Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

i was raised a christian and what eventually drove me ABSOLUTELY
*NUTS* about christianity was knowing 'right' from 'wrong'. 

i mean, that issue got into every unthinkable detail.

was what i was doing right? 
was what i was going to do right? 
was it right to think about what i was going to do?

geeesh! the problem came to a peak in the teenage years when everybody 
started dating!

i gave up eventually trying to figure out what was 'right' or 'wrong' 
and relied on others to tell me instead. i'd soon enough know the 
difference, whenever the subject was raised, with a lot more time now 
left to investigate life's more approachable secrets... 


;-)

andreas.

    Gee Andreas,
    
    That is perhaps why a lot of older adolescents conveniently become
    atheistist during the late teen years.  Leaving the church to return
    again after they have settled down, married, and have their first
    child.
    
    THe Bible is surely a difficult book to clarify one's sexual morality!

	Being raised Catholic, and before most churches did away with them, it
used to drive me nuts when they rang those little bells when breaking bread. 

re .2

yes, in this light it would almost appear as a form of higher justice when, 
in adult age, love between woman and man (or gays/lesbians for that matter)
can be of such intensity that one is moved to find back to ones roots!


andreas.

    Parlimentary procedure at business meetings.  
    
    Like...uhhhh....what did he just say??? (Whispering to the woman next
    to me)
    
    -Jack

Those who fail to take literally Luke 12:32-34

	("Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father is pleased
  to give you the Kingdom.  Sell all your belongings and give the money
  to the poor.  Provide for yourselves purses that don't wear out, and
  save your riches in heaven, where they will never decrease, because
  no thief can get to them, and no moth can destroy them.  For your
  heart will always be where your riches are." [TEV])

yet insist on literalizing the first few chapters of Genesis.

Shalom,
Richard

Christians who believe they'll receive sound advice only from Christians
who already agree with them.

Shalom,
Richard

Christians who are so certain that they have such complete answers that
they feel they must resist contamination through exposure to other
possibilities.

Shalom,
Richard

The never ending attempts to dictate our lifestyles to conform to Christian
beliefs via the passage of laws, the intolerance of other viewpoints, the smug
righteousness that many Christians exude, and the hypocrisy that all of the
above entails.

On the other hand, some of the finest people I know are deeply religious...

Steve

    Ya Steve...but the FF knew something when it worked.  We tried the
    other way in the sixties...remember?

    	Sheesh, it must be Friday the 13th.
    
    	Where did all this sneering come from.  Pretty heavy for a topic
    	intended for humor.

.10 MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I lied; I hate the fat dinosaur"

    Ya Steve...but the FF knew something when it worked.  We tried the
    other way in the sixties...remember?

What (who) is the FF?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.11 CSC32::J_OPPELT "Whatever happened to ADDATA?"
 Title:  Don't forget to wipe your chin...

    	Where did all this sneering come from.  Pretty heavy for a topic
    	intended for humor.

You're right, I had forgotten that it was intended to be humerous, I take it
back. On the other hand, what gives you the impression (if you were referring to
my note) that I was sneering?

Steve

    Steve:
    
    I consider the 1960s the dawn of secular humanism...a dismal exercise
    in futility!!!
    
    -Jack

    By the way, FF (Founding Fathers) were deists mainly.  They did not 
    necessarily believe in or accept Jesus but they did believe in the free 
    exercise of biblical principles.  They held these principles in high
    honor.
    
    -Jack

    I beieve the Humanist Manifesto was written in the 1930's. 

The "Humanist Manifesto" was written in 1933, and was superseded by the
"Humanist Manifesto II", written in 1973.

				-- Bob

    I learn something everyday!
    
    THanks for the information.

By the way, anyone interested in reading these documents should look at
topic 10 in GRIM::HUMANISM.

				Bob

both my sisters have rediscovered their christian faiths in recent years. 
my elder sister has converted to jehova's witnesses, and since she has joined 
there, all of a sudden, i am leading an immoral life-style, so she says! my 
younger sister is with a quiet, sympathetic group. she's a lot less vocal than 
my elder sister but there is no escaping her. she includes me in her prayers, 
and whether i want to or not, she says there's something in the bible about 
folks like me, that i won't be excluded from salvation...!!!!

help! :-)


andreas.

.14 MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I lied; I hate the fat dinosaur"

    By the way, FF (Founding Fathers) were deists mainly.  They did not 
    necessarily believe in or accept Jesus but they did believe in the free 
    exercise of biblical principles.  They held these principles in high
    honor.

True. They also held the freedom in high esteem, including freedom (if one so
chooses) from the government backing specific religions.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.18 GRIM::MESSENGER "Bob Messenger"
 Conference:  GRIM::HUMANISM

Thanks for the pointer, I have never heard of these documents.

Steve

    Without a doubt.  However, they also didn't promote the stomping on
    religion or the freedom from religion either.  They recognized the role
    of faith in the family unit.  I don't see that promoted in our current
    government and when ever it is by some individual, they are ridiculed.  
    
    -Jack

>>    both my sisters have rediscovered their christian faiths in recent years.
>>    my elder sister has converted to jehova's witnesses, and since she has joined
>>    there, all of a sudden, i am leading an immoral life-style, so she says! my
    
    If one uses the bible as a measuring stick as to what constitutes
    moral vs. immoral, then she may be right...then again, by biblical
    standards, King David, Moses, Paul the Apostle, all the biblical
    figures had some measure of sin in their own lives.  I know speaking
    for myself, my life isn't the pinnacle of virtue either.  You would
    have to ask yourself if her observations are wanted...if they are, then
    are they accurate.       
    
>>    younger sister is with a quiet, sympathetic group. she's a lot less vocal 
>>    than my elder sister but there is no escaping her. she includes me in her
>>    prayers, and whether i want to or not, she says there's something in the bible
>>    about folks like me, that i won't be excluded from salvation...!!!!
    
    I find it interesting that she includes you in her prayers, yet at the
    same time she feels that an atheist won't be excluded from salvation. 
    Just an interesting observation that's all.
    
    Andreas, if you are looking for help in the sense that you want an
    accurate answer, then I would again refer you to the tenant of the
    Christian faith...the Word of God.  The Bible teaches that salvation is 
    here and is available to All who desire it.  Unfortunately,
    condemnation is also a choice, just as salvation is.  Jesus stated that
    He Who call upon my name in no way shall I cast out.  So we know that
    from this, as well as many other verses, that whoever shall call upon
    the name of the Lord shall be saved.  In many of these passages, there
    is usually a "however", like..."Whoever shall call upon the name of the
    Lord shall be saved but he who does not believe will never see God but
    the wrath of God shall befall on him."
    
    So, you may want to tell your younger sister that the concept of
    universal salvation doesn't stand in the context of Christian teaching,
    especially since it contradicts the very teachings of Jesus to the
    Pharisees.   
    
    Rgds.,
    
    -Jack

no worries jack, and good morning to you :-)

.19 was an attempt to return the topic to its purpose, ie. at providing 
anectodes about what drives one (lovingly[?]) crazy about christianity...


andreas.

ps. salvation is already being discussed and for christian morality there
    is, presumably, also a topic.

    By all means...I was responding to your HEEELLLPP!!  But now I see what
    you were doing!
    
    -Jack

    What drives me nuts?
    
    
    When "Christians" call my beliefs evil and demonic.