Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    For a regenerated believer, there is a forth element.
    
    body
    soul 
    spirit
    Holy Spirit 
    
    Once we receive, we have invited Christ into our lives.  The Holy
    Spirit then dwells within us.  "Know ye not that your body is the
    temple of the Holy Spirit?"  One of Pauls letters.
    
    -Jack

    .0
    
    I believe there's only one kind of human being.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

re .2

 That's what the Bible teaches for we are all offspring originating
 from Adam & Eve.


 Phil.

    We are all offspring of Adam and born into the same condition.  
    
    That's why we need to be reborn according to Jesus words to Nicodemus!
    
    -Jack

.1>    For a regenerated believer, there is a forth element.
.1>    
.1>    body
.1>    soul 
.1>    spirit
.1>    Holy Spirit 

and if the believer loses faith he reverts back to three?


andreas.

    Good question and I have struggled with this at times.
    
    I believe once saved always saved.  The prodigal son is a good example
    of this.  Once regenerated, you become in essence the property of God.
    
    -Jack

    	Had the prodigal son never returned, I think the story would have
    	ended differently.
    
    	I believe one can fall away from salvation.  He is always welcome
    	to return.
    
    	Remember the father in the prodigal son story said "My son was
    	dead and has come back."
    
    	When we become prodigal sons we are spiritually dead.

.6> Once regenerated, you become in essence the property of God.

why would a son ever become property of his father? 
this doesn't make sense.


andreas.

    Not property as in chattel...but as a child.
    
    
    Paul demonstrates this in 1st Corinthians where he talks about the
    submissiveness of a husband to his wife and a wife to her husband.
    The verse in Ephesians I cited regarding the sealing of the Holy Spirit
    holds great significance.  Back in those times, a seal had great 
    meaning as it signified the mark of ownership by the Roman government.
    This is why Jesus tomb had the Roman seal put upon it...and that's why
    the Roman guards at the tomb would have faced a horrible execution had
    they fallen asleep on guard duty at the grave site.  This is how
    important a seal was.  As we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, we are
    given a mark of righteousness.  This is in essence what I meant by
    ownership.
    
    -Jack

    >>I believe one can fall away from salvation.  He is always
    >>welcome to return.
    
    So Joe, you believe the Holy Spirit can leave us?  That we are not
    sealed unto the day of redemption?  This would imply that the finished
    work of the cross was not sufficient enough to reddem a person...even
    from a season of a lack of faith.  
    
   >> Remember the father in the prodigal son story said "My son was
   >> dead and has come back."
    
    True, then again, faith without works is dead...yet we are only
    justified by the saving grace of Christ dying on the cross by faith.
    Keep in mind that although the son was dead in his fathers eyes, he was
    never disowned by the father.  Another parelle in scripture is the
    Church of Sardis in Revelation 3.  God mentions they think they are
    alive but they are dead.  God never disowns them...rather, he exhorts
    them to cling to what they have been taught in the past...and repent!
    
    -Jack
    When we become prodigal sons we are spiritually dead.

.9>  Not property as in chattel...but as a child.

sorry jack, a child is in no way at no time a property. it is 
a responsibility but not a property. there must be a fundamental
misconception here.


andreas.

>    So Joe, you believe the Holy Spirit can leave us?  
    
    	No.  I don't believe that God ever leaves us.
    
    	I believe that people leave God.

    Joe:
    
    This is an important discussion.  Consider the following.  According to
    Romans 7, our sin nature is overcome by the Spirit, but it never goes
    away.  In the eyes of God, we are in a perpetual state of sin.  We are
    only reconciled by the atonement of the cross.  Therefore, although we
    are separated through constant sin, the Holy Spirit, which never leaves
    us, is our righteousness before God.  
    
    I think the real question is...was one saved in the first place?
    
    -Jack

    From what I understand, Christians as a group cannot make up their mind
    on the answer.  There are three contradictory answers all with Biblical
    Support.
    
    1.  God has preselected a small number of individuals and offered them
    new life in Christ.  Because they have been preselected they can accept
    the light that is Jesus Christ.
    
    2. God has not preselected any.  He offers everyone his free gift of
    grace.  Those who accept have a new life in Christ, Those who reject
    are children of Darkness.
    
    3.  God has selected all.  all are  of the same spirit and are children
    of God.
    
    I believe all humans are created in the image of Goddess/God and are thus
    equally children of Goddess/God.  I choose alternative three.
    
    
    
    
                                Patricia

    Patricia,
    
    If I may make a slight modification to your response, there are at
    least four different views.  Calvinist, Wesleyan, Mediating and
    Universalist.  You defined the essence of Wesleyan soteriology pretty
    well and I'm sure not going to argue with you on the Universalist
    perspective.  However, the true five-point (TULIP) Calvinist believes
    that a number (quantity unknown) of individuals have been preselected
    or preordained to receive salvation.  Because they have been
    preordained they WILL accept the light that is Jesus Christ and despite
    all appearances to the contrary they will be saved.  The Mediating view
    is a blend of Wesleyan and Calvinism.
    
    Kent
    

What gets me is how some Christians seems to imply they have a leg up
on everybody who is not a Christian (like them).

I guess it is to be expected.  There isn't a religion in the world
wherein at least some of the devotees don't boast of it as the superior
one or the only true religion.

Shalom,
Richard

    	re .13
    
    	I think it is a matter of semantics, Jack.  We're probably 
    	saying the same thing, but from different angles.

      Jack,
    
        Did God reject the unbelievers?
    
        Are the unbelievers ultimately destroyed because of God's
        absence or because of His presence?  Will He have ever left
        them?
    
        God doesn't change.
    
                                                   Tony

    Remember Richard...One begger showing anbother begger where the bread
    is.  The Great Commission is to be implemented with the utmost
    humility!!
    
    Peace,
    
    -Jack

>    One begger showing anbother begger where the bread
>    is.

Is this a biblical allusion?  If so, it's an unfamiliar one to me.

Shalom,
Richard

 >>   Is this a biblical allusion?  If so, it's an unfamiliar one to me.
    
    In a sense it is.  One who approaces the throne of grace with a
    contrite heart.  Remember the pharisee in the synagogue with the tax
    collector?  The pharisee was self righteous and the tax collector
    couldn't even look up...all he could say was, "Lord forgive me a
    sinner"  
    
    When one looks at our nature compared to the nature of God, we are
    fearfully and wonderfully made; however, we are also poor, blind and
    wretched.  In order to stand before a Holy God, we must acquire the
    righteousness of Christ!  This qualifies me as a begger anyway.
    
    Now that I am an adopted child of God, yes I can approach the throne of
    grace confidently...yet I must never forget where I came from lest I
    become conceited and fall into sin.  
    
    Richard, when I share the good news with somebody, am I not sharing
    with one who is in the same exact condition I am in?  The condition we
    inherited from Adam?
    
    -Jack

.21

Jack,

>   This qualifies me as a begger anyway.

My guess is that you've never really experienced being a beggar.
    
>   Richard, when I share the good news with somebody, am I not sharing
>   with one who is in the same exact condition I am in?  The condition we
>   inherited from Adam?

It gets me how some so readily accept sin inherited supposedly all the
way back from the time of Adam, yet refuse to accept any meaningful
responsibility for the sins inherited over the last few hundred years
from our forefathers: slavery, racial disparity, and the repression of
women.

Shalom,
Richard

>>My guess is that you've never really experienced being a beggar.
      
Begger...no.  But there have been times in my life when I lived quite sparsely.
I recall one time in college when I had mixed some old parmisian cheese that
you sprinkle on spaghetti with some viva Italian dressing.  That was my
dinner with absolutely no idea where breakfast was coming from.  God 
provided snow and I got a few shoveling jobs the next day...enough to buy
some food for a three day period.  

Mercy must be obtained in order for grace to abound.  This is why we must 
approach the throne of grace with a contrite heart.  "I desire mercy not
sacrifice."  The term begger is a generic term.  It is only to illustrate our
need before the savior.
  
>>It gets me how some so readily accept sin inherited supposedly all the
>>way back from the time of Adam, yet refuse to accept any meaningful
>>responsibility for the sins inherited over the last few hundred years
>>from our forefathers: slavery, racial disparity, and the repression of
>>women.

Richard, that gets to me too.  That's why I am a firm believer in equality 
for **ALL** individuals in society.  Parity in the workplace is a worthy
goal to strive for.  Adament opposition to the status quo does not imply 
resistence to change.  Like I said, equality FOR ALL individuals in society,
applying the same standards and striving to meet them.  As I've stated over
and over, handouts (as well intentioned as they are), promote mediocrity 
and foster dependence in society.  We are doing our fellow Americans absolutely
no favors.

I fully accept the sins of my forefathers in all these areas.  But regardless
of how evil society is today or how evil society was 200 years ago, it is
mutually exclusive from our condition handed down through Adam.  If anything
the behavior of my forefathers and myself confirm what I have said about our
sin condition and the need for the savior!
  
Peace,

-Jack

Note 1046.23

>The term begger is a generic term.  It is only to illustrate our
>need before the savior.

To a beggar, the term beggar is hardly a generic term.

As for the rest, well, please don't misconstrue my silence.

Shalom,
Richard

    Well...how about one thirsty person showing another thirsty person
    where the oasis is!?
    
    -Jack

which oasis? what kind of thirst? 

;-)

    Wellll...not the oasis run by Spuds McKenzie!!! :-)
    

	That's good, cuz spuds died.....