Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

 I resolve that these 2 verses will form the basis of the remainder of my
 life on earth..

Philippians 3:13  Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this 
one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth 
unto those things which are before, 

Philippians 3:14  I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling 
of God in Christ Jesus. 



Jim

.1

> I resolve that these 2 verses will form the basis of the remainder of my
> life on earth..

And may that be a goodly length of time!

Shalom,
Richard

    
    
    I have two... The first is to loose 25lbs. and understand more clearly
    a (what I call) Genesis diet.
    
    The second one is to search for a set of Bible studies pertaining to
    the life and character of Jesus. Without Jesus all Doctrine is dead!!
    
    
    Bruce
     

    	Keep a journal of my dreams.

    .4
    
    For folks who keep a journal of their dreams they now have a pen
    available with a miniature flashlight so that dreams may be recorded
    without turning on a lamp or overhead light.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    	Actually, dreams are best recorded with your eyes closed.  The
    	more senses you activate, the more quickly the details of the
    	dream escape.  
    
    	When I awake I will be writing into a notebook that is kept
    	within arm's distance, opened to a clean page, with the pen in
    	the spiral binding.  I will simply write on that empty page
    	with my eyes still closed, without concern for staying within
    	lines or writing in straight lines or anything like that.  I
    	will gather as many details as I can remeber, using single words
    	or short phrases, until the dream fades.  I may be able to do this
    	several times a night if I awake that often and still have recall
    	of my most recent dream.

    I'm making an early new years resolution to stay out of knee jerk ping
    pong matches.
    
    I'd appreciate a gentle nudge from my friends when i forget.
    
    
                                       Thanks,
    
    
                                       Patricia

I have made small headway with my 1995 New Year's resolutions.

I have contacted by mail all but one of my first cousins.  Only one of the
four has reciprocated.  Still, I'm satisfied that I made the effort to reach
out.

I have read up on the Revelation.  It's still a mystery.  I guess I'll never
make another David Koresh.  The most helpful book I've run across so far is
"Asimov's Guide to the Bible," which examines 2 Esdras, another apocalyptic
work found in the the collection called the Apocrypha, just before taking
up the Revelation.

Shalom,
Richard

    Richard, I have a suggestion for you on Revelation.  To thoroughly
    understand the book, it is best to become very familiar with the Old
    Testament.  Most of the book is written in coded phrases explained
    elsewhere in the Bible.  Of Revelation's ~404 verses, there are 808+
    references to Old Testament phrases.
    
    fwiw,
    Mike

my goals for 1995 were more of a physical, rather than a spiritual nature.

1st and foremost, to stay away from 'smokes'... i had given up smoking 
in autumn last year and was still struggling hard with withdrawal symptoms
at the begining of '95

2nd to go about training more methodically with the following goals 
- to reach a level of fitness to be able to do a triathlon of olympic
  distance (1 mile swim/25 mile bike/6 mile run) once per day,
- to do an olympic triathlon in under 2 hours 30 minutes and a double
  length one in around 5 hours,
- do be digitals (switzerland) fastest runner on the annual half-marathon
  and to run my first full distance marathon in under 2 hours 50 minutes.

stopping smoking has really opened up some untapped potentials at this 
'late' stage (at 35, i compete with the seniors class). i have so far
reached the desired level of fitness, done two preparatory olympic triathlons 
at 2h50' and 2h40' respectively and should be on course for _just_ beating 
the 2h30 limit, hopefully coming weekend(!) with the half-marathon and the 
longer distance events scheduled for mid-september through november...

i am now 11 months off tobacco and still suffer from withdrawal symptoms 
occasionally. though having already come so far through training with 
pushing my limits where i'd never thought possible before, i know that 
staying in training is the biggest support for keeping off smoking!




andreas.

    
    Andreas,
    
    May I encourage you to keep off the smokes, it's well worth it in the
    end. I know how difficult it is to stop, in fact I still have the
    odd withdrawal sympton even after 7 years since my last smoke. I
    started at a very early age of ten and a 19 year habit was very hard 
    to kick. 
    
    In the early stages of giving up, I found avoiding smokie places
    such as pubs helped in kicking the habit. No problem now, but I
    still try to avoid smokie places for I hate the smell of smoke on 
    my clothes.
    
    Don't do as my brother did, who having gone through the agony of not
    having a cigarette for 5 months, started up again. It's so easy
    to get hooked again.
    
    BTW, I'll try and comment sometime next week on the Trinity note.
    
    Phil.

thanks for the encouragement, phil. that's always appreciated!
and congratulation for having already done 7 years.

my smoking history is also around 19 years, though somewhat chequered.
having first smoked secretly, i went 'legit' on my 18th birthday with 
asking my parents for a pipe as a present. during the late teens and 
the early twenties i used to smoke only in the cold months however, and 
abstain in spring and summer. i was into sports then. 

so the heavy chain smoking only filled 12 years with one 9 month 
interruption some eight years ago.

in my family everyone apart from my youngest sister has by now given
up smoking; though as my elder sister says, once and addict, always
an addict. this is so true. it really is a day-to-day battle and reminding
oneself of the danger of addiction, even with just one casual smoke, seems 
the only way to stay clean. i don't mind others smoking though or sitting 
in moderately smoke filled places. in fact i derive some uncanny pleasure 
from having the odd passive smoke this way! >:-)



andreas.

We are about to enter the last half of the last decade of the last century
before AD 2000.  The new millennium actually begins with 2001, but there seems
to be a good deal of anticipation about the year with all the zeros.  I'm
not clear why.  It's just a number.

I've made no resolutions for 1996.

I made a couple resolutions for 1995 and I met them, though perhaps not as
fully as I'd have liked.

How about you?  Any challenges you see yourself taking on in 1996?

Shalom,
Richard

    The only one I have is to try to get two more neighbors to register to
    vote, and to make sure they make it to the polls this year.  Too many
    bad polititions are elected by good people who don't vote.  
    
    meg

    
    Not so much a New Year's resolution, but more of a re-commitment to
    myself, I hope to: be an open-minded listener and an informed,
    considerate respondent in this conference; to be a better husband and
    father; to re-invigorate my commitment to my faith and church. 

    Eric

	Gee, Eric.... didn't know that you needed to improve.....

    
    Oh, come on Glen. You're just sucking up so I'll agree with every thing
    you say! :^) I'm sure everyone, from Jeff to Patricia (not to mention my
    family), thinks I have room - perhaps *plenty* of room - for improvement.

    Eric

	You saw through that, huh? heh heh.... well, you are human, so
improvement will always be needed. :-)

        You saw through that, huh? heh heh.... well, you are human, so
        improvement will always be needed. :-)

An honest question. The quote above implies that God is perfect, and no 
improvement is possible. If this is true, does that mean that this world is 
the best it could possibly be?

Steve

re Note 1024.19 by TINCUP::inwo.cxo.dec.com::Bittrolff;

> An honest question. The quote above implies that God is perfect, and no 
> improvement is possible. If this is true, does that mean that this world is 
> the best it could possibly be?
  
        God warranted creation against defects for only a 90-day
        period.

        Bob

	Steve, the world can get better. We just have to improve. :-)  


Glen

re .19

;An honest question. The quote above implies that God is perfect, and no 
;improvement is possible. If this is true, does that mean that this world is 
;the best it could possibly be?

Steve,

No, even so God has firmly established the earth...

Isaiah 45:18 NWT "This is what Jehovah has said, the creator of the heavens,
He the true God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One
who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who
formed it even to be inhabited"

Being a loving Father he gave the task of turning the whole earth into a 
paradise to it's human inhabitants. This way humans could enjoy the work 
of their hands and take pleasure in accomplishing the task set for them.

Genesis 1:28 NWT "Go blessed them and God said to them : Be fruitful and
become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the
fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living
creature that is moving upon the earth'" 

For the first human couple this would have meant extending the boundaries 
of the garden of Eden to cover the whole earth. However as you know 
from the Bible they rebelled as thus where expelled from the garden.

Genesis 2:8,15 DY "The Lord God had planted a paradise of pleasure from
the beginning: wherein he placed man whom he had formed. And the Lord
God took man, and put him into the paradise of pleasure, to dress it,
and to keep it."

Today, the prevalent spirit is one of greed, and rather than helping to
live in harmony with the planet, man is intent on ruining it. However,
God's purpose for a paradise earth has not changed and will become a
reality. He has set a time to bring an end to this rebellion, so at
Armageddon those vent on bringing the earth to ruin are destroyed.

Revelation 11:18 "The nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came,
and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give their
reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones.... and to
bring to ruin those ruining the earth."

There will be survivors of Armageddon (compare Psalm 37:9-11,29, 
Proverbs 2:21,22), these ones will be used in restoring the earth
to a paradise as God originally intended. It will be a place of peace
and security...

Ezekiel 34:25-27 NWT "I will conclude with them a covenant of peace,
and I shall certainly cause the injurious wild beast to cease out
out of the land, and they will actually dwell in the wilderness in
security and sleep in the forests. And I will make them and the
surroundings of my hill a blessing, and I will cause the pouring
rain to descend in it's time. Pouring rains of blessing there will
prove to be...and they will actually prove to be on their soil in
security."

The Bible contains many wonderful promises of what it will be like
under Christ's kingdom or government. Something that Jesus told
his followers to pray for...

Matthew 6:9,10 NWT "Our Father in the heavens, let your.... kingdom
come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth."

Jesus promised that the meek would inherit the earth, that is those
acknowledge God's will and purposes rather than their own (Matthew 5:5). 
God's name Jehovah means "He Causes to Become" indicating that he is
a God of purpose. He also gives purpose to his human creation, it
is up to us as individuals to decide if we want to part of God's 
purpose.


Phil. 

re: the last few

And this earth, as it is today, is what I simply cannot contort logic enough 
to get around.

You have an omnipotent being, yet he was unable to create a set of beings and 
circumstances, with whatever attributes he desired (such as free will) that 
avoided the massive pain and suffering present today. Further, according to 
the prophecies, he *knew* exactly how it would turn out, but promised to fix 
it later. This promise to fix it later implies that he could have 'fixed it' 
at any time, or not show the problems at all, but has chosen not to. 

From a logic standpoint one has to conclude that either God is NOT omnipotent 
(at some point things spiralled out of his control) or that he is not 
all-loving (and I'll leave the examples of this as an excercise of the reader, 
they are too numerous (by several hundreds of millions) to go into here).

Take your pick, without resorting to truly impressive feats of logical 
gymnastics (usually relating to 'free will') you simply can't get by this.

Steve

Or we simply don't have the whole picture. I think in the end, the good will
far outweigh the bad.

Leslie

Hi Steve,
    
>You have an omnipotent being, yet he was unable to create a set of beings and 
>circumstances, with whatever attributes he desired (such as free will) that 
>avoided the massive pain and suffering present today. 
    
    Your premise is terribly flawed, Steve.  But you're not alone. 
    According to the Bible, God is omnipotent and created everything that
    was made.  Certainly God who created everything is able to create a set
    of beings who have precisely the attributes he desired, including the
    responsibility to choose good over evil.  Paul refers to the "mystery
    of iniquity" in the Bible.  The problem you refer to is not one of logic 
    but one of ignorance.
    
    >Further, according to the prophecies, he *knew* exactly how it would turn 
    >out, but promised to fix it later. This promise to fix it later implies 
    >that he could have 'fixed it' at any time, or not show the problems at all,
    >but has chosen not to. 
    
    Not only according to the prophecies but according to His own attribute
    of omniscience and sovereignty over all of His creation.  
    
    Your stance is that He is somehow responsible for our behavior.  It is 
    clear that *we*, you and I, are solely responsible for our own behavior 
    before God, according to the Bible.  Of course, as an unbeliever this 
    truth is suppressed by us in unrighteousness, that is, by our sinful 
    response to the truth and by our sinful actions, according to the Bible.
    
    The fix God has provided is the fix God has defined as required, that
    is, by His grace and power incarnating Himself in the flesh, living a
    human life...perfectly according to His own Law, and voluntarily
    sacrificing Himself at the hands of mere mortals shedding His very own
    blood to redeem His own. Then He rose from the dead, demonstrating His
    power to humanity and divine beings over all of creation.  And then
    informed the world that a person's acceptance and belief in His fix,
    indeed fixes the problem for that person and ultimately for the world.
    This is the greatest act of love, grace, omnipotence, omniscience one can 
    imagine.  God deferred, suffered on my behalf, was crucified, and redeemed 
    me even while I was yet a gross sinner by nature and unable to save
    myself.  There is no other hope in the world.  I am humbled by such a
    fix!!

>From a logic standpoint one has to conclude that either God is NOT omnipotent 
>(at some point things spiralled out of his control) or that he is not 
>all-loving (and I'll leave the examples of this as an excercise of the reader, 
>they are too numerous (by several hundreds of millions) to go into here).

    Not at all, Steve.  Your premise is a flawed one and therefore your
    conclusion must be wrong.  You are arguing from a situation to God rather
    than from God to a situation, an altogether different argument.
    
    From a logic standpoint with the Bible as the presupposition of the
    description of God and His attributes, He is undoubtedly omnipotent
    (must be logically or He is not God) but has not revealed why He
    allowed sin to exist in the first place, therefore a mystery not a
    diminishing of His omnipotence.
    
    I suspect that He is not "all-loving" as you define the term.    
    
>Take your pick, without resorting to truly impressive feats of logical 
>gymnastics (usually relating to 'free will') you simply can't get by this.

    Your example is a strawman, Steve.  It's easy to knock down.

    jeff

.25 Jeff Benson

    I suspect that He is not "all-loving" as you define the term.    
    
Fer shure, man.

Jeff,

Sorry, but your explanation was a perfect example of the logical gymnastics to
which I referred. Show me the break in this chain (I'll even leave all-loving
out of this one):

1. God is omnipotent.		(Premise)
2. God is omniscient.		(Premise)
3. God created the world.	(Premise)
4. The world is a mess.		(Observation)
5. God knew the world would be a mess (see #2)	(Deduction)
6. God *could* have created the world so that it did not turn 
   out to be a mess (see #1)	(Premise/Deduction)

Conclusion: For whatever reason, God *chose* to create a mess.
				
This looks like an argument from God to the situation, but I could reorder it 
if you prefer, not that I think it makes any difference. If you disagree with 
my conclusion, please let me know how, i.e. did God not create this mess, did 
he not choose to, or something else. 

BTW, we should find some other topic for this discussion, it really doesn't 
fit here.

Steve

    
    Hey Steve,
    
>Jeff,

>Sorry, but your explanation was a perfect example of the logical gymnastics to
>which I referred. Show me the break in this chain (I'll even leave all-loving
>out of this one):


>1. God is omnipotent.		(Premise)
>2. God is omniscient.		(Premise)
>3. God created the world.	(Premise)
>4. The world is a mess.		(Observation)
>5. God knew the world would be a mess (see #2)	(Deduction)
>6. God *could* have created the world so that it did not turn 
>   out to be a mess (see #1)	(Premise/Deduction)

>Conclusion: For whatever reason, God *chose* to create a mess.

Your logical flaws are several.  The terms "world" and "mess" are undefined
    and extremely broad.
And your conclusion does not follow from your premisses.  The proper conclusion
is that God *did not* choose to create the world so that it did not turn out
to be a mess, your terms withstanding.

jeff
				

.27 Jeff Benson

>>Your logical flaws are several.  The terms "world" and "mess" are undefined
>>    and extremely broad.

Fine, then show me the break (which is what I asked originally) in the chain. 
Point out the logical flaws. All you have said here is "Is not logical, neener 
neener neener" :^) As for the world and messes, does Bosnia, and the horrors 
there count as a mess? How about mass starvation, other wars, individual 
atrocities, well, you get the idea. It is not what I believe *any* rational 
caring person would allow, or in this case create, given a choice. Did God not 
have a choice?

>>And your conclusion does not follow from your premisses.  The proper 
>>conclusion
>>is that God *did not* choose to create the world so that it did not turn out
>>to be a mess, your terms withstanding.

You're begging the question (and are incorrect to boot). Does this mean that 
you agree with that conclusion?

Steve

    
    The "world" is hardly an unqualified "mess", Steve.  And I thought the
    flaw in your reasoning is obvious.
    
    Furthermore, your argument excludes human responsibility altogether.
    
    jeff
    
    

Jeff,

If it is that obvious *PLEASE* tell me what it is! This is the third time I've 
asked you this.

If all you are focusing on is the definition of mess, then let me cite a few 
instances of things that are not as good as they could be:

Bosnia, Chechnya, Somalia, Norther Ireland (improving, though), Iraq, Iran...

As for human responsibility, given an omnipotent creator I believe it is 
probably an oxymoron, but am willing to concede free will for arguments sake. 
The bottom line is still that the world is far from perfect, I believe that 
with minimal effort any reasonably intelligent omnipotent being could improve 
it tremendously. I am also still waiting for the break in the chain I 
presented earlier...

And please don't tell me it is obvious, point it out directly, i.e. #4 does 
not follow #3 because...

Steve

    The world may look like a total mess to us.  However,
    I have faith that it is unfolding exactly as it should.

    It's almost like God knows something we don't...

    
    Tom

    Actually, Tom is correct in this perception.  I belive God has ordained
    how things are unfolding.
    
    -Jack

re.32

 Jack,

 Or God foreknew how things would turn out, if it was fore ordained
 then how could he condemn an ungodly world. Comparison scriptures
 are 1 John 5:19 that show the world is lying in the power of the
 wicked one, hence the prime reason for the mess we see. And the 
 later part of Revelation 11:18 which tells us the God will bring 
 to ruin those ruining the earth. 

 Remember God is a just judge, persons are judged on the choices they
 make. If individuals are fore ordained to do bad, then they have no
 free will. By saying God ordained the mess we see today, would in
 my opinion be agreeing with Steve's view that God is ultimately to 
 blame for what we see.

 BTW I do believe the bible discusses fore ordination, but this is a
 class of people rather than specific individuals. Many are invited
 but few respond to the invitation. 

 Phil.

> Remember God is a just judge, persons are judged on the choices they
> make. If individuals are fore ordained to do bad, then they have no
> free will. 

    True, but God sets up the circumstances for people to exercise
    their free will.  I also believe that will is not *always*
    free from God.  Situations are created that we cannot always
    understand what is intended.  They make you stop and think.
    Barring a revelation, we then have to simply accept it as
    God's will and work with it.

> By saying God ordained the mess we see today, would in
> my opinion be agreeing with Steve's view that God is ultimately to 
> blame for what we see.

    Or ultimately to be praised for what we see.  

    Tom

    
    Steve,
    
    My last sentence in .27 is specific.
    
    jeff

.32 Jack Martin

    Actually, Tom is correct in this perception.  I belive God has ordained
    how things are unfolding.

By definition. My question was is this the best He could do?

.33 Phil Yerkess

 then how could he condemn an ungodly world. Comparison scriptures
 are 1 John 5:19 that show the world is lying in the power of the
 wicked one, hence the prime reason for the mess we see. And the 

But this begs the question, as God created the wicked one, again presumably 
knowing how it would turn out.

.35 Jeff Benson

    My last sentence in .27 is specific.

I don't agree. If the creater were not omniscient I would agree. Because He  
knew the outcome, however, I believe my conclusion is correct. Yours would 
be correct if he were not omniscient. 

If I drop a rock over a pane of glass, I know what will happen. Saying that 
I did not choose to break the glass, but rather that I did not choose to 
drop the rock so that nothing was broken is one of those excercises in 
convoluted logic I've referred to.

Steve

    
    Knowledge and action are different things.  One does not have to do
    because one knows.
    
    jeff