
    Alex
    
    
    
    

    Alex:
    
    Have you ever used a greek concordance?  Have you ever used any form of
    encyclopedia of OT history?...or NT history?  Have you ever used
    Watchtower material to get clarification on a topic of study?  If so,
    then you have gone beyond the scope of Gods Word to gain insight on the
    nature and person of Jehovah.  Have you ever taken instruction from a
    discipler?  If so, then you have taken instruction out of the scope of
    the Word of God.  The only difference is that a discipler pours his/her
    life into the disciple and instructs.  An outside source such as a
    commentary is a tool to gain better insight on the word of God.
    
    I believe it is appropriate and even necessary at times to reference
    study outside the Word of God from those who have maturity and
    knowledge in the faith.  Yes, the Bible is self contained but remember
    the Ethiopian eunich?  "How can I understand unless someone explains it
    to me?"  I believe commentarys, concordances, and topical study
    materials are quite appropriate for this.
    
    Rgds.,
    
    -Jack

    RE .22
    
    Alex,
    
    I do aspire to be a Theologian.  The more I study the Bible the more
    Powerful I see that it is. 
    
    The more I study the Bible, the more clear I am on how it can be misused!
    
    I see the misuse of the Bible as sinful and evil.  I am feeling that
    part of my calling is to bring the Bible to those who have hereto
    rejected it because of its misuse, and to expose its misuse so that it
    can be truly seen as a Revelation of the Divine.
    
    The Bible is not a self contained book.  It cannot be understood
    separate from the cultural context in which it was written.  Each word
    of the Bible had a particular meaning and nuance to the people who
    wrote them and heard them.  Each concept was either familiar to the
    general philosophy of the day or was a new biblical philosophy.  It is
    critical to know what in the Bible is comparable to other world views
    of the time, and which is unique.
    
    Becoming an expert on the Bible takes a lifetime of study.  I am
    intrigued by the possibility of that kind of intense study.  I've just
    gotten a late start.
    
                                   Patricia
    

    re:   <<< Note 1061.24 by POWDML::FLANAGAN "I feel therefore I am" >>>
                              -< Lifetime study >-
    
    
    
    Patricia:
    
    First of all thanks for your answer on my question.
    I was just curious about your relationship with Scriptures itself.
    
    >> The more I study the Bible the more Powerful I see that it is.
    >> The more I study the Bible, the more clear I am on how it can
    >>   be misused!
    
    That's the way I, not only see that it is but, also feel the power
    of the Bible.
    The Bible itself says that it penetrate through the hart and the kidneys,
    when people start to study and meditate on it.
    
    >> Becoming an expert on the Bible takes a lifetime of study, I am
    >> intrigued by the possibility of that kind of intence study.
    >> I've just gotten a late start.
    
    You're right about that. It will take a lifetime to become 
    an expert on the Bible. I think it is not that important WHEN 
    you did your first step to study the Bible, the secret is: are you   
    prepared to continue a lifetime, and especially when discouragements 
    starts?   
    As Biblexaminers (the way they use to call Jehovah's Wittenesses in
    the past) we have some advantages.
    We do receive twice a month The Watchtower (Jack mentioned it in .23)
    This magazine is totally based on the Bible. With illustrations and
    a lot of explanations of Bible passages, it is a good help to study
    the Bible continuously.
    Like JW's believe, we (people who really love God) will continue studying 
    the Bible everlasting, because we cannot accumulate all 
    the wisdom of God in a lifetime.
    
    Till next time,
    Alex                
    
     
    
    

    re: <<< Note 1061.23 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "You-Had-Forty-Years!!!" >>>
    
    Hi Jack,
    
    >> Have you ever used a greek concordance?  Have you ever used any form of
    >> encyclopedia of OT history?...or NT history?  Have you ever used
    >> Watchtower material to get clarification on a topic of study? 
    
    Yes I did.
    
    If so,then you have gone beyond the scope of Gods Word to gain insight
    on the  nature and person of Jehovah.Have you ever taken instruction
    from a discipler? If so, then you have taken instruction out of the
    scope of the Word of God?
    
    Yes I did.  etc...
    
    Jack, like I wrote to Patricia, I was just curious about her 
    relationship with Scripture.
    I read a lot of her writings, and because this medium is not
    the perfect way to look somewhat deeper into a person ,
     I asked those questions in my previous note.
    
    Jack, is it coincindence or not? We met again in a note having 
    the subject Revelation. Like I already wrote we start again with
    this Bible book in our congreation. 
    I have a question for you to answer if time permits, like me now.
    BTW: The moderator (Richard) is also looking for new insight
    on this subject.
      
    Do you agree with me that the 4 symbolic Horses in revelation is
    the manifestation of Wars, Starvation, etc..all over the world 
    in our time?
    If it suits you I like to discus one subject at the time.
    This time the 4 Horses.
    
    The last subject was the 7-churches in the first century.
    Although I didn't agree with you about the lampstands and the stars in
    the right hand of Jesus Christ, lets put it for another time.
    
    till next time
    Alex.    

>    This time the 4 Horses.

yes please! :-)

would anyone in the know please explain how four horses can ride in the sky, 
what these horses really mean and on what grounds the explanation is based?



andreas.

ps. richard is no longer a moderator......these were the good olde days as it
    would seem! :-) 

      Hi,
    
        Just a couple ideas on those horses.
    
        First off, I believe the whole of Revelation has a historicist
        as well as an endtime application.  By historicist, I mean that
        there is fulfillment from the perspective of the early church 
        straight through to the end of time.  By endtime, I mean that 
        those same images that tell us something about the entire church
        age also have application to the endtimes particularly.
    
        One thing I strongly believe is that so far as time prophecy is
        concerned, the times only fit with the historicist model and 
        they do so where a symbolic day is equal to a literal year.  For
        example, the 1260 days (= time, times and half a time = 42 mos.)
        has a 1260 year historicist fulfillment.  So also does the 70
        weeks of Daniel and the 1290 days of Daniel.  But, I don't believe
        the time aspect of these things has a last day fitting.  From an
        event standpoint, yes.  From a time standpoint, no.
    
        Recall that the 4 horses are within the seven seals.  Recall also
        that just previous to this, John is seen weeping because no one
        is able to unloose the sealed scroll.  Jesus is then found worthy
        because He went to the cross.
    
        I believe that it is painful to behold God's love because it shows
        us our sin.  (I've explained all this before.)  I believe that the
        scroll (ultimately) is Christ Himself who is the express image of
        the Father.  God has been trying to unfold in the hearts of His
        children a revelation of who He is.
    
        By going to the cross, Jesus demonstrated who the Father is.  By 
        virtue of this actual historical demonstration, Jesus has the
        right to unseal that scroll.  It is testified with His blood.
    
        The seven seals, so far as a historicist model is concerned, are
        simply a description of how unsealed His character is in His 
        faithful over time.  It shows the early church that was so zealous.
        It also shows the great falling away.
    
        As far as an endtime setting is concerned, I believe the seals show
        the exact same thing.  They also describe, in imagery, the pain 
        that is involved in seeing God's love.  Horses symbolize judgment.
        I can enter something on judgment if anyone is interested.
    
        The trumpets lie between the sixth and seventh seals.  The trumpets
        symbolize an outpouring of a revelation of God's law (= His right-
        eousness = His love).  Thats why they are right at the end.  In
        fact, the feast of trumpets prepared for the Day of Atonement.  
        Nehemiah 8 beautifully illustrates the practical meaning of the
        feast of trumpets.  It starts by saying it is the 1st day of the
        7th month (which is the feast of trumpets).   The LAW is being read
        to the nation (God's faithful and the world).  Its like the mirror
        in James.  It is REALLY coming into clarity - not so dim!  Check
        out the response of Israel during that time.  They are WEEPING.
        
        In antitype this means a people is seeing the cross to such a
        clarity that it is just rending their hearts and it is a bitter-
        sweet experience.  If you follow through with Nehemiah, you will
        see Day of Atonment imagery.  They are wearing sackloth and ashes.
        It is the goodness of God which leads to repentence and these
        people are seeing God's goodness like never before.  
    
        A lot of OT books have imagery of this unsealing.  Isaiah refers
        to a time the law just rings out and goes to the coastlands.  It
        speaks of a time they see "the King in His beauty" and "it will
        be a terror just to understand the report" (the report being a full
        revelation of what man is capable of - putting God on a cross).
    
        The finishing of the 7th trump culminates in just what Revelation
        says, "the mystery of God is FINISHED" which mystery according to
        Colossians is "Christ in you, the hope of glory."
    
        Finally the scroll is unsealed!  There is a certain finishing of
        a manifestation of Christ in His believers.  This has led to the
        repentence of the ages which has allowed Christ to so perfectly
        root out sin that His people are finally fully reconciled to the
        Father.  They can see Him face to face.  They no longer need a
        Mediator to give them the scraps.  They go right to the Father!!
    
        The atonement is finished.
    
        Thats what the scrolls and trumpets are.  A description of the
        unsealing of God's character of love.
    
        And it culminates in two groups.  One group was shown that mirror
        and instead of turning away from the mirror, turned away from sin.
        This group continued to behold that mirror in greater clarity.  The
        other group beheld the mirror and turned away from it.  But, here's
        this faithful group that is a fire in their midst.  They just 
        are saturated with Christs love and this revelation JUDGES the
        worldlings.
    
        The worldlings can't stand the guilt, the condemnation that comes 
        from beholding that love and seeing who they are in contrast.
    
        Enter the mark of the beast and the final demonstration of how
        good God is and how constraining His love is and of how bad sin is.
    
        I've rambled enough.
    
    						God Bless,
    
    						Tony
    
    

 re :<<< Note 1061.27 by DECALP::GUTZWILLER "happiness- U want what Uhave" >>>
                                      -< i'm in! >-
    
    
    
    Hi, Andreas,
    
    About the 4 horses:
    
    A very short explanation.  (Reference: Revalation Chapter 6.)
    ==========================
    
    Those 4 horses are not real but symbolic, so there nothing going on
    in the sky. The whole book is based on visions, showed to the beloved
    disciple of Jesus, and that is John the son of Zebedee.
    While John  is on the Island Patmos (this island still excist) as
    a prisoner because of talking (preaching) about Jesus, he received
    all the 16 visions written down in this last biblebook.
    
    When the bible is talking about war affairs, it mention most of the
    time horses. See e.g: Psalms, Proverbs and Isaiah.
    
    The first horseman is Jesus Christ. The bible refer refer to a 
    righteous war.
    The second horse is reddish, and this horseman when start his riding,
    it will take all peace from earth.
    The third horsemen, a skeleton with a balance it his hands, is the
    representation of foodshortages in this last days going on.
    The last horseman represent the death.
    A logical conclusion is: After a war definitly there is foodshortage,
    and thereafter a lot of people die.
    
    I hope this will help you doing further examination of this last
    Biblebook  called revelation.
    
    rgds,
    Alex
    

    I always believed the white horse to be Satan.  
    
    "And I saw the first seal opened and a hearing a loud thunder, I heard
    a voice saying, Go.  And behold, a White horse appeared and he that sat
    on it had a bow...and a crown was given unto him, and he went forth
    conquering and to conquer."  Revelation 6:1,2.
    
    It all ties in with ones view of dispensationalism.  Following the
    appearance of the white horse is war, famine, and death as Alex pointed
    out.  In Daniel, the prophesy states that AntiChrist will come and make
    a covenant with Israel.  I see the White horse as the fulfillment of
    this covenant.  He will come as a leader of peace...only to deceive the
    nations..and then sudden destruction.
    
    It is not until chapter 17 or 18 that Jesus returns triumphantly.  He
    will appear on a white horse but this will differ from the white horse
    in Chapter 6.  This white horse will have a rider on it with his robe
    dipped in blood and on the side of his robe it says, The Word of God.  
    This is yet another reason we need to take the precepts of scripture
    seriously.
    
    -Jack

.29> Those 4 horses are not real but symbolic, so there nothing going on
.29> in the sky. 

as a matter of interest, how do you know that they are symbolic? does it say
so in the bible?




andreas.

re .31

Andreas,

Revelation 1:1 NWT reads "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which
God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly
take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented it in 
signs through him to his slave John,"

So the introduction shows that, this glimpse of a future event
was made known to John through "signs". This is similar to Daniel,
he was given "signs" eg beasts represented kingdoms. 

Phil.

then, from the discussion in here, i take it that the meaning of the signs 
has not been revealed?



andreas.

re .33

Andreas,

As Jehovah's Witnesses we believe that God is revealing
the meanings of these signs through his servants (or 
Christ's brothers) here on earth. 

Phil.

   re<<< Note 1061.31 by DECALP::GUTZWILLER "happiness- U want what U have" >>>
    
    
    Andreas,
    
    Just read Phil's answer about the white horse,
    hope you're satisfied with the answer.
    
    Alex.
    
    

.35>  hope you're satisfied with the answer.

i understand that the meaning of the signs is not given in the bible.

therefore, giving the signs meaning must be a matter of personal opinion.



andreas.

    Andreas:
    
    This is my perspective on the Book of Revelation...in a real nutshell.
    
    Chapter 1 - Jesus Christ reveals himself to John.
    
    Chapters 2 and 3 - The Lord reveals to John his messages to seven
    distinct local churches.  Of the seven churches, God has good things to
    say about 2 of the churches...that being the church of Smyrna and
    Philadelphia.  These churches did exist...they were real.  My personal
    belief is that each of these churches represent the sum of the whole
    church age and its progression throughout the last 2000 years.  It is
    just an opinion and in the end, I will find out one way or the other.
    At this point, you will not read in the Bible about the church anymore.
    I believe at this point the church will experience what is referred to
    in the Old Testament as the Blessed Hope.  We call it the rapture. 
    Jesus will take his church from the earth.  This is confirmed in 1st
    Thessolonians where it says.
    
    "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the
    voice of an archangel and with the trump of God.  And the dead in
    Christ shall rise first.  Then we which are alive and remain will be
    caught up together with them in the clouds, and meet with the Lord in
    the air.  And so shall we ever be with the Lord.  Wherefore, comfort
    one another with these words."  1st Thess. 4: 17,18.
    
    Chapter 4 - Back to Heaven.  It is revealed that nobody is worthy to
    open the seal of a book.  John wept bitterly because of this.  Then 
    it was shown to John that the Lion of Judah (Jesus) was worthy to open
    the seals.  
    
    At this point Andreas, this is the start of the most horrendous time in
    the history of man.  Jesus stated what this was in Matthew 23.
    
    "For there shall be great tribulation such as the world has not seen
    nor will ever see again."
    
    The first four seals, in my opinion, are the sumnation of a seven year
    tribulation period.  The 1st is a white horse...this is Satan.  This is
    confirmed in the book of Daniel where it tells us that a great leader
    will make a covenant with Israel.  Israel will see this leader as the
    messiah.  This is antichrist.
    
    -------------------------------------------------------
    
    This is a very involved book from this point on.  Perhaps this diagram
    will help
    
    Seals     1  2  3  4  5  6  7  
    
    Trumpet Judgements          1  2  3  4  5  6  7
    
    Bowl Judgements                               1  2  3  4  5  6  7    
    
    The seventh seal are the prelude to seven severe judgements called the 
    trumpet judgements.  They are somewhat similar to the judgements on
    Egypt during the time of Pharoah.  Very real and severe, yet each time
    there is an opportunity for the world to turn back to Jesus Christ.  
    The judgements aren't just there to punish, they are there as a coaxing
    from God to repent.  God sends his 144,000 witnesses throughout the
    world here.  Even angels are given the opportunity to share the gospel.
    Antichrist is persecuting believers at this time.  If you don't take
    the mark of the beast, six hundred, sixty and six, you cannot buy and
    sell and consequently, you are put to death.
    
    The seventh trumpet judgement is actually a period of silence.  This is
    very airy to me because it is actually the calm before the storm.  The
    bowl judgements are globally cataclysmic.  Once again, the world has
    the opportunity to repent after each judgement and fail to do so.  The
    seventh bowl is the battle of Armageddon where the Lord just wipes out
    all enemies and Satan is bound and thrown into the abyss.  At this
    point Christ returns with his followers and the 1000 year millineum
    begins.  
    
    Andreas, if you get anything out of this, understand this point.  God
    uses this time as a wake up call.  The end is near and God is
    attempting a last reaping of the harvest.  There isn't one person going
    through this that he doesn't love deeply, but remember that God is a
    holy God and will not compromise his holiness.  We must meet God on his
    terms, not ours.   
    
    -Jack  
                                                        
    

	The Revelation is typical of apocalyptic writings.  The essence
intended to the original readers is almost always something like this:

	"Things look pretty bad right now.  We are under siege by terrible
evils.  We're being persecuted, tortured and killed.  But no matter how bad
things get, we must never give up.  We must never give in.  We must never
lose faith.  Because in God's own time, God will prevail.  God will triumph
over evil and will reward the faithful."

	Apocalyptic messages are typically couched in terms that would not
be understood if the texts fell into the wrong hands, protecting those who
might possess such subversion.

Shalom,
Richard

    Actually Richard, you hit on a very important point.  Even in the
    account of the fall in the garden, God cursed Adam and Eve...and Satan. 
    Yet beneath the curse was a promise of hope...not really for Adam and
    Eve but for their descendents.  
    
    Same with the Babylonian exile.  All the prophets stated that the
    exile would be horrendous but that Israel would eventually be restored.
    
    -Jack

jack, i have a very hard time parsing your (and tony's and alex') writing on
this subject. my difficulty stems from not being able to see why you attribute
such importance to a single man's vision.
    
.37>  Andreas, if you get anything out of this, understand this point.  God
.37>  uses this time as a wake up call.  The end is near and God is
.37>  attempting a last reaping of the harvest.  There isn't one person going
.37>  through this that he doesn't love deeply, but remember that God is a
.37>  holy God and will not compromise his holiness.  We must meet God on his
.37>  terms, not ours.   
   
all i get so far is that based on a text, which was intended to be symbolic,
you are compelled to construct a case for it being end time now?



andreas.    

re 692.30

Jack,

So we have a totally different interpretations on whom is
the rider of the white horse. Out of interest, in seeing
how common the thought of the rider being the anti-christ is,
I decided to look into my old KJV reference bible (Brown's
self-interpreting family bible). It gave Psalms 43:3-5, 
110:2,3, Hebrews 2:9, Zechariah 6:11, Romans 15:19 and
2 Corinthians 2:14 as cross reference as to the one riding
the white horse. The reverend's comments in the footnote
was as follows "While the white horse and his rider, (verse
2) may have some respect to Roman victories gained by Vespian,
about 70 A.D., and Trajan 110 A.D., under provential direction
of Christ, they chiefly represent Christ, as by the gospel,
and the influences of the Holy Ghost attending it, conquering
nations to the obedience to the faith, A.D. 33 - 66 and 
afterwards."

Though I don't agree totally with his interpretation, his
comment on the conquest of the rider is interesting. 1 john 5:19
tells us that the whole world is lying in the power of the
wicked one. Psalm 110:1,2 tells us that God's anointed one when
enthroned will go subduing amongst the midst of his enemies.
The illustration of the "sheep and goats" shows that a separating
would take place when Jesus sits on his throne. A major sign of
the last days is the preaching of the good news through this
many are won over to Jesus' side.

This rider on the white horse, went "forth conquering and to complete
his conquest". If this is Satan, and one in turn can reason that
Jesus and his followers are his enemies, then one would have to assume
that he vanquishes his enemies.

Alternatively, Psalms 45:3-5 describes perfectly the rider on the
horse. Alex has already reasoned that the horse signifies warefare
and being white righteousness, so the rider fights righteous warfare.
"Gird your sword upon [your] thigh, O mighty one, [with] your
splendor go on to sucess; ride the cause of truth and humilty [and]
righteousness, And your right hand will instruct you in fear inspiring 
things. Your arrows are sharp - under you people keep falling - in 
the heart of the enemies of the king." NWT

Paul ascribes this prophecy to Jesus in Hebrews 1:1,2,8,9 .

must go

Phil.

    Yes...amazingly enough in Hebrews it says:
    
    "But of the son it says, Thy Throne O God is forever and ever...a
    scepter of Righteousness."
    
    Your points are well taken on the White horse in Revelation 5 however. 
    I find it interesting though that the two white horses are
    distinguishable...and that the first one is followed by war, famine and
    death while the second white horse is followed by righteousness and
    judgement.  What are your thoughts on the prophesy of Daniel where
    AntiChrist makes a covenant with Israel?
    
    Andreas, I wouldn't make a claim that the end times will happen in my
    lifetime.  We can only watch for the signs.  Based on what I've seen, I
    have good reason to think it possible the end times will happen
    soon...but the end times will not happen until the great apostacy, or
    falling away, and the son of perdition takes his place as the false
    messiah.  These words are spoken in 2nd Thessolonians.  
    
    -Jack

Jack,

;    Yes...amazingly enough in Hebrews it says:
    
;    "But of the son it says, Thy Throne O God is forever and ever...a
;    scepter of Righteousness."

Not sure of the point you are trying to make here, also which translation
are you using?. 

;    I find it interesting though that the two white horses are
;    distinguishable...and that the first one is followed by war, famine and
;    death while the second white horse is followed by righteousness and
;    judgement.

The reason being is that these are two different events, but the rider 
on the white horse remains the same. Revelation 6:2 is at the beginning 
of the "Lord's day" and sometime later in Revelation 19:11-16 at Armageddon. 
Revelation 12 helps us in this regard, first of all when the rider in heaven
goes into action he wars against Satan and his demons in heaven and expells 
them to the vicinity of the earth. This in turn means woe for the earth and
those who dwell it, which is in harmony with the next 3 riders who begin to
ride. The one who stops the 3 riders is the first rider as we see pictured 
in Revelation 19, whom at Armageddon brings and end to war, famine. 
Eventually even death is vanquished (compare Revelation 21:3,4). 

Take Psalms 46:9 NWT for example, God through his anointed one "He is making
wars to cease to the extremity of the earth. The bow he breaks apart and does
cut the spear in pieces; The wagon he burns in the fire."

Therefore, it would be inappropriate for the 3 riders to be seen after
Armageddon.

;What are your thoughts on the prophesy of Daniel where
;    AntiChrist makes a covenant with Israel?

Could you point me to the specific prophesy in Daniel that you mention
here. I won't be in this afternoon (or your morning) but will take
a look tomorrow.

Phil.

    RE: <<< Note 1061.30 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "You-Had-Forty-Years!!!" >>>
    
    
 >>I always believed the white horse to be Satan.
    
    Jack,
    
    After I came to know that the white hore and the one sitting 
    upon it was and is a point of discussion, I too started to search
    what the authorities had to say about it.
    
    Just as an addendum to Phil's reply in RE: .41 I found ;
    
    a> In "Robertson word pictures of the New Testament" 
       this authoritity of 19th century  mention quite a few 
       other authorities believing that the horsemen sitting 
       upon the white horse is Jesus Christ.
    
    b> The same is said by another authority in "Peoples New Testament"
       that the one sitting upon the white horse is indeed Jesus Christ.
    
    
    Here's an addendum to Phil's reply RE: .41
    
    
      rgds, 
      Alex
    

    1024.9

    Yes, I realize and have said as much myself in prior entries.
    
    Richard
    

Revelation 7:5-8 lists the twelve tribes of Israel, each bearing
the name of one of the twelve sons of Jacob:
Judah, Ruben, Gad, Asher, Nephtali, Mannaseh, Simeon, Levi, Issachar,
Zebulon, Joseph, and Benjamin.

The problem is Mannaseh is a grandson of Jacob.  Mannaseh has been
substituted for Dan.

What's up with that?

Richard

    Some things from my margin notes:
    
    Judah is mentioned first, which doesn't happen in the OT (excepting
    Numbers 2:3+).  Sort of a Messianic "heads up!"  Adding to this is the
    rather unimportant place of 8th for the priests (Levites).  Christ is
    the High Priest.
    
    Not only is Dan omitted, but also Ephraim.  Joseph is always mentioned
    in OT lists by including Joseph and excluding his 2 sons (Ephraim and
    Manasseh - Genesis 49) or vice versa (Ezekiel 48).  Also, the tribe of
    Levi wasn't omitted until they gained more prominence and was replaced
    by Joseph's 2 sons.
    
    From what I gather the jury is still out as to why.  Some point to Dan
    and Ephraim being associated with idolatry (Judges 18:18-19, 1 Kings
    12:29-30, Hosea 4:17).  Also there seems to be a pre-Christian Jewish
    tradition that the Antichrist would come out of Dan.
    
    If you total them up, there are 20 different tribal lists in the OT
    with 10-13 tribes represented, but they are always grouped by 12.  It
    appears to be a corporate identity of God's elect.
    
    Mike

    .47
    
    I can understand why Ephraim is missing.  Ephraim being Mannaseh's
    brother, was also a grandson of Jacob, not one of his sons.
    
    Richard
    

    Kind of an ironic coincidence...  We've been expounding our way through
    Revelation on Sunday nights since Spring (actually the 2nd time in 3
    years).  We did chapter 7 last night.
    
    What I entered was pretty much confirmed.  An interesting tidbit that I
    didn't know before is that Ephraim acted as priests for Dan while in
    idolatry.  Also in Ezekiel 48, God shows His grace by restoring them to
    first-mention during the Kingdom Age.
    
    Finally, being a literalist, I believe even the punctuation is there
    for a reason.  If you translate the names of the tribes in Revelation 7
    you will also obtain an extremely interesting message to those 12
    tribes.  BTW - this also works in Adam's lineage in Genesis 5
    (translating the names for a message).
    
    I'll wait and post the answers on Thursday morning in case any of you
    want to try figuring it out.
    
    Mike

The 5th chapter of Genesis holds an amazing tale for those that think
geneaologies are boring.  The same holds that doubt the Bible is God's word, for
no man could've planned this.

Read the chapter, and starting with Adam, underline the name of every son that
was born (I've done it here for you).  When finished, go back and translate
the meaning of each name and string them together.  You should be amazed by
what your result is.  I certainly was!

5:1  This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created
 man, in the likeness of God made he him;
5:2  Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name
 Adam, in the day when they were created.
5:3  And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own
         ----
 likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
                                                    ----
5:4  And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years:
 and he begat sons and daughters:
5:5  And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and
 he died.
5:6  And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:
                                                         ----
5:7  And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and
 begat sons and daughters:
5:8  And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.
5:9  And Enos lived ninety years, and begat Cainan:
                                            ------
5:10  And Enos lived after he begat Cainan eight hundred and fifteen years, and
 begat sons and daughters:
5:11  And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died.
5:12  And Cainan lived seventy years and begat Mahalaleel:
                                               ----------
5:13  And Cainan lived after he begat Mahalaleel eight hundred and forty years,
 and begat sons and daughters:
5:14  And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died.
5:15  And Mahalaleel lived sixty and five years, and begat Jared:
                                                           -----
5:16  And Mahalaleel lived after he begat Jared eight hundred and thirty years,
 and begat sons and daughters:
5:17  And all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred ninety and five years:
 and he died.
5:18  And Jared lived an hundred sixty and two years, and he begat Enoch:
                                                                   -----
5:19  And Jared lived after he begat Enoch eight hundred years, and begat sons
 and daughters:
5:20  And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he
 died.
5:21  And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:
                                                      ----------
5:22  And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years,
 and begat sons and daughters:
5:23  And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
5:24  And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
5:25  And Methuselah lived an hundred eighty and seven years, and begat Lamech.
                                                                        ------
5:26  And Methuselah lived after he begat Lamech seven hundred eighty and two
 years, and begat sons and daughters:
5:27  And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years:
 and he died.
5:28  And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
5:29  And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us
                             ----
 concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the
 LORD hath cursed.
5:30  And Lamech lived after he begat Noah five hundred ninety and five years,
 and begat sons and daughters:
5:31  And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years:
 and he died.
5:32  And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and
 Japheth.


Okay, after reading Genesis 5:1-32, you should have come up with this list of
names and their translations:

Name           Translation
----           -----------
Adam           Man
Seth           Appointed
Enosh          Mortal
Kenan          Sorrowing
Mahalalel      Blessed God
Jared          Shall Descend
Enoch          Dedicated or Teaching
Methuselah     His Death Shall Bring
Lamech         Power or Disparing
Noah           Rest

So what do we get?  We get the Gospel message encoded in the names of Adam's 9
descendants.   Lowercase text and punctuation added for legibility.

"MAN was APPOINTED, became MORTAL, he hid and was SORROWING.  the BLESSED GOD
SHALL DESCEND, DEDICATED to save and TEACH.  HIS DEATH SHALL BRING POWER to the
DISPARING and REST."

There is no way man wrote the Bible and was clever enough to encode that into
Adam's lineage!

    The message from the tribes in Revelation 7 will have to wait until
    tomorrow.  It does make it clear why the Holy Spirit listed the tribal
    names that He did (because of the message and context of the chapter).
    
    Mike

The 12 Tribes of Israel in Revelation 7 also contain an interesting acrostic,
similar to Adam's lineage in Genesis 5.  In both cases you translated the
names for the encoded message.  See what God has for the 144,000.

Judah     - "Praise" or "He Shall Be Praised"
Reuben    - "You Look at a Son"
Gad       - "Fortune"
Asher     - "Happy"
Naphtali  - "My Wrestling"
Manasseh  - "Causing to Forget"
Simeon    - "Listening"
Levi      - "Joined" or "Attached"
Issachar  - "He Will Bring Reward"
Zebulun   - "Dwelling"
Joseph    - "May God Add to"
Benjamin  - "[The] Son of the Right Hand"

"PRAISE!  YOU LOOK AT A SON!  FORTUNE and HAPPiness, MY WRESTLING [He will
CAUSE] TO FORGET.  LISTENING and JOINED, HE WILL BRING REWARD, - DWELLING.  MAY
GOD ADD TO [THE] SON OF THE RIGHT HAND!"