| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 1050.1 | | POWDML::FLANAGAN | I feel therefore I am | Mon Jan 30 1995 13:27 | 7 |
| Must have been two separate going aways. She went away across the
dessert when he was a Baby, they came back briefly and then they went
away again.
Patricia
|
| 1050.2 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Unquenchable fire | Mon Jan 30 1995 15:19 | 5 |
| .1 Interesting theory, but it doesn't read that way.
Shalom,
Richard
|
| 1050.3 | | CSC32::P_SO | Get those shoes off your head! | Mon Jan 30 1995 15:26 | 14 |
| Richard,
I could be wrong but I don't see the passage saying that
she carried the child. I read that she carried the water.
ie - he gave her the water, put it on her shoulder, and the
child....
translated, he gave her the water, put it on her shoulder, and
he gave her the child.
Just my take on it.
Pam
|
| 1050.4 | | POWDML::FLANAGAN | I feel therefore I am | Mon Jan 30 1995 15:27 | 6 |
| Then it must be a different Ishmael. After all that is a common name.
It may be a different Hagar too!
Patricia
|
| 1050.5 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Unquenchable fire | Mon Jan 30 1995 17:25 | 12 |
| .3
Pam,
Granted, the KJV seems to read that way. It becomes clearer in
other translations, however. I only used it because it was easy
to extract from BIBLESERVER, which understandably uses the version
in public domain.
Shalom,
Richard
|
| 1050.6 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Unquenchable fire | Mon Jan 30 1995 17:25 | 5 |
| .4 Why not! %-}
Shalom,
Richard
|
| 1050.7 | | GRIM::MESSENGER | Bob Messenger | Mon Jan 30 1995 18:02 | 33 |
| Re: .3 Pam
In the Revised Standard Version the verse reads:
So Abraham rose early in the morning, and took bread and a skin of
water, and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, along
with the child, and sent her away.
Genesis 21:14a (RSV)
Later verses also point to Ishmael being much younger than 13+ (13 when he
was circumcised, plus time for Isaac to be conceived, born and weaned).
When the water in the skin was gone, she cast the child under one
of the bushes. Then she went, and sat down over against him a
good way off, about the distance of a bowshot; for she said, "Let
me not look upon the death of the child." And as she sat over
against him, the child lifted up his voice and wept.
Genesis 21:15-16
This sounds like Ishmael was just a baby. Would you cast a teenager under
a bush? I suppose you could say that Ishmael was weakened by thirst, but
then Hagar would have been weakened too and it wouldn't be easy for her to
pick him up and "cast" him under a bush. "Dragged" might be a more
descriptive word.
What's the reason for the contradiction between chapters 17 and 21 of
Genesis? According to "Who Wrote the Bible?" by Richard Friedman, God's
covenant with Abraham, which says that Ishmael was 13 years old, is part
of the Priestly biblical source ("P") while the story of Hagar and Ishmael
being forced out into the desert is part of the Elohist source ("E"). The
two stories came from different traditions, so they didn't line up exactly.
-- Bob
|
| 1050.8 | Minimally edited merging of traditions | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Unquenchable fire | Mon Jan 30 1995 18:44 | 15 |
| Note 1050.7
>What's the reason for the contradiction between chapters 17 and 21 of
>Genesis? According to "Who Wrote the Bible?" by Richard Friedman, God's
>covenant with Abraham, which says that Ishmael was 13 years old, is part
>of the Priestly biblical source ("P") while the story of Hagar and Ishmael
>being forced out into the desert is part of the Elohist source ("E"). The
>two stories came from different traditions, so they didn't line up exactly.
This is what I suspected, but hadn't verified before posing the question here.
Thanks for investigating this, Bob.
Shalom,
Richard
|