Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    I don't think so.  Weren't the descendents of Ishmael counted as
    blessed when God told him I will bless and multiply thee...I will make
    thee a great and mighty nation...
    
    The Arab world does not recognize Jesus as the messiah.
    
    -Jack

    Interesting ponderable, Eric.  I'd like to chew on it a while before
    responding.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

 Richard,

 Another translation renders "blessed", as in Jesus' opening
 words on the Sermon on the mount, as "happy". That is happy
 in regard to ones long term happiness rather than short term.

 For example Matthew 5:3 NWT "Happy are those conscious of their
 spiritual need, since the kingdom of heavens belongs to them."

 Too many people today are only interested in their short term
 happiness and therefore have no time for God or to fill their 
 spiritual need. As Timothy 3:4b NWT puts it "lovers of pleasures
 rather than lovers of God,"

 Ofcourse, those that put their trust in Jehovah and survive
 the approaching event of Armageddon will be deemed as blessed
 or happy. For they will have made a shrewd choice in choosing
 their God has their stronghold.

 Phil.
 

    Re:
    <<< Note 1038.3 by RDGENG::YERKESS "bring me sunshine in yoursmile" >>>
                         -< Blessed as in long term happiness >-
    
    
Nice expression Phil,
    
    
    It is just like Phil said,
    
    Time is running out, the spiritual Ark of Noach is going to be closed.
    For a long term happiness, it is time to choose now for the side
    of Jehovah God.
    
    Rgds,
    Alex
    
    

 >>   it is time to choose now for the side of Jehovah God.
    
    To Mods...I believe this question is appropriate for this string
    because it refers to salvation.
    
    Alex, you bring up an important and sobering point.  Could you please 
    thin of a three to five sentence explanation on how to choose the side
    of Jehovah God.
    
    Thanks,
    
    -Jack

   re  <<< Note 1038.5 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I lied; I hate the fat dinosaur" >>>
    
    
   > Alex, you bring up an important and sobering point.  Could you please
   > thin of a three to five sentence explanation on how to choose the
   > side of Jehovah God.
    
    Jack,
    Although a bit difficult, I will give a try. And try to backup
    all with Scripture verses (NWT).
    
    > To Mods...I believe this question is appropriate for this string
    > because it refers to salvation.
    
    To be saved, salvation etc, all have to do with true happiness.
    
    1> Jehovah God is a God who is Almighty in all things except
       one.
       There is one thing He can't do!!!!!!
       ====================================
        What is that the True Living God can't do????
    
      That is that he cannot lie.
      Where in Scripture we can fid that?
      Please, refer to Titus Chapter 1, And pay attention to verse 2.
    
    2> Like 1038.3 already mention, Armageddon, that's where the final
        battle will take place. It is a righteous war.It is war between
        Michael ( Jehovah is my Saviour) the seed and Jehovah's enemies.
     
    3> Psalm Chapter 37 gives us a better understanding who they are, the
       one that Jehovah God consider rigtheous to inherit the Paradise
       here on earth. Especially Psalmm 37, the verses 11 and 29 mentions
       them.  
       
     4>Like Jehovah God can't lie, all his promisses will become reality
       for those who love the truth. Revelation Chapter 7 gives you more
       information who they a, The righteuos and humble ones.
       Chapter 7 vers 9 says that they are quantity that large that they
       can't be count. They are standing before the Throne of Jehovah God.
       
     5> And we do not must forget the theme, they are in a kind of
        happiness that we can not imagine at this very moment.
        Revelation Chapter 21:1-5 is the best acknowlegded of Psalm 37.
    
    Rgds,
    Alex.  
     
     
    

   re  <<< Note 1038.5 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I lied; I hate the fat dinosaur">>>
    
    
    
    Jack,
    
    >Alex, you bring up an important and sobering point.  Could you please
    > thin of a three to five sentence explanation on how to choose the
    > side of Jehovah God.
    
     Jack,
    
    Here are some sentences how to choose:
    
    1> Extracted from Exodus and repeated by Jesus in Matthew :
       You have to love Jehovah God with whole your strength, with whole
       your heart, with whole your understanding and with whole your soul
       (Soul=Body)
    2> Matthew 28:18-21, a commandment from Jesus to people of all nations
       who like to live in happinnes now and forever.
    3> Dig and try to understand Daniel 2:44. For this is what is going 
       to happen in the near future.
    4> Search for the right fate, the one explain in Genesis,and showed by
       a lot of people written in there.
    5> And final, there is only one fate or believe accepted by Jehovah God.
                                                             
  Rgds, 
    Alex.

Alex, thank you for taking the time to write these points down.  You have valid
points here I would like to expand on a little!
    
    >Alex, you bring up an important and sobering point.  Could you please
    > think of a three to five sentence explanation on how to choose the
    > side of Jehovah God.
       
>>    1> Extracted from Exodus and repeated by Jesus in Matthew :
>>       You have to love Jehovah God with whole your strength, with whole
>>       your heart, with whole your understanding and with whole your soul
>>       (Soul=Body)
  
Yes, the first and foremost commandment.  Yet this verse encompasses much.
There is much to consider in Loving God unconditionally.  For example, Luke 
states that unless you hate your father, or mother, or son or daughter, yeah 
even your very own life, then you are not worthy of me.  You and I know that
Jesus was using strong language to illustrate the point of our affection for 
Jehovah...yet others may not see it that way.  So, in essence, the verse
above leaves some ambiguity for the question of how to reach eternal life.

>>  2> Matthew 28:18-21, a commandment from Jesus to people of all nations
>>       who like to live in happinnes now and forever.

You are evidently referring to the great commission here.  Alex, this is not
nor ever was a prerequisite to personal salvation.  It was a commandment to 
build up the local church in body and in spiritual maturity.  To spread the
message of salvation is a sign of ones faith...but not a prerequisite to 
receiving grace.
 
>>    3> Dig and try to understand Daniel 2:44. For this is what is going 
>>       to happen in the near future.

Absolutely...and I am of the belief that the feet of the statue is in fact a 
resurrection of the Roman Empire...and I do believe that God's kingdom will
rule over all earthly kingdoms...both past and present.  Too bad
Nebuchadnezzer had to learn this the hard way.  

>>    4> Search for the right fate, the one explain in Genesis,and showed by
>>       a lot of people written in there.

Alex, I assume you meant to say faith instead of fate.  Genesis tells about
Nimrod, the great hunter.  He was the founder of Baal worship.  Then there
is Ishmael and God's covenant with him.  He is the father of the Arab world.
I have to assume you are referring to Abraham, the father of Israel.  I assume
this because the 144,000 in Revelation are from the tribes of Israel.  One might
think you were stating to choose the Jewish faith.  

Yet, I know what you are getting at with this, but it still doesn't answer the
question.  What is it about the watchtower society that seals them with the 
unto the day of redemption?  Am I to assume then that by your explanation, 
the way to inherit eternal life is by joining the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's
Witnesses?
  
Thx.,

-Jack

   re  <<< Note 1038.8 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I lied; I hate the fat dinosaur">>>
    
    
Jack,
    
    
    
   > Yet, I know what you are getting at with this, but it still doesn't
   > answer the
   > question.  What is it about the watchtower society that seals them with
   > the
   > unto the day of redemption?  Am I to assume then that by your
   > explanation,
   > the way to inherit eternal life is by joining the Kingdom Hall of
   > Jehovah's Witnesses?
    
    
    First of all, I have to be carefull in here with writing in strong
    language like you pointed in .8.
    Knowing that you are aquainted with our view (btw you have some
    publication of WB&TS like Living forever on paradise earth) , it is
    indeed needed not only to join the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah Wittnesses
    but also practice Matthew 28:18-21.
    
    You're right it inot fate but Faith .
    
   > Alex, I assume you meant to say faith instead of fate.  Genesis tells
   > about
   > Nimrod, the great hunter.  He was the founder of Baal worship.  Then
   > there
   > is Ishmael and God's covenant with him.  He is the father of the Arab
   > world.
   > I have to assume you are referring to Abraham, the father of Israel.  I
   > assume
   > this because the 144,000 in Revelation are from the tribes of Israel. 
   > One might
   > think you were stating to choose the Jewish faith.
    
    
    No, the Arab tribes like you mention before in another Note,they are
    not the ones, with Ishmael as head of their tribes.
    Also the Hebrews are not affected. They do not know who is Jehovah in
    these days. like in Jesus time they even do not understand the things
    written in the bible, and they do not care for it.
    
    The 144,000 in Revelation are not all from Jewish origin. A lot of them
    came from the Gentiles.
    The 12 tribes  mention are not the same 12 tribes written in Genesis.
    
    
    The feet of the statue is not the Roman Empire but the kingdom in
    these days consisted of many nations.
    (What about the United Nations).
    
    
    Till next time Jack,
    
    Rgds,
    Alex

    Actually Alex, I said it was a resurrected Roman Empire...not the Roman
    Empire themselves.  If the head of the statue was babylon, the chest
    and arms were the medo persians, the thighs represent the Greek Empire,
    then the legs of Iron represent the Roman Empire.  The Feet made of
    Iron and Clay would indicate to me the resurrection of another less
    powerful Roman Empire.  This is actually just an interesting exercise
    in Eschatology...I could be wrong on these things...we'll find out
    eventually.
    
    But what I'm mainly curious about is whatever claim a specific church
    may have to eternal life over another church or group of churches...
    I accept peoples desire to believe it, I just want to know how it is
    justified.  In your case, I'm still at a loss.  In other words, Is it
    the trinitarian belief...what is it?
    
    -Jack
    

    re: <<< Note 1038.10 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I lied; I hate the fatdinosaur" >>>
    
   > Actually Alex, I said it was a resurrected Roman Empire...not the Roman
   > Empire themselves.  If the head of the statue was babylon, thechest
   > and arms were the medo persians, the thighs represent the GreekEmpire,
   > then the legs of Iron represent the Roman Empire.  The Feet made of
   > Iron and Clay would indicate to me the resurrection of another less
   > powerful Roman Empire.  This is actually just an interesting
   > exercisein Eschatology...I could be wrong on these things...we'll find out
   > eventually.
    
 Jack,
    
    It was not my intention to reasoning with you in here about Eschatology.
    I was not yet ready, I will continue were I left in Note 235.85, and
    show how those kingdoms were installed and later on dissapeared.  
    This all is part of the greater fullfilment of Scripture were we 
    arrived in these last days.
    I mention Daniel 2:44 just to show you that all kingdoms from:
    ancient Egypt up to this last kingdom ruling now on earth, have to
    make place for the kingdom of Christ after tribulation.
    About the statue Jack, you did nice research only there were 2 other 
    Empires before Babylon. They were Egypt and Assyria.
    In numerical order : 1> Egypt 2> Assyria 3> Babylon 4> Medo-Persia
                         5> Greece  6> Rome 7>Anglo-American Empire
                         
    This is the complete order deals with th beast in Revelation.
    7 Heads and 10 horns and crowns on the horns.
    
    Iron and clay like you mention is indeed an Empire like the Roman
    Empire but less powerfull and that is No:7 The Anglo-Ameican Empire.
    It not the the resurrection but a heritage. Rome were never coquerred 
    by another Empire but it went slightly over into this kindom we are now
    in. 
    

    re:<<< Note 1038.10 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I lied; I hate the fatdinosaur" >>>
    
    
    Jack,
    Before we can start reasoning about yor second question, I have a
    question for you to answer.
    
    Do you agree with me that there can be only one religion that can be
    acceptable in the eyes of God?
    If yes, what do you think the true religion must posses to be
    acceptable in the eyes of God?

>>    Do you agree with me that there can be only one religion that can be
>>    acceptable in the eyes of God?
>>    If yes, what do you think the true religion must posses to be
>>    acceptable in the eyes of God?

If the words religion and faith are used synonomously, then my answer would be 
yes.  I will base my answer on that since I assume you speak for faith and not
a particular church.  Remember that Paul's churches all had different views 
and problems on different issues.

My tenants on a saving faith boil down to one thing.  I know you and I disagree 
on this since you don't acknowledge the person of the Holy Spirit.  Never-
theless, it is my position that in order to obtain eternal life, one MUST
possess the Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit dwelling in an individual is what is
seen as righteousness in the believer.  Once sealed with the Holy Spirit,
one is made righteous and Holy before God.  This alone is what we must possess
to be acceptable in the eyes of God.  

We know from scripture that we are as an unclean thing and all our works of 
righteousness are as filthy rags to God.  We know that God is no respector of
persons, we know that we are born in sin and iniquity...but we also know that
in Adam all die so in Christ all shall be made alive.  You are aware that 
Christ became a curse for us, having died on a tree.  Ephesians 1:13 says that 
having believed in this, we were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.  
Eternal life is obtained ONLY by faith...this is how we receive the grace that
Jehovah gives to us, that which leads to eternal life.

Rgds.,

-Jack

RE 1038.13

 Jack,

 Jesus explained the meaning of everlasting life when he prayed...
 "And this is eternal life, that, they might know know thee
  the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
 John 17:3 KJV

 As Alex has shown you there are two hopes of salvation for mankind.
 Some have a hope of heavenly resurrection and are sealed with the
 holy spirit or God's active force. The others (John 10:16) have
 a hope of everlasting life on earth (Psalms 37:9-11, Proverbs 2:21-22
 & Matthew 5:5).

 As Alex also pointed out, Armageddon will clear away wickedness and
 Satan will be abyssed. Those in the "first resurrection" will be 
 co-rulers with Jesus ruling in heaven over the earth, which will
 usher in grand blessings for mankind (Revelation 5:9,10,Revelation 
 20:4,5).

 Those that have the hope of everlasting life on earth, will not 
 have eternal life until after successfully going through the final 
 test at the end of the Thousand years (Revelation 20:7-15).

 The works of Satan have to be brought to nothing, hence Jehovah has
 purposed for an educational program to take place during the Christ's
 Thousand year reign. For those who died in ignorance of God and his
 Christ, will have the opportunity to come to know (accurate knowlegde)
 them under the right conditions (compare Acts 24:15) Also at this time 
 Satan will be inactive (abyssed) and therefore will not be able to
 influence such ones until the final test (2 Corinthians 4:4).

 However persons today can't just sit on the fence as it were and claim
 ignorance. For Acts 17:30,31 NWT reads "True, God has has overlooked the
 times of such ignorance, yet now he is telling mankind that they should
 all everywhere repent. Because he has set a day in which he purposes
 to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed,
 and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected
 him from the dead." Jesus is the one appointed to separate the sheep from
 the goats and judgment is made on how persons treat Christs brothers and
 sisters (those sealed or anointed ones) here on earth. This would include 
 how persons respond to their worldwide preaching work. Do they support it?
 or do they try to ban their activities?

 Alex, mentioned participating in the great commission. This is essential for
 those that would want to survive the pending war of Armageddon for by
 participating these ones will bear witness as to whose side they are on. 
 Why essential? well firstly love of God. Jesus commanded his disciples to
 teach others Jesus' commands. By following the commands of Jehovah's 
 anointed one is one not showing love of God ? (1 John 5:3). What if 
 one ignores this command?. Btw we always ask for Jehovah's holy spirit
 to help us in the preaching work and Jesus reasurred "And, look! I am
 with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things."
 Matthew 28:19,20.

 A second reason for participation is blood guilt. Knowledge brings 
 responsibility as seen by the account in Ezekiel 3:17-21. In this
 account we are left with a clear understanding of what God will ask
 of those that fail to warn others of pending destruction.

 Jesus was a model for his disciples, setting the pattern for them 
 to follow his steps closely (1 Peter 2:21). It was prophesied about
 the Messiah "The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me, for
 the reason that Jehovah has anointed me to tell good news to the meek
 ones. He has sent me to bind the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty
 to those taken captive and the wide opening [of the eyes] even to the
 prisoners; to proclaim the year of goodwill on the part of Jehovah
 and the day of vengenance on the part of our God, to comfort the mourning
 ones;" Isaiah 61:1,2 NWT To follow Jesus' steps closely would mean 
 being obedient in participating in the commission. That is telling persons
 persons of the need to repent for God's kingdom draws near (Daniel 2:44,
 Matthew 3:17).

 Phil.
                

.14 RDGENG::YERKESS "bring me sunshine in your smile"
 Title:  Jesus himself told us what everlasting life means John 17:3


What will God do after armegeddon, and what will the world be like?

Steve

 Phil:

>> Jesus explained the meaning of everlasting life when he prayed...
>> "And this is eternal life, that, they might know know thee
>>  the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
>> John 17:3 KJV

Exactly...one can ONLY know God through the Son of God.  One can only know the 
Son through the reconciliation of sin in ones life.  The cross was Gods 
provision for this.  Upon hearing and believing, we are sealed with the Holy 
Spirit of promise.  Eph 1:13  
  
>> As Alex has shown you there are two hopes of salvation for mankind.

Well, no offense Alex but I seemed to have missed this one.  Could have been 
my fault.  Actually, I am familiar with this teaching anyway.

>> As Alex also pointed out, Armageddon will clear away wickedness and
>> Satan will be abyssed. Those in the "first resurrection" will be 
>> co-rulers with Jesus ruling in heaven over the earth, which will
>> usher in grand blessings for mankind (Revelation 5:9,10,Revelation 
>> 20:4,5).

I take this to be the 144,000 saints that are sealed unto the day of the Lord?

>> Those that have the hope of everlasting life on earth, will not 
>> have eternal life until after successfully going through the final 
>> test at the end of the Thousand years (Revelation 20:7-15).

And these must be the multitude of Kingdom Hall members over and above the 
144,000?  Interesting.  I assume that only the Father knows who the 144,000 
are and who the "sheep from another fold" would be.

>> Jesus is the one appointed to separate the sheep from
>> the goats and judgment is made on how persons treat Christs brothers and
>> sisters (those sealed or anointed ones) here on earth. This would include 
>> how persons respond to their worldwide preaching work. Do they support it?
>> or do they try to ban their activities?

>> Alex, mentioned participating in the great commission. This is essential for
>> those that would want to survive the pending war of Armageddon for by
>> participating these ones will bear witness as to whose side they are on. 

    Unfortunately we draw separate
    conclusions...due to our different views of dispensationalism.  My view
    of the book of revelation differs in the sense of when Christ returns,
    the rapture or as Jeremiah calls it, the Blessed Hope, the tribulation,
    the 144,000, Jesus second coming, the Great White Throne judgement,
    Heaven and hell.  I believe at this time the church will no longer be 
    present on earth.  So you are correct about Jesus separating the lambs from
    the goats...and those who take the mark of the beast will most certainly
    try to thwart the efforts of the 144,000.  But the church will have been
    taken at this point.
                
Rgds.,

-Jack

>> As Alex has shown you there are two hopes of salvation for mankind.

;Well, no offense Alex but I seemed to have missed this one.  Could have been 
;my fault.  Actually, I am familiar with this teaching anyway.

Jack,

In different replies Alex mentioned the 144k and those that will enjoy
life on a paradise earth. It was myself who was highlighting that these
are different hopes. So it wasn't your fault at all.

;I take this to be the 144,000 saints that are sealed unto the day of the Lord?

Revelation 7:1-3 discusses this and is a vision of what happens in the Lord's 
day (Revelation 1:10) Once sealed it would seem that Armageddon follows
shortly afterwards.

>> Those that have the hope of everlasting life on earth, will not 
>> have eternal life until after successfully going through the final 
>> test at the end of the Thousand years (Revelation 20:7-15).

;And these must be the multitude of Kingdom Hall members over and above the 
;144,000?  Interesting.  I assume that only the Father knows who the 144,000 
;are and who the "sheep from another fold" would be.

The Father knows who these are and he has given these anointed ones a
token of their calling. Hence they themselves know that they have been
called (compare 2 Corinthians 1:22). We do know that there are roughly 
8,000 alive today of the 144k out of about nearly 5 million 
Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide. One would not know the difference until
we come to celebrate the memorial of Jesus once a year on Nisan 14th. 

To explain John 10:16 from our point of view, the 144k are Jesus' sheep
which would include First Century Christians like the apostles. The 
other sheep are the "great crowd" that go through the great tribulation
here on earth as mentioned in Revelation 7:14.


;    Unfortunately we draw separate
;    conclusions...due to our different views of dispensationalism.  My view
;    of the book of revelation differs in the sense of when Christ returns,
;    the rapture or as Jeremiah calls it, the Blessed Hope, the tribulation,
;    the 144,000, Jesus second coming, the Great White Throne judgement,
;    Heaven and hell.  I believe at this time the church will no longer be 
;    present on earth.  So you are correct about Jesus separating the lambs from
;    the goats...and those who take the mark of the beast will most certainly
;    try to thwart the efforts of the 144,000.  But the church will have been
;    taken at this point.

We appear to agree that the 144k play an important role in separating the sheep
and the goats. But from your point of view I'm puzzled about the identity of Jesus' 
sheep, for you indicate that all Jesus' followers would already have been what you 
call raptured. Do those that go through the great tribulation as mentioned in Revelation
7:14 correspond to those that receive a positive judgment from Jesus eg the Lambs?.


Btw Revelation 14:1-4 mentions that the 144k "were bought from mankind as firstfruits
to God and to the lamb" (verse 4b NWT). Now if these are firstfruits from mankind, I
can't understand how the rapture of the church (Jesus' followers) will take place
beforehand if at all. 


Phil.

re .15

;What will God do after armegeddon, and what will the world be like?

Hi Steve,

God will turn his blessing towards mankind through the heavenly
kingdom anointing Jesus as king of this kingdom (Psalms 2).

This heavenly kingdom will rule for a Thousand years over mankind
here on earth. Having a heavenly kingdom ruling over earth will
certainly have advantages over the rule we experience today. For
instamce, we can't get away from the fact that our rulers are
imperfect and are open to human failings such as bribery and corruption. 
Some good rulers are also open to assination attempts. The heavenly
kingdom will be totally out of reach of any influences that might 
undermine it.

Jesus as Messiah plays a very important role during this time, and
the miracles that he performed during his earthly ministry are
a foretaste of the things to come but this will be on a far grander
scale. Also the Messianic prophecies point to what will happen 
during this period, perhaps tomorrow I can share some of them with 
you.

Phil.

    re:
     <<< Note 1038.13 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I lied; I hate the fat dinosaur" >>>
    
    
    
Jack,
    
    I'm not offended like you noted in .16. There was no reason to be
    offended. Sometimes I'm delayed, maybe that's the reason 
    you thought that I was offended, but I will always give a response. 
    
    Jack, there are  a lot of different chuches in this world.
    Not to offend or attack, but if there is one God they has to be only
    one church and one faith. But what we see is not only different
    chuches and faith but they are all in some sort of war with eachother.
    
    What's wrong?
    
    
    
     

re.15

;What will God do after armegeddon, and what will the world be like?

Steve,

Here are some promises of what it will be like...

                               Psalms 46:9 NWT
    He is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth.
The bow he breaks apart and does cut the spear in pieces;
The wagons he burns in the fire.

    He that is God will bring an end to war, destroying the weapons at
Armageddon. As Psalms 37:9-11 puts it persons "will find exquisite delight
in the abundance of peace", for those that cause wars will be cut off.
Compare also Isaiah 2:2-4 were it talks of persons of all nations, in
the last days, learning war no more in readiness for the new world.

Through God's kingdom all the problems mankind faces today will be
resolved. For example, no one will be forced to sell of their food 
produce due to having to pay crippling debt as in some countries....

                              Isaiah 65:17
  17 "For here I am creating new heavens and a new earth; and the
former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up
into the heart.
                              Isaiah 65:21
  21 And they will certainly build houses and have occupancy; and
they will certainly plant vineyards and eat [their] fruitage.
                              Isaiah 65:22
  22 They will not build and someone else have occupancy; they will
not plant and someone else do the eating. For like the days of a tree
will the days of my people be; and the work of their own hands my
chosen ones will use to the full.
                              Isaiah 65:23
  23 They will not toil for nothing, nor will they bring to birth
for disturbance; because they are the offspring made up of the
blessed ones of Jehovah, and their descendants with them.
                              Isaiah 65:24
  24 And it will actually occur that before they call out I myself
shall answer; while they are yet speaking, I myself shall hear.
                              Isaiah 65:25
  25 "The wolf and the lamb themselves will feed as one, and the
lion will eat straw just like the bull; and as for the serpent, his
food will be dust. They will do no harm nor cause any ruin in all
my holy mountain," Jehovah has said.

No famine either...

                               Psalms 72:6
  6 He will descend like the rain upon the mown grass,
Like copious showers that wet the earth.
                               Psalms 72:16
  16 There will come to be plenty of grain on the earth;
On the top of the mountains there will be an overflow.
His fruit will be as in Lebanon, And those who are from the city will blossom 
like the vegetation ofthe earth.

Revelation 11:18 promises that at Armageddon, God will bring to ruin those
ruining the earth. But the earth will not be beyond repair for God
promises...

                               Isaiah 35:1
  1 The wilderness and the waterless region will exult, and the
desert plain will be joyful and blossom as the saffron.
                               Isaiah 35:2
  2 Without fail it will blossom, and it will really be joyful with
joyousness and with glad crying out. The glory of Lebanon itself
must be given to it, the splendor of Carmel and of Sharon. There
will be those who will see the glory of Jehovah, the splendor of
our God.

But what good is peace, abundance of food, shelter, scenic surroundings
if one does not have health to fully enjoy it?. Well God promises...

                               Isaiah 35:5
  5 At that time the eyes of the blind ones will be opened, and the
very ears of the deaf ones will be unstopped.
                               Isaiah 35:6
  6 At that time the lame one will climb up just as a stag does, and
the tongue of the speechless one will cry out in gladness. For in
the wilderness waters will have burst out, and torrents in the desert
plain.

Another promise is thatthe animal kingdom will also live in harmony....

                               Isa11:6
  6 And the wolf will actually reside for a while with the male
lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the
calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together;
and a mere little boy will be leader over them.
                               Isa11:7
  7 And the cow and the bear themselves will feed; together their
young ones will lie down. And even the lion will eat straw just like
the bull.
                               Isa11:8
  8 And the sucking child will certainly play upon the hole of the
cobra; and upon the light aperture of a poisonous snake will a
weaned child actually put his own hand.
                               Isa11:9
  9 They will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy
mountain; because the earth will certainly be filled with the
knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea.


Those that have died, that is those in the memorial tombs will be resurrected
(Compare John 5:28,29). Ofcourse, many have long since been forgotten by 
mankind but Jehovah still remembers them that is their characteristics. During
this time such ones will be resurrected or restored to life, but not back to 
their old ailling bodies but new healhier ones. They will be taught about God 
and his ways (see Isaiah 11:9 cited above). Ofcourse as we see in this system,
living peaceably and honest lives is not everyones cup of tea. Therefore many
may reject God's new world (compare Revelation 20:7-9) however they will
be given the opportunity to choose under the right conditions.

Persons will have the opportunity of never dieing......

     Psalm 37:27-29 "Turn away from what is bad and do what is good, And so
reside to time indefinite. For Jehovah is a lover of justice, And he will
not leave his loyal ones. To time indefinite they will certainly be guarded;
But as for the offspring of the wicked ones, they will indeed be cut off.
The righteous themselves will posess the earth, And they will reside forever
upon it." and verse 34 "Hope in Jehovah and keep his way, And he will exalt
you to take possession of the earth. When the wicked ones are cut off you will
see [it]."

Also compare Revelation 21:3-5.

There are many more promises recorded in the Bible for us to examine. These
promises for us humans, can be hard to picture or believe especially with 
the suffering we see today. But with Jesus as king of God's kingdom and 
miracles that he performed as mentioned in the gospel accounts gives one 
the confidence that he has the power to do these things.

Scriptures cited are from the New World Translation.

Phil.

re Note 1038.20 by RDGENG::YERKESS:

> Another promise is thatthe animal kingdom will also live in harmony....
> 
>                                Isa11:6
>   6 And the wolf will actually reside for a while with the male
> lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the
> calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together;

        That's not just harmony -- sounds like unnatural acts!

        Bob

    Alex:
    
    I used the term "offended" loosely.  I knew you weren't offended.  What
    would be the point in being offended anyway...right?!
    
    You mentioned an interesting point about 1 God = 1 church.  As I had 
    mentioned, you will recall the seven actual churches listed in
    Revelation 2 and 3.  Each church had its problems and only two churches
    were really commended for their work in Christ.  Point being that it
    never says the lampstands were taken away or there names were blotted
    out of the book of life.  They were warned and exhorted to turn back to
    God..."I urge you to buy gold refined by fire...etc."  On this basis,
    I agree with you on the issue of one church being that 1 body of
    believers who follow the doctrinal tenants of salvation.  However, the
    body is made up of believers who may not agree on many issues.  This is
    why the Christian Church is so fragmented.  The Corinthian church was
    certainly fragmented, There were divisions in Galatia, Rome, and the
    Thessolonians made the mistake of determining times and dates of
    Christs return and were admonished by Paul to stop!
    
    So now to the second question, What's the problem...  Well, there
    really isn't a problem between individuals here.  But I will say this,
    I would strongly suggest you at least read up on some of the 
    history of people like Rutherford...and especially the Watchtower
    Society.  See the discrepencies in some of there past predictions and 
    ask yourself, am I following the precept Jesus gave the church in not 
    determining dates and times.  I find that when people base their faith
    system on issues like this, it disturbs me!  
    
    Rgds.,
    
    -Jack

re .21

Bob,

In case you think this refers to unnatural acts, verse 9
makes it clear that it is not. 

Phil.

 re: <<< Note 1038.22 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I lied; I hate the fat dinosaur">>>
    
    
      Jack,
    
    I'am aquainted with the early churches. Their fruits are right there
    for us to learn from. But what is happening with the churches in these
    days, they do not preach God's Kingdom like the 7 churches did . 
    Matth 28:18-21. 
    You said it is not needed in these days, but this is not backed up by
    Scripture. Matth 24:14 clearly shows that this is a must for churches
    which obey Christ teachings in these days. Phil already wrote a lot 
    in this conference about that.And preaching is one of the signs what
    Jesus were telling his 4 disciples on the mountain of olive in Matth
    chapter 24.
    
    Jack, do not get bad feelings or angry about our organisation.
    Just listen to the words of (I thought it was Gamiliel) the high priest
    in Acts , where the sanhedrin was angry upon the discipels(John and
    Peter) of Christ because they turn the old world upside down with their
    preaching.
    My paraphrase: Let them go . If they are from the true living God,
    beware of them because you will be against God. But if they aren't, 
    they will be scattered.
    
    About Rutherfor and Russel, I did read their history. It is not that
    important at the moment what they did. Of course,they were human too so
    they said things and did things that others after them corrected.
    It is welknown within the body of JW's. We read and study a lot.
    There is one thing that WTB&TS kept and still keep very high, and that
    is Scripture teachings. Believe me Jack, there is no  church on this 
    entire planet earth at the moment that can explain Scripture like 
    WTB&TS.I mean the entire Scripture, from front cover to back cover, 
    and backup everything what happened in this last days with Scripture.
    
    Rgds,
    
    Alex
     
    
    
    
    
     

    >>    I'am aquainted with the early churches. Their fruits are right there
    >>for us to learn from. But what is happening with the churches in these
    >>days, they do not preach God's Kingdom like the 7 churches did . 
    >>Matth 28:18-21.

Okay now I'd like to touch on this right here.  You will find that two of 
these churches stayed upright (Smyrna and Philadelphia), while the others
were pretty much apostate.  God did recognize them as His churches, his local
bodies; however, you will find from your reading that the others DID NOT 
produce fruits of righteousness.  This is important to you and the other 
readers here.  You cited Matthew 28 above to support a claim that the seven 
churches did preach God's kingdom.  This is simply not the case and 
furthermore, Matthew 28 is taken out of context here.  In Matthew 28,  Christ
is commissioning the disciples YEARS before the account of the seven churches.
During Matthew 28, John was quite young but while writing Revelation, John
is in his 90's.  But the most important thing here is this.  GOD STILL
RECOGNIZED the seven churches as his...even the apostate ones.

>>    You said it is not needed in these days, but this is not backed up by
>>    Scripture. Matth 24:14 clearly shows that this is a must for churches
>>    which obey Christ teachings in these days. Phil already wrote a lot 
>>    in this conference about that.And preaching is one of the signs what
>>    Jesus were telling his 4 disciples on the mountain of olive in Matth
>>    chapter 24.
  
I was quite careful about the way I worded it.  I didn't say the great 
commission wasn't needed in these days.  I am a very big proponent of 
evangelism and discipleship.  What I said was that witnessing IS NOT a
prerequisite to salvation, in heaven or on earth.  Matthew 28 is a command
to be obeyed by the church.  Fulfilling this commandment doesn't make one a
part of the church, one must become part of the church to fulfill the command..
make sense!?
  
>    Jack, do not get bad feelings or angry about our organisation.
 >   Just listen to the words of (I thought it was Gamiliel) the high priest
 >   in Acts , where the sanhedrin was angry upon the discipels(John and
 >   Peter) of Christ because they turn the old world upside down with their
 >   preaching.
 >   My paraphrase: Let them go . If they are from the true living God,
 >   beware of them because you will be against God. But if they aren't, 
 >   they will be scattered.
  
Alex, I believe what Gamileal said, and it was proven true.  However, you will
also note that the writer of 2nd John and Jude did not echo the words of
Gamileal in their epistles.  They warned of false believers and false 
prophets among the fold.  I believe the Watchtower, like any other self 
proclaimed prophet, must stand the test of a true prophet.  

>>    About Rutherfor and Russel, I did read their history. It is not that
>>    important at the moment what they did. 

On the contrary Alex, it is very important since they are considered the 
forefathers of Watchtower doctrines.

In the year 1918, Rutherford had a mansion built in San Diego and he called it
"The House Of Princes".  This house was lavishly built with beautiful 
architecture and gardens.  Rutherford insisted this was to be built as the
future home of King David and the other worthies...the year King David was to
return was 1925.  Alex, the World Bible Translators were only human too.  Alex,
they sinned against the Lord by the proclamation of the 1914 date (amongst the 
other dates they chose over the years).  I respect your desire to do what's 
right but the bottom line is that you are sitting on a shakey foundation, built 
on speculation, with innacurate prophecies of the past.  Surely you can at least
understand why I feel the way I do.

>>    There is one thing that WTB&TS kept and still keep very high, and that
>>    is Scripture teachings. Believe me Jack, there is no  church on this 
>>    entire planet earth at the moment that can explain Scripture like 
>>    WTB&TS.I mean the entire Scripture, from front cover to back cover, 
>>    and backup everything what happened in this last days with Scripture.
    
Alex, I admire your devotion and please don't read this as patronizing.  I saw
first hand a biblical scholarly debate between Christian apologist Walter 
Martin and a high level Kingdom Hall member.  Martin simply had a far greater
depth of knowledge in Greek, Apologetics and Eschatology.  Maybe he was a 
better debater, who knows.  The point is that no individual or organization 
should be held as the champions of biblical scholastics.  Remember, it is the
Spirit that quickeneth.  The flesh profits nothing!

Rgds.,

-Jack   
    
    
    
    
     

    re: .15
    
    Hi Steve,
    
      For a good exposition on the need for Armageddon, give that
      manuscript I sent you a good read!
    
                                                 Tony

    re: <<< Note 1038.25 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I lied; I hate the fatdinosaur" >>>
    
    
    Jack,
    
    Just read your writing,and all I can say you are indeed zealous (or very
    enthousiastic). I like that,and maybe because of myself like you already 
    noted some notes ago. And also YOUR devotion must not be misunderstood.
    Even though we will never be fully in agreement according to our
    different way of thinking because of our Foundation like mentioned, I
    start to know you (in the good sense of words) better. About the high
    level Kingdom member, a lot of things has changed in our organization 
    (just like Scripture says: The lamp that shines brighter and brighter 
    when the end aproaches)since then. We have learned not to go into heavy
    debate to win a case just like you said. Our goal is to search for
    sheeps that fit into the other cage that Jesus said.This is not the
    cage of those who have heavenly live, but an earthly everlasting
    future. 
    
    About "The House Of Princes", it was also meant for Abraham.
    I know that all, because the organization has no secret for anyone.
    All their mistake are there, open and ready to read by everyone.
    This is the case with all true history. Take e.g: Scripture, all the
    mistakes of Abraham, Jacob (later turned by God into Israel), Isaac
    etc.... , are for everyone to grasp. So WTB&TS will continue in that
    footstep.
    
    
    
   > Alex, I believe what Gamileal said, and it was proven true.  However,
   > you will
   > also note that the writer of 2nd John and Jude did not echo the words
   > of
   > Gamileal in their epistles.  They warned of false believers and false
   > prophets among the fold.  I believe the Watchtower, like any other self
   > proclaimed prophet, must stand the test of a true prophet.
    
   Time will certainly reveal this Jack,
    
    Rgds,
    Alex
    
    
      

Tony,

That is in my queue of books, but I admit I haven't gotten to it yet. 

I am looking forward to it, and again thanks for sending it!

Steve

re .25

;I believe the Watchtower, like any other self 
;proclaimed prophet, must stand the test of a true prophet.

Jack,

You have made this claim before in note 732.1, but they
make no such claim as to being an *inspired prophet*. At 
that time Mark Sornson made a reply to you in 732.5 .
Mark's reply in 732.7 explains quite eloquently how the
WTB&TS view themselves as a prophet in the manner of
Ezekiel. Both replies are worth reading because one
would not want to put forth false accusations.

btw Noah was spoken of by Peter as a "preacher of righteousness"
what he proclaimed turned out to be true (2 Peter 2:5). The only 
trouble was that no one took any note, eventhough his message was 
a correct one. As Alex said we'll just have to wait.

Phil.

    Phil:
    
    Those who died in the flood were the sons of Cain, (Jude, vs.11)  Cain
    went to the east of Eden.  His civilization founded music, culture,
    commerce, art...it was actually what we would term very progressive. 
    The point I am making here is that the sons of Cain had no room in
    their lives for Jehovah.  Peters preaching fell on deaf ears.  They
    were always seeing but never perceiving, just as the pharisees to whom
    Jesus spoke in parables. (Mt 13:14,15,Mark 4:12).  Those of the end
    times will have secular humanism as their messiah (Matt 24:37,38), and
    then sudden destruction.  I would carefully study Matthew 24.  The
    abomination of desolation has not yet arrived in Israel.  
    
    Like John the Baptist, I come as a voice crying in the wilderness. 
    Perhaps you feel the same way.  I proclaim to you Phil Jesus crucified
    and risen...for my sins and for yours.  The sons of cain did no such
    thing; therefore, comparing the likes of myself to the those in the
    days of Noah wouldn't be accurate.
    
    Rgds.,
    
    -Jack

re 1038.30

 Jack,

 Sorry but you have lost me, the descendants of Cain certainly
 lost their lives at the time of the flood. But Adam had other
 children including Seth (compare Genesis 5:3,4) and the 
 descendants from these other children lost their lives also,
 all apart from Noah and his family.

;Those of the end times will have secular humanism as their 
;messiah (Matt 24:37,38);

 But my understanding on these verses is that persons will be
 too engrossed in the every day activities of life and therefore
 have no time for God and take no note. We all have to eat and 
 drink, but it is a matter of priorities as Jesus taught seek 
 first the kingdom and these other things will be added to you 
 (that is our material needs, Matthew 6:33,34 & Luke 21:34-46).

 Besides, Jesus taught that there would be ones at the end who
 would be zealous and sincerely believe they are following him.
 Matthew 7:21-23 NWT reads "Not everyone sayting to me 'Lord,
 Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one
 doing the will of my Father who is in heaven will. Many will say
 to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name,
 and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works
 in your name? And yet I will confess to them: I never knew YOU
 Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness."

 So Jesus tells us it is vital to do his Father's will and some
 who profess to be Christian won't be. What is God's will? Is it
 that they obey his Son Jesus? If so, should they obey the command
 in Matthew 28:18-20?. For part of the command was to teach others
 to observe Jesus' commands, so having been taught they would then
 in turn teach others to observe Jesus' commands. With this in mind 
 the good news spread quickly throughout the known earth during the 
 First Century, which started with just a few meeting in a room in 
 Pentecost 33 CE. Because persons at sometime paid a clergy to fulfill 
 Jesus' commission instead of having to preach themselves doesn't mean 
 that Jesus no longer holds them individually responsible. For those 
 that are obedient, Jesus reassures "And look! I am I am with you all 
 the days until the conclusion of the system of things.". So Christians 
 should carry on preaching the good news until their master says it is 
 enough and thus show they are putting kingdom interests above their own.

;    Like John the Baptist, I come as a voice crying in the wilderness. 
;    Perhaps you feel the same way.  I proclaim to you Phil Jesus crucified
;    and risen...for my sins and for yours.  The sons of cain did no such
;    thing; therefore, comparing the likes of myself to the those in the
;    days of Noah wouldn't be accurate.

As cited above Jesus makes it plain that their will be some who will
profess to being Jesus' followers but Jesus will disown them (also
compare 2 Timothy 3:1,5). With this in mind, I hope that Jesus finds
us both doing his Father's will. 

 Phil.