Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

      Hi Richard,
    
        Say whatch you doing at a terminal at this time!!  ;-)
    
        God knows the heart and in Hill's case, it must either
        be an awful immature heart or one that don't know God 
        at all!
    
        In the case of Dahmer, I really feel for the guy (as sick
        as he was).  I saw the recent interview with him and he
        said that his thoughts were such that they were "unsharable."
    
        How would you like to be afflicted with thoughts that are
        unsharable as they are so monstrous?
    
        I am sure several people urged Dahmer to give His life to the
        Lord.  However, for a guy to be able to do what he did...well
        that indicates an awful hard heart and only God knows if it
        was hard past the point of being drawn anymore.
    
        We're just not to judge, but I do recognize you are not asking
        for judgment, but rather probabilities.
    
                                                   Tony

 The Bible says "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten
 son that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish but have eternal life".

 Also says "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved".

 The Bible also says if we confess our sins, he'll forgive them..

 As far as I can tell, both Hill and DAhmer fall into the category of 
 "whosoever".  I believe that Dahmer, assuming his acceptance of Christ was
  genuine, is  in Heaven.  As far as Hill, I believe, that he too will be 
  in Heaven, based on my understanding of Scripture


 Jim

Re: .2 Jim

> The Bible also says if we confess our sins, he'll forgive them..

Did Hill confess his sin of murder and ask for God's forgiveness?  (As I
understand it, Hill has said "Yes, I killed the abortion doctor, but it
wasn't murder").

				-- Bob

RE             <<< Note 1013.3 by GRIM::MESSENGER "Bob Messenger" >>>


>> The Bible also says if we confess our sins, he'll forgive them..

>Did Hill confess his sin of murder and ask for God's forgiveness?  (As I
>understand it, Hill has said "Yes, I killed the abortion doctor, but it
>wasn't murder").



  Beats me..




 Jim

Paul Hill is publicly unrepentant and continues to maintain that his
crime was justifiable homicide.

If the doctrine of "invincible ignorance" is true, then Paul Hill can
still go to heaven.

An infinitely merciful God would most likely provide Paul Hill some
sort of final opportunity to understand that what he did was wrong,
and give him the opportunity for repentance.

But we cannot be certain of anyone's final judgment.

/john

.5

Do I fall under the doctrine of 'Invincible Ignorance'? :^)

Steve

re Note 1013.5 by COVERT::COVERT:

        I like that phrase "invincible ignorance" -- it certainly
        could explain a lot!  :-)

        Bob

    maybe we need an invincibly ignorant note.  All who want to claim
    invincible ignorance please sign in.
    
    
    Patricia-Signing in.

	Since I don't know what "invincible ignorance" is I must automatically
qualify!  8*)

	As to the question at hand, I think there is a 100% chance that neither
will go to heaven when they die. Not based on their crimes but rather on the
biblical basis that all people go to Hades (the abode of the dead) when they die.

I realize that is more of a technical answer than the philosophical one that was
sought after.

ace

      re: -1
    
      I agree with Ace on this one!!
    
      As to what happens after the second resurrection...   ;-)
    
                                            Tony

    Paul Hill was today sentenced to the death penalty.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    Paul Hill was also given two life sentences for violated the
    Freedom of Access to Clinics law.  Is this not unusual?  Does this
    mean that the next time a group comes into my church throwing
    condoms around and yelling 'religious slurs' they will be 
    sentenced to two life sentences in prison.
    
    Pam
    
    P.S.  I am not condoning at all what Paul Hill did.  I do not
    believe that we are to appoint ourselves prosecutor, judge and
    executioner on anyone no matter what they have done.  He was 
    wrong.  I just think that this sentence - considering that he
    was charged separately for violating FACES - was strange.

RE:      <<< Note 1013.12 by CSC32::P_SO "Get those shoes off your head!" >>>

   > Paul Hill was also given two life sentences for violated the
   > Freedom of Access to Clinics law.  Is this not unusual?  Does this
   > mean that the next time a group comes into my church throwing
   > condoms around and yelling 'religious slurs' they will be 
   > sentenced to two life sentences in prison.
    

   Of course not...anti Christian bigotry is acceptable in the good ol'
   US of A.  What Paul Hill did was clearly wrong and he should be punished.
   I must admit to being baffled over the coverage his sentencing gets on the
   news, with nary a whimper over the millions of innocent lives snuffed out
   at the hands of abortionists.  Where is the outrage over that injustice?




   Jim


    

| <<< Note 1013.13 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Friend will you be ready?" >>>



| I must admit to being baffled over the coverage his sentencing gets on the
| news, with nary a whimper over the millions of innocent lives snuffed out
| at the hands of abortionists.  Where is the outrage over that injustice?


	Jim, it might have something to do with what Paul Hill did was illegal,
and abortions are legal. 


Glen

Re: .12 Pam

>    Paul Hill was also given two life sentences for violated the
>    Freedom of Access to Clinics law.

Look at the bright side: now that he's been sentenced to death under state
law those two life sentences might not be very long. :-)

>    Does this mean that the next time a group comes into my church throwing
>    condoms around and yelling 'religious slurs' they will be 
>    sentenced to two life sentences in prison.
    
Only if they kill someone.  By the way, isn't it the Freedom of Access to
Clinics and Churches law, or something like that?

Re: .13 Jim

>   I must admit to being baffled over the coverage his sentencing gets on the
>   news, with nary a whimper over the millions of innocent lives snuffed out
>   at the hands of abortionists.  Where is the outrage over that injustice?

For people who don't think abortion is morally wrong, why should there be
outrage?  Think of the billions of potential children who are never born
because their parents don't get pregnant at the right time.  Is there
outrage over the loss of these unused egg and sperm cells?

If children were getting killed, as opposed to fetuses, *then* there would
be outrage.

Hope this helps.

				-- Bob

    re .-1
    
    Yes, he committed murder...but, the charge was violation of
    FACE.  The murder charge was separate.  
    
    Pam

>If children were getting killed, as opposed to fetuses, *then* there would
>be outrage.

>Hope this helps.



 yeah...helps a lot.

Pam,

I'm guessing that FACE imposes a life sentence on someone who kills
another person while picketing a clinic (or church?) and that the penalty
provided for mere harrassment is much less.  Maybe someone who has seen
the law could confirm this.

				-- Bob

RE:               <<< Note 1013.14 by BIGQ::SILVA "Memories....." >>>


>	Jim, it might have something to do with what Paul Hill did was illegal,
>and abortions are legal. 



 Right. 

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the "Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act of
1994".

SEC. 2. PURPOSE.

Pursuant to the affirmative power of Congress to enact this legislation
under section 5 of the fourteenth amendment to the Constitution, it is
the purpose of this Act to protect and promote the public safety and
health and activities affecting interstate commerce by establishing
Federal criminal penalties and civil remedies for certain violent,
threatening, obstructive and destructive conduct that is intended to
injure, intimidate or interfere with persons seeking to obtain or provide
reproductive health services.

SEC. 3. FREEDOM OF ACCESS TO CLINIC ENTRANCES.

Chapter 13 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding at the
end thereof the following new section:

"�248. Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances.

  "(a) PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES. -- Whoever --

    "(1) by force or threat of force or by physical obstruction,
    intentionally injures, intimidates or interferes with or attempts
    to injure, intimidate or interfere with any person because that person
    is or has been, or in order to intimidate such person or any other
    person or any class of persons from, obtaining or providing
    reproductive health services;
    "(2) by force or threat of force or by physical obstruction,
    intentionally injures, intimidates or interferes with or attempts
    to injure, intimidate or interfere with any person lawfully
    exercising or seeking to exercise the First Amendment right of
    religious freedom at a place of religious worship; or
    "(3) intentionally damages or destroys the property of a facility,
    or attempts to do so, because such facility provides reproductive
    health services, or intentionally damages or destroys the property
    of a place of religious worship,

shall be subject to the penalties provided in subsection (b) and the civil
remedies provided in subsection (c), except that a parent or legal guardian
of a minor shall not be subject to any penalties or civil remedies under
this section for such activities insofar as they are directed exclusively
at that minor.

  "(b) PENALTIES. -- Whoever violates this section shall --

    "(1) in the case of a first offense, be fined in accordance with this
    title [not more than $100,000], or imprisoned not more than one year,
    or both;
    and
    "(2) in the case of a second or subsequent offense after a prior
    conviction under this section, be fined in accordance with this
    title [not more than $250,000], or imprisoned not more than 3 years,
    or both;

except that for an offense involving exclusively a nonviolent physical
obstruction, the fine shall be not more than $10,000 and the length of
imprisonment shall be not more than six months, or both, for the first
offense; and the fine shall be not more than $25,000 and the length of
imprisonment shall be not more than 18 months, or both, for a subsequent
offense; and except that if bodily injury results, the length of imprisonment
shall be not more than 10 years, and if death results, it shall be for any
term of years or for life.

  "(c) CIVIL REMEDIES.--

    "(1) RIGHT OF ACTION.--
      "(A) IN GENERAL.-- Any person aggrieved by reason of the conduct
    prohibited by subsection (a) may commence a civil action for the relief
    set forth in subparagraph (B), except that such and action may be brought
    under subsection (a)(1) only by a person involved in providing or seeking
    to provide, or obtaining or seeking to obtain, services in a facility
    that provides reproductive health services, and such an action may be
    brought under subsection (a)(2) only by a person lawfully exercising or
    seeking to exercise the First Amendment right of religious freedom at a
    place of religious worship or by the entity that owns or operates such
    place of religious worship.
      "(B) RELIEF.-- In any action under subparagraph (A), the court may
    award appropriate relief, including temporary, preliminary or permanent
    injunctive relief and compensatory and punitive damages, as well as the
    costs of suit and reasonable fees for attorneys and expert witnesses.
    With respect to compensatory damages, the plaintiff may elect, at any
    time prior to the rendering of final judgment, to recover, in lieu of
    actual damages, an award of statutory damages in the amount of $5,000
    per violation.

    "(2) ACTION BY ATTORNEY GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES.--
      "(A) IN GENERAL.-- If the Attorney General of the United States has
    reasonable cause to believe that any person or group of persons is
    being, has been, or may be injured by conduct constituting a violation
    of this section, the Attorney General may commence a civil action in
    any appropriate United States District Court.
      "(B) RELIEF.-- In any action under subparagraph (A), the court may
    award appropriate relief, including temporary, preliminary or permanent
    injunctive relief, and compensatory damages to persons aggrieved as
    described in paragraph (1)(B).  The court, to vindicate the public
    interest, may also asses a civil penalty against each respondent--
        "(i) in an amount not exceeding $10,000 for a nonviolent physical
      obstruction and $15,000 for other first violations; and
        "(ii) in an amount not exceeding $15,000 for a nonviolent physical
      obstruction and $25,000 for any other subsequent violation.

    "(3) ACTIONS OF STATE ATTORNEYS GENERAL.--
      "(A) IN GENERAL.-- If the Attorney General of a State has reasonable
    cause to believe that any person or group of persons is being, has been,
    or may be injured by conduct constituting a violation of this section,
    such Attorney General may commence a civil action in the name of such
    State, in any appropriate United States District Court.
      "(B) RELIEF.-- In any action under subparagraph (A), the court may
    award appropriate relief, including temporary, preliminary or permanent
    injunctive relief, compensatory damages, and civil penalties as described
    in paragraph (2)(B).

  "(d) RULES OF CONSTRUCTION.-- Nothing in this section shall be construed--
    "(1) to prohibit any expressive conduct (including peaceful picketing or
    other peaceful demonstration) protected from legal prohibition by the
    First Amendment to the Constitution;
    "(2) to create new remedies for interference with activities protected
    by the free speech or free exercise clauses of the First Amendment to
    the Constitution, occurring outside a facility, regardless of the point
    of view expressed, or to limit any existing legal remedies for such
    interference;
    "(3) to provide exclusive criminal penalties or civil remedies with
    respect to the conduct prohibited by this section, or to preempt
    State of local laws that may provide such penalties or remedies; or
    "(4) to interfere with the enforcement of State or local laws
    regulating the performance of abortions and other reproductive
    health services.

  "(e) DEFINITIONS.-- As used in this section:
    "(1) FACILITY.-- The term `facility' includes a hospital, clinic,
    physicians office, or other facility that provides reproductive
    health services, and includes the building or structure in which
    the facility is located.
    "(2) INTERFERE WITH.-- The term `interfere with' means to restrict
    a person's freedom of movement.
    "(3) INTIMIDATE.-- The term `intimidate' means to place a person in
    reasonable apprehension of bodily harm to him- or herself or to
    another.
    "(4) PHYSICAL OBSTRUCTION.-- The term `physical obstruction' means
    rendering impassable ingress to or egress from a facility that
    provides reproductive health services or to or from a place of
    religious worship, or rendering passage to or from such a facility
    or place of religious worship unreasonably difficult or hazardous.
    "(5) REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH SERVICES.-- The term `reproductive health
    services' means reproductive health services provided in a hospital,
    clinic, physician's office, or other facility, and includes medical,
    surgical, counselling or referral services relating to pregnancy
    or the termination of a pregnancy.
    "(6) STATE.-- The term `State' includes a state of the United States,
    the District of Columbia, and any commonwealth, territory, or possession
    of the United States.".

SEC. 4. CLERICAL AMENDMENT.

The table of sections at the beginning of chapter 13 of title 18, United
States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following new item:

"248. Blocking access to reproductive health services."

SEC. 5. SEVERABILITY.

If any provision of this Act, an amendment made by this Act, or the
application of such provision or amendment to any person or circumstance
is held to be unconstitutional, the remainder of this Act, the amendments
made by this Act, and the application of the provisions of such to any
other person or circumstance shall not be affected thereby.

SEC. 6. EFFECTIVE DATE.

This Act takes effect on the date of the enactment of this Act, and shall
apply only with respect to conduct occurring on or after such date.

Thanks for posting that, John.  As I guessed, it looks like someone who
commits murder during a protest at a church would also be subject to life
imprisonment under this law.

				-- Bob

    thanks John.  That clears it up a lot.
    
    Pam

.13 CSLALL::HENDERSON "Friend will you be ready?"

   Of course not...anti Christian bigotry is acceptable in the good ol'
   US of A.  

Oh, come on Jim. A persecuted minority you ain't. Stop imagining yourself in the
role of martyr. The next time your church is violated you have the same remedy,
from the same law, available to you.

Steve

>   Of course not...anti Christian bigotry is acceptable in the good ol'
>   US of A.  
>
>Oh, come on Jim. A persecuted minority you ain't. Stop imagining yourself in the
>role of martyr. The next time your church is violated you have the same remedy,
>from the same law, available to you.
    
    It's not our imaginations, it's fact.  Here are a few examples to think 
    about:
    
    - we have to home school our children to avoid OBE and B.F. Skinner's
      behavior modification techniques, in addition to a *theory* taught as
      fact that rejects God as the Creator.  
    - Christians are still laughed at and ridiculed in public.
    - Christians can't get equal time in the media unless they're some
      lunatic committing a crime.  Then they make sure they blanket all
      Christians with the same stereotypes.
    - Christians are forced to pay taxes to support laws that are anti-Christ 
      and His Word.  If we complain about it, we're considered non-team
      players.
    - Christians are pretty much considered to be a thorn-in-the-flesh by
      the world because we remind them of their nature and their need for a
      Savior.  We are the light of the world as Christ said, and the world
      doesn't appreciate the reminder of sin.
    - Because of the above, we are considered a hinderance to "progress,"
      intolerant, and liberals want us out of the way so they can do as they
      please instead of as God pleases.
    - It is extremely ironic that the door to religious freedom is
      gradually closing in this country as Russia is opening her's.
    
    Our only consolations are that:
    
    - they haven't started crucifying/executing Christians like they have in 
      the Middle East.  
    - we can still go to church, unlike our brothers and sisters in China.
    - we can still read our Bible's in public, unlike the Chinese Christians.
    
    Mike

| <<< Note 1013.24 by FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything" >>>



| - we have to home school our children to avoid OBE and B.F. Skinner's behavior
| modification techniques, in addition to a *theory* taught as fact that rejects
| God as the Creator.

	People don't go to church because they don't want to hear about God
being the creator instead of what they believe to be true. Think about it, in
this country you have these options. It's the parent(s) in this case that make
these decisions.

| - Christians are still laughed at and ridiculed in public.

	Go down south and they are not. But people of colour, gays and the like
are in many areas. The real question is, what are you doing about it?

| - Christians can't get equal time in the media unless they're some lunatic 
| committing a crime.  Then they make sure they blanket all Christians with the 
| same stereotypes.

	I have seen many a story that promotes the average Christian faith.
Stereotypes for <insert group> will be there until someone, or a group of
people do something about it. So that leads us back to, what are you doing
about this?

| - Christians are forced to pay taxes to support laws that are anti-Christ and 
| His Word.  If we complain about it, we're considered non-team players.

	Churches are exempt from having to pay taxes, even though the most poor
still have to. 

| - Christians are pretty much considered to be a thorn-in-the-flesh by the 
| world because we remind them of their nature and their need for a Savior.  
| We are the light of the world as Christ said, and the world doesn't appreciate
| the reminder of sin.

	This is your own projection as to the reason why Christians are
considered a thorn-in-the-flesh. It's one of MANY reasons, not an everyone
thing. And Christians are seen this way by the silent majority. You allow the
vocal minority to speak out, but then you only see a few places doing anything
against what they say. The only time you hear anything is when someone went too
far with an action.

| - Because of the above, we are considered a hinderance to "progress," 
| intolerant, and liberals want us out of the way so they can do as they
| please instead of as God pleases.

	Again, while your first ones were examples, you now seem to be giving
us your own projections.

| - It is extremely ironic that the door to religious freedom is gradually 
| closing in this country as Russia is opening her's.

	If you believe this is true, what are you doing about it? You see, many
can complain. That's easy. But will those same people do anything to stop what
they feel are the injustices, or will they sit back and just keep complaining.

| - they haven't started crucifying/executing Christians like they have in
| the Middle East.
| - we can still go to church, unlike our brothers and sisters in China.
| - we can still read our Bible's in public, unlike the Chinese Christians.

	Mike, you amaze me....


Glen

>   Of course not...anti Christian bigotry is acceptable in the good ol'
>   US of A.  

>Oh, come on Jim. A persecuted minority you ain't. Stop imagining yourself in the
>role of martyr. The next time your church is violated you have the same remedy,
>from the same law, available to you.



Ever had somebody say to you "Hey, is that a Bible you're carrying?" and then
laugh at you when you reply "yes"?

Ever been laughed at when praying before eating in a restaurant?

Ever had someone refer to your faith as "primitive superstition" and openly
ridicule you?


Ever had the police called on you while visiting a neighborhood (in a church
van) in broad daylight? (soliciting being the accusation).



Jim

| <<< Note 1013.26 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Friend will you be ready?" >>>


| Ever had somebody say to you "Hey, is that a Bible you're carrying?" and then
| laugh at you when you reply "yes"?

	Jim, things happen to lots of people. Are they right? No. The question
is, what do you do about it? Anything? I had my perception of Christians. The
majority are not like the perception I had. How did I ever come to this
conclusion? They showed me otherwise. 

| Ever had someone refer to your faith as "primitive superstition" and openly
| ridicule you?

	Gee Jim, shall we go into my beliefs and what some Christians have
done? How about Patricia's? Steve's? I think you can see that it happens
everywhere. The answer is to change people's perceptions. Does it mean it will
never happen? No. There will always be some who will do it anyway. But then I
guess those people are also at fault because they didn't get to know the
individual, but took the standard stereotype and went to town with it.

| Ever had the police called on you while visiting a neighborhood (in a church
| van) in broad daylight? (soliciting being the accusation).

	Kind of the same thing people get from some when they pass out safe sex
literature, condoms, etc. People overreacting. It's there for everyone. You
want it changed, do something about it.



Glen

 Ok Glen...


 Thanks



 Jim

	You're welcome

re Note 1013.24 by FRETZ::HEISER:

>     - Because of the above, we are considered a hinderance to "progress,"
>       intolerant, and liberals want us out of the way so they can do as they
>       please instead of as God pleases.

        Do you consider "liberals" to be the Christian's enemies and
        "conservatives" to be the Christian's allies?

        Is it just possible that conservatives (today) want
        Christians in place so that they can manipulate and exploit
        them, so that conservatives can do what they please?

        Doesn't it bother you at least a little that "Christian" is
        becoming so identified with one of the major political
        philosophies in this world (and one which appears to be on
        the ascendancy in the US, at least)?

        Aren't you a teeny weenie bit afraid that in Christians'
        haste to escape the jaws of "liberalism" that they may be
        going to bed with simply another secular world view? 

        Political conservatism is at least as much "of this world" as
        political liberalism.

        Bob

	Bob, I'm not sure how you do it, but another classic note that says a
lot! Glad you're writing!

    Glen, it's taking me years to show my neighbors and co-workers that all
    Christians aren't the same.  It's a slow and painful process, but the
    people I come in contact with are realizing now some of the things you
    have.  I am just one person doing the best I can.  I can't speak for
    everyone in Christiandom or set an example for the world to see.  For
    every step forward we gain, we lose 2 steps because of clowns like Paul
    Hill, Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Robert Tilton, and a host of others.
    The bottomline is that you can be sure I'm out here in the trenches
    doing my best with the lives I come in contact with.  How about yourself?
    
    BTW - the church's don't pay taxes (yet), but folks like Jim and I do. 
    I don't feel I should be taxed for things that are morally and
    Biblically wrong and represent the essence of anti-Christ, do you?
    
    Mike

    Just goes to show you that the US isn't a Christian nation.

    mike,
    
    (pardon me, since your question wasn't addressed generally)
    
    i pay taxes to support all sorts of things that i object to..
    i think most of us do in one way or another. some of the taxes
    i pay _do_ support things that i support as i'm sure _some_
    of your taxes do.
    
    it's the price that we pay to get those things that we want.
    
    peter

    Taxation in the support of the military or sin taxes on cigarettes and
    alcohol products is a far cry from things that are anti-Christ. 
    Fetal-tissue research is a good example.  Funding Planned Parenthood
    [what a sic oxymoron] is another.
    
    Mike

    The Military certainly is more effective than Planned parenthood!
    
                                  Patricia

Note 1013.35

>    Taxation in the support of the military....is a far cry from
>    things that are anti-Christ. 

I disagree.  So would at least a handful of other Christians.

>    Fetal-tissue research is a good example.  Funding Planned Parenthood
>    [what a sic oxymoron] is another.
    
While I don't support PP, I know that it's not an organization run
by the purely Godless.

Shalom,
Richard

    Maybe if they're not totally Godless they shouldn't be working there.

 
I don't see how anyone can claim the name of Jesus Christ and be part of
any pro-abortion organization.  




Jim

    Topics 29, 30 and 31 deal with the Pro-choice versus Pro-life stances.
    
    This topic was intended to deal with certain individuals and the
    probability of being accepted into heaven.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    - we have to home school our children to avoid OBE and B.F. Skinner's
      behavior modification techniques, in addition to a *theory* taught as
      fact that rejects God as the Creator.  

The above may occur in some places, but I haven't seen it. You also have other
options than home schooling, such as some very fine parochial education. In my
estimation, btw, I consider most religious education as the ultimate behavior
modification technique. The theory of evolution does not address God in any way,
shape or form. It is simply the best theory currently available to explain what
we see. I know many Christians who feel that it in no way diminishes or
disproves God, and in fact believe that it is correct.

    - Christians are still laughed at and ridiculed in public.

As are *any* identifiable group at some time or another.

    - Christians can't get equal time in the media unless they're some
      lunatic committing a crime.  Then they make sure they blanket all
      Christians with the same stereotypes.

This argument is made by every group I've ever heard (i.e. the media
misrepresents us). Do you have any proof, other than your own subjective
observations.

    - Christians are forced to pay taxes to support laws that are anti-Christ 
      and His Word.  If we complain about it, we're considered non-team
      players.

This is persecution? Then every taxpayer in America is persecuted in this
manner, as I don't know anyone that agrees with all the places their taxes are
spent.

    - Christians are pretty much considered to be a thorn-in-the-flesh by
      the world because we remind them of their nature and their need for a
      Savior.  We are the light of the world as Christ said, and the world
      doesn't appreciate the reminder of sin.

I consider you to be a pain-in-the-neck because of your constant insistence that
I live according to the rules of your particular superstition, and are willing
to force me to comply by law. I don't however, persecute your beliefs.
You are also not a minority in this country, so being considered a pain by the
less than 10% that disagree with you can't be too hard to deal with.

    - Because of the above, we are considered a hinderance to "progress,"
      intolerant, and liberals want us out of the way so they can do as they
      please instead of as God pleases.

Some people disagree with you. This makes you persecuted? That philosophy is
best summed up by the following quote:

  "I am treated as evil by people who claim that they are being oppressed
   because they are not allowed to force me to practice what they do."
                       [D. Dale Gulledge]

    - It is extremely ironic that the door to religious freedom is
      gradually closing in this country as Russia is opening her's.

Yeah, right. Show me a pattern of how the door to religious freedom is closing
here. 

    Our only consolations are that:
    
    - they haven't started crucifying/executing Christians like they have in 
      the Middle East.  
    - we can still go to church, unlike our brothers and sisters in China.
    - we can still read our Bible's in public, unlike the Chinese Christians.

Your only consolations? Mike, I can only conclude that you have some need to
feel persecuted, the facts simply do not bear you out.

Steve

.26 CSLALL::HENDERSON "Friend will you be ready?"

>>Ever had somebody say to you "Hey, is that a Bible you're carrying?" and then
>>laugh at you when you reply "yes"?

>>Ever been laughed at when praying before eating in a restaurant?

>>Ever had someone refer to your faith as "primitive superstition" and openly
>>ridicule you?

Uh, obviously not :^) But I have had similar things happen to me due to my lack
of faith. So what? Some people (including some Christians) don't have a high
tolerance for views that do not agree with their own. (BTW, I don't feel
persecuted). 

>>Ever had the police called on you while visiting a neighborhood (in a church
>>van) in broad daylight? (soliciting being the accusation).

Huh? What does this have to do with religion?

Steve
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.33 APACHE::MYERS

    Just goes to show you that the US isn't a Christian nation.

What does?

    Well if
    
    > ...anti Christian bigotry is acceptable in the good ol' US of A.
    
    as stated in .13 then I don't see how the good ol' US of A can be a
    Christian nation.

RE:<<< Note 1013.42 by TINCUP::BITTROLFF "Creator of Buzzword Compliant Systems" >>>


>>>Ever had the police called on you while visiting a neighborhood (in a church
>>>van) in broad daylight? (soliciting being the accusation).

>Huh? What does this have to do with religion?



 people from our church were visiting neighborhoods inviting people to church
 and talking about our bus ministry whereby we bring kids (with parental 
 approval) to Sunday School/Church.  At one time such activities were welcomed,
 today, its considerably different.



 Jim

| <<< Note 1013.32 by FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything" >>>

| -< the bigotry is all around us >-

	No truer words have been spoken (ok, so maybe there are some :-)

| Glen, it's taking me years to show my neighbors and co-workers that all
| Christians aren't the same. It's a slow and painful process, but the people I 
| come in contact with are realizing now some of the things you have.  

	How do you go about doing this Mike? I'm curious.

| I am just one person doing the best I can.  

	Actually, we all could do better. What many do is to keep the immediate
world around us at bay, show them what we really are like, and have it end
there. Then like the people you have mentioned, they get the press, we look
bad. You had people like Bakker getting a lot of press from religious stations
LONG before anyone knew he took a side street. So my guess would be this is
another venue people could go to improve things. Getting involved with things
in your town, state level, etc (which you may already do), will help change the
perception of things. 

| I can't speak for everyone in Christiandom or set an example for the world to 
| see.  

	I disagree with the latter. This is why. You know there are many people
who you have been able to let see what most Christians are like, give or take a
few things. You have set an example for others to see, haven't you? And you did
it by being yourself. To do this for the world isn't going to be any different,
is it?

| The bottomline is that you can be sure I'm out here in the trenches doing my 
| best with the lives I come in contact with.  How about yourself?

	Me? Of course I'm out there. Like you I do my best. I've gotten some
things accomplished in work through seminars, dicussion panels, and even some
things with personnel. On the homefront it's been relatively easy, as the
neighborhood I live in is pretty cool. On a state level I could probably do
more. But on a Christianity level, a lot has been done. Because I have seen
that Christians aren't all like the Bakkers, etc, I, along with many other gays
have gone out in the community and have spoken up when people start off with
the stereotypes of Christians. The results have mostly been of the, "I didn't
realize that" kind. 

| BTW - the church's don't pay taxes (yet), but folks like Jim and I do. I don't
| feel I should be taxed for things that are morally and Biblically wrong and 
| represent the essence of anti-Christ, do you?

	I think we would probably disagree on what is or isn't Biblically wrong
in a lot of areas Mike. So while I would agree with your statement, it probably
won't match. :-)

	But if you don't want to pay for things you feel are wrong, then you
must agree that the churches have to pay their share too. Unless you can think
of a good reason why they should not. I mean, like I said, many people are dirt
poor, but they still need to pay taxes while churches pay nothing.


Glen

.44 CSLALL::HENDERSON "Learning to lean"

Jim,

If you are going to go door to door you are going to get the occasional hot-head
that calls the cops. I wouldn't do it (that's why I have a door), but it does
bother some people.

A question for you. If I were to come to your house, and talk about my atheist
playland whereby I take your kids and teach them how much better the world could
be if religion were taken out of it, might you not be tempted to call the cops?

If nothing else I'll bet you would be angry at my chutzpah in coming uninvited
to your house to try to sell you on a concept that you are opposed to.

Steve

RE:<<< Note 1013.46 by TINCUP::BITTROLFF "Creator of Buzzword Compliant Systems" >>>




>A question for you. If I were to come to your house, and talk about my atheist
>playland whereby I take your kids and teach them how much better the world could
>be if religion were taken out of it, might you not be tempted to call the cops?


no.  Once I heard the word "atheist" I would say no thanks.  I might ask you
in, and chat.




>If nothing else I'll bet you would be angry at my chutzpah in coming uninvited
>to your house to try to sell you on a concept that you are opposed to.


Christians out sharing the gospel don't have chutzpah, as you call it (though
it certainly is not always easy)..they are simply obeying the Lord Jesus
Christ.

Our practice, btw, is to knock on the door, introduce ourselves and our church,
and ask if they have a few minutes to chat..if yes, we'll try to hold a friendly
conversation "folksy" if you will, and discuss the plan of salvation if they
indicate they are interested.  If they have children, we'll explain our bus
ministry to them.  If they indicate no interest, there is no pressure, we 
thank them for their time and ask if we can leave some literature.   

What I find truly amazing is that many parents (my own personal "poll" shows
that about 80% of our bus kids come from single parent homes) don't really
care one way or the other where their kids are going or when they'll be 
back.  I've found myself in tears many times having heard the kids talk about
life at home..



Jim

>	How do you go about doing this Mike? I'm curious.
    
    Actions speak louder than words.  I don't push my faith on people I
    personally come in contact with unless they ask.  And believe me, they
    all ask eventually.  I've given my life to the Lord.  With Him working
    through me, people can tell I'm different.  While I like to joke around
    and have fun, they also realize that I don't use profanity, I don't
    drink alcohol or do drugs.  God has given me some talents and songs. 
    When He gives me the opportunity to share with people in song, I always
    play and sing for the Lord.  My neighbors, classmates, and co-workers all 
    talk to me about faith once they realize I serve the Lord.  Many times my 
    wife and I end up counseling them on some level.  People struggling in the 
    world always turn to Christians for help and/or guidance when trials come
    their way.  I teach at the church where I fellowship, and also daily
    lessons with my immediate family.  I'm just starting a home Bible study.  
    I play in the orchestra at church.  I'm involved politically (including
    the PTA and school district) on a local level, although not as much as I 
    would like.  Everything I do, I try to do unto the Lord and let His light 
    shine through me.  I try my best to represent my Savior to all the
    people I come in contact with.

�| I can't speak for everyone in Christiandom or set an example for the world to 
�| see.  
�
�	I disagree with the latter. This is why. You know there are many people
�who you have been able to let see what most Christians are like, give or take a
�few things. You have set an example for others to see, haven't you? And you did
�it by being yourself. To do this for the world isn't going to be any different,
�is it?
    
    Not really accurate.  I'm nothing on my own.  I have nothing to offer
    people that they would desire in their own lives.  I only have Jesus. 
    He is the only thing that people around me inquire about because sooner
    or later they realize that if He has given me peace and salvation, they
    can also receive it.  In addition, God hasn't put me in a position
    where I am to be an example to the whole world.  As God has revealed
    His calling on my life to this point, this isn't His intention.  That
    may be for the Billy Grahams and Chuck Smiths of the world, but it
    isn't for me right now.  You don't have to go to a Third World nation
    to be a missionary.  My mission is being an example to the lives I come
    in contact with in my little corner of the world.  Like the song says,
    "You may be the only Jesus that some will ever see!"  That is an
    awesome responsibility that we have!  God will change my scope of
    contact as He sees fit.  

>	Me? Of course I'm out there. Like you I do my best. I've gotten some
>things accomplished in work through seminars, dicussion panels, and even some
>things with personnel. On the homefront it's been relatively easy, as the
>neighborhood I live in is pretty cool. On a state level I could probably do
>more. But on a Christianity level, a lot has been done. Because I have seen
>that Christians aren't all like the Bakkers, etc, I, along with many other gays
>have gone out in the community and have spoken up when people start off with
>the stereotypes of Christians. The results have mostly been of the, "I didn't
>realize that" kind. 
    
    What I meant to say is how are you serving and representing your Savior
    and Lord to the lives you come in contact with?

>	I think we would probably disagree on what is or isn't Biblically wrong
>in a lot of areas Mike. So while I would agree with your statement, it probably
>won't match. :-)
    
    I'm sure you will agree with the words of Christ in the Bible and what
    He commanded us to do.
    
John 8:12
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that
followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

John 11:9
Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the
day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

John 11:10
But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

Matthew 5:15
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick;
and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and
glorify your Father which is in heaven.

>	But if you don't want to pay for things you feel are wrong, then you
>must agree that the churches have to pay their share too. Unless you can think
>of a good reason why they should not. I mean, like I said, many people are dirt
>poor, but they still need to pay taxes while churches pay nothing.
    
    Separation of church and state.  That door swings both ways.  As for
    the poor, many churches have lost the vision of the church's
    responsibility of those in need.
    
Matthew 25:40
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as
ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it
unto me.

    Mike

RE:        <<< Note 1013.48 by FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything" >>>

>>	How do you go about doing this Mike? I'm curious.
    
 >   Actions speak louder than words.  I don't push my faith on people I
 >   personally come in contact with unless they ask.  And believe me, they
 >   all ask eventually.  I've given my life to the Lord.  With Him working
 >   through me, people can tell I'm different.  While I like to joke around
 >   and have fun, they also realize that I don't use profanity, I don't
  


  The initial seed that led to my salvation was planted by a man such as you
 describe above, Mike.  I worked with him, and I could tell by the way he
 conducted himself that something was different about him.  Finally, one day
 I had to ask him...what *is* it about you..and he answered "Jesus Christ"...
 I praise God for putting that man in my life..I can't wait to see him in 
 heaven one day.



 Jim









  

      re: .30
    
      Hi Bob,
    
        Appreciated it too.  The religious right often trumpets 'right-
        doing', but to speak of it and LIVE it are two entirely different
        things.  The Pharisees knew their scriptures and wrapped the
        law around their foreheads...and they crucified Christ.
                                                     
        I kind of liken the conservatives to Pharisees and the liberals
        to Saducees.
    
        I tend to believe that the conservatives will end up trying to do 
        to God's remnant what the Pharisees did to Christ.  Apostate Chris-
        tianity will lie in bed with them, but I don't think God's true
        followers (in the last days) will lie in bed with either group.
       
        Christ did not seem to have an official agenda for the government.
        Today, the 'Christian right' often seems to pass out political
        literature right in the churches!!!  (That to me is rank
        blasphemy.)
    
        That's the kind of behavior the beast is looking for...that good
        'ol marriage of apostate church and state!!
    
                                                 Tony
        

      Real nice reply Mike.  Some of the practical essence of
      real Christianity.
    
      Thank you.
    
                                               God Bless,
    
                                               Tony

.47 CSLALL::HENDERSON "Learning to lean"

no.  Once I heard the word "atheist" I would say no thanks.  I might ask you
in, and chat.

	Actually, I do the same things with Christians that come calling on me.
	But if I, or others like me, came week after week can you at least 
	understand how it might become annoying?

Christians out sharing the gospel don't have chutzpah, as you call it (though
it certainly is not always easy)..they are simply obeying the Lord Jesus
Christ.

	Justify it as you will, it's still chutzpah in my book :^)

	Out of curiosity how long would you spend with someone like me, who 
	obviously isn't going to be 'saved', but is interested in an honest
	discussion? Most folks out here excuse themselves after about 30 minutes
	of tough questions.

Steve

    Steve,
    
>The above may occur in some places, but I haven't seen it. You also have other
>options than home schooling, such as some very fine parochial education. In my
    
    yes you are correct.  I had forgot about them, and we do have some fine
    Christian schools in this area, but they aren't cheap and have very
    long waiting lists to get in.  My manager teaches physics part-time at
    a local Christian high school.  They have a 2-year waiting list.  I'm
    not the only parent who is disgusted by the degradation of our school
    curriculum, but also the violence and moral code.
    
>modification technique. The theory of evolution does not address God in any way,
>shape or form. It is simply the best theory currently available to explain what
>we see. I know many Christians who feel that it in no way diminishes or
>disproves God, and in fact believe that it is correct.
    
    Even I believe in microevolution to a certain extent.  It's the
    macroevolution that requires you to check your brain at the door.  A
    Christian macroevolutionist is an oxymoron anyway.  Macroevolutionists
    reject God, Christians don't.  The only evolution that has ever taken
    place at this level is the transformation of the believer once they
    accept God as Lord and Savior.

>As are *any* identifiable group at some time or another.
    
    yeah and I suppose any identifiable group also have their Bibles taken
    away, are arrested for having illegal church services, have opposing
    radicals trash/vandalize their church and disrupt church services, are
    hung on crosses to be executed, are beaten and whipped, etc.

>This argument is made by every group I've ever heard (i.e. the media
>misrepresents us). Do you have any proof, other than your own subjective
>observations.
    
    The coverage of Tilton, Bakker and Swaggart.  Benny Hinn's "healing" of
    Evander Holyfield.  And the mockery of the interview with Clinton
    claiming to be a Christian.  The ultimate oxymoron and slap in the face
    of Christianity.  Janet Reno comparing all religious groups to the
    psycho in Waco and saying she'll treat them to same way given the
    chance.  This is only within the last couple years too.

>This is persecution? Then every taxpayer in America is persecuted in this
>manner, as I don't know anyone that agrees with all the places their taxes are
>spent.
    
    Steve, I know you're an atheist, but this goes far beyond a simple
    frustration.  Being a Christian isn't a coat or something I put on in
    the morning and wear all day.  It is part of my very core.  God's
    Spirit is alive and well within me.  God's presence within me is the
    governing essence of the triune nature of man (spirit, mind, body). 
    I've given my Lord and Savior my life.  Being forced to pay taxes on
    issues that are anti-Christ is a violation of my very being.  Not just
    my finances.

>I consider you to be a pain-in-the-neck because of your constant insistence that
>I live according to the rules of your particular superstition, and are willing
    
    Your problem isn't with me, it's with God.  He set the rules.
    
>to force me to comply by law. I don't however, persecute your beliefs.
    
    Now you can understand.  Since you're an atheist, being forced to
    comply by Christian tenets is a violation of your very being.  Paying
    taxes to fund fetal tissue research and murder is a violation of mine.
    
>You are also not a minority in this country, so being considered a pain by the
>less than 10% that disagree with you can't be too hard to deal with.
    
    Wrong again.  You are generalizing just as the media does.  There are
    many people in this country that equate being American to being
    Christian.  There are many people in this country that equate church
    attendance to being a Christian.  These things don't make you any more
    of a Christian than being at an airport making you an airplane.  This
    is a personal inward change, not something you wear on your sleeve. 
    There are a lot less Christians in this country than you realize and
    you'll be able to tell just by watching them and seeing the
    differences.

>Yeah, right. Show me a pattern of how the door to religious freedom is closing
>here. 
    
    For starters, how about the EEOC push to ban religious freedom at work? 
    How about peaceful demonstrations outside of baby slaughterhouses?  How
    about police watching radicals trash and vandalize a church and doing
    nothing about it?  How about implementing home schooling laws to
    control parents who are mostly religious people?  How about
    implementing a National Education Board to dictate school curriculum to
    accelerate the B.F. Skinner course agendas?  How about the new Civil
    Rights of a Child trying to be passed giving to government the right to
    take your child for religious reasons?  How about Janet Reno's verbal 
    attacks on organized religion?  How about the restrictions being put
    into place on religious networks by the FCC?  How about the
    restrictions of putting up a manger scene or any religious symbol on
    your own property?  Do I really need to go on?   I understand your
    position, but that doesn't excuse turning a blind eye to what is going on. 
    
    Even I can see other basic freedoms under attack.  I don't smoke but it
    obvious that freedom is under attack.  We had a prop on a recent ballot
    to double tobacco taxes and ban it in public areas.  I hate smoke, but
    because of what I can see happening I voted against it.  The proposed
    healthcare reform also puts limits on people expressing certain
    freedoms.  People that are overweight or smoke wouldn't be entitled to
    certain benefits.  It is because of these experiments of restricting
    freedoms that it is obvious that religious freedom and freedom of
    speech will be included.  It has already started...

>Your only consolations? Mike, I can only conclude that you have some need to
>feel persecuted, the facts simply do not bear you out.

    You mean the facts as you perceive them. 
    
    Mike

    Tony, if the Sadducees were that liberal they would've believed in
    eternal life. ;-)
    
    They didn't believe in the resurrection so that were Sad U See ;-)

    I appreciate the kind words, Tony and Jim.
    
    thanks,
    Mike

    I like it.
    
    Patricia

>< Note 1013.52 by TINCUP::BITTROLFF "Creator of Buzzword Compliant Systems" >>>


>no.  Once I heard the word "atheist" I would say no thanks.  I might ask you
>in, and chat.

>	Actually, I do the same things with Christians that come calling on me.
>	But if I, or others like me, came week after week can you at least 
>	understand how it might become annoying?


 Frankly there's many other things in this world that annoy me more than 
 someone knocking on my door once in a while.



>Christians out sharing the gospel don't have chutzpah, as you call it (though
>it certainly is not always easy)..they are simply obeying the Lord Jesus
>Christ.


>	Out of curiosity how long would you spend with someone like me, who 
>	obviously isn't going to be 'saved', but is interested in an honest
>	discussion? Most folks out here excuse themselves after about 30 minutes
>	of tough questions.



  We don't go out to try to argue someone into becoming a Christian.  Even if
  we were able to "convince" you without a doubt that God is real and the Bible
  is true, you'd still be lost without acknowledging your sin and accepting 
  Jesus Christ.

  I doubt we'd spend 10 minutes with someone who wanted to argue the Bible
  with us.  Your neighbor just might be waiting for someone to tell them
  about Jesus Christ.



 Jim

	Jim, if I went door to door about gays, would you get upset?

RE:    <<< Note 1013.58 by BIGQ::SILVA "Nobody wants a Charlie in the Box!" >>>



>	Jim, if I went door to door about gays, would you get upset?



  You mean to convert hets?  I didn't think y'all did any recruiting.




Jim

| <<< Note 1013.48 by FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything" >>>


| Actions speak louder than words.  

	Mike, after reading what you wrote, I have to say I am very impressed.
I like the way you carry yourself about religion with others. 

| Not really accurate. I'm nothing on my own. I have nothing to offer people 
| that they would desire in their own lives. I only have Jesus.

	Hmmm..... I agree with this, and can understand that you may not be cut
out at this time to serve God on a larger scale. My question now is, has God
told you this or is it that you do not feel ready yet (if ever)?

| >that Christians aren't all like the Bakkers, etc, I, along with many other gays
| >have gone out in the community and have spoken up when people start off with
| >the stereotypes of Christians. The results have mostly been of the, "I didn't
| >realize that" kind. 

| What I meant to say is how are you serving and representing your Savior and 
| Lord to the lives you come in contact with?

	Same as above. My straight friends also know of my beliefs. We've
discussed them a lot. Again, when being human and showing them the Lord and not
firing Fire and Brimstone seems to get people to listen. I've never understood
why one would preach about burning in the fires of Hell to an unbeliever, like
that would really get one to change, when there is so much good He has done
that would probably catch the listen of far more people.

| I'm sure you will agree with the words of Christ in the Bible and what He 
| commanded us to do.

	Uhhhhh.... that's what I mean.... while I think Christ INSPIRED the
authors to write the Bible, I don't think inspired and inerrant Word of God can
go together. There is another topic in here where I have discussed that in
great depth. I just don't remember what number off the top of my head. 

| Separation of church and state. 

	Mike, if you use things lawmakers have come up with to justify the
church not paying taxes, then you have to abide by the things lawmakers came up
with for where your money will go. Or is this a pick and choose thing?

| As for the poor, many churches have lost the vision of the church's 
| responsibility of those in need.

	That's irrelevant. The end result is the poor pay taxes, the church
does not.


Glen

| <<< Note 1013.59 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Learning to lean" >>>



| >	Jim, if I went door to door about gays, would you get upset?
| You mean to convert hets?  I didn't think y'all did any recruiting.

	Ohhhh.... talk about being blind sided....... I should have seen that
coming..... you know what I mean Jim. If we came to your neighborhood and
knocked on your door and talked about how wrong we are being perceived in this
world, would you or would you not get upset?



Glen

RE:    <<< Note 1013.61 by BIGQ::SILVA "Nobody wants a Charlie in the Box!" >>>
                         -< We don't need to recruit! >-


>	Ohhhh.... talk about being blind sided....... I should have seen that
>coming..... you know what I mean Jim. If we came to your neighborhood and
>knocked on your door and talked about how wrong we are being perceived in this
>world, would you or would you not get upset?




Well, first, we don't knock on doors and talk about how wrong people's percep-
tion are about Christians..We ask them if we can spend a few minutes with them,
chat and get into a surface discussion of spiritual things. Should they say
they are not interested, we thank them and leave.


Now, I don't quite know why you would want to come into my neighborhood to
talk about how wrong people's perceptions are when you have the media 
attempting that very thing, but should you conduct yourselves in a manner in
which we do, and when I say I'm not interested politely excuse yourself, that
would be OK with me.



Jim

>	Hmmm..... I agree with this, and can understand that you may not be cut
>out at this time to serve God on a larger scale. My question now is, has God
>told you this or is it that you do not feel ready yet (if ever)?
    
    It wasn't until earlier this year that I became serious enough about my
    Lord that I was really listening and praying for His will in my life. 
    It is amazing how when you draw closer to God, He draws closer to you. 
    It was then that I realized for the first time His calling on my life. 
    As for a larger scale, I'm sure God will provide the opportunities and
    open the doors as He sees fit.  I do feel that I'm not ready to totally
    fulfill my calling yet, but the Lord is providing ample opportunity for
    me to prepare.  I've seen Him do that in the lives of so many of my
    brothers and sisters in Christ.  We may not always know why we're in
    our current situation, but when you look down the road from where you
    have traveled, you can see Him preparing you the whole way.  I just
    want to be willing to do what He has for me.  We are His vessels.

>firing Fire and Brimstone seems to get people to listen. I've never understood
>why one would preach about burning in the fires of Hell to an unbeliever, like
>that would really get one to change, when there is so much good He has done
>that would probably catch the listen of far more people.
    
    As humans we all yearn to be loved.  God's love and grace is the most
    powerful thing I've ever witnessed.  It is what draws people to Him and
    is what changes lives.  How could you not love someone that paid a debt
    for you that you could never pay?  The more I bask in His love and
    grace, the more incredible it all seems.

>	Mike, if you use things lawmakers have come up with to justify the
>church not paying taxes, then you have to abide by the things lawmakers came up
>with for where your money will go. Or is this a pick and choose thing?
    
    Our forefathers implemented this principle to protect the church, not
    to reject the church.  They came to this country for religious freedom. 
    They wanted this principle in place so that religious freedom can be
    maintained.  We are the ones who have twisted it to kick God out of our
    lives.  The lawmakers today have been weighed in the balance with the 
    lawmakers of this country's birth and God has found them severely
    lacking.  Like the Pharisees and the Torah, today's lawmakers have
    gotten wrapped up in the letter of the Law and have forgotten the
    Spirit and intent of the Law.  This isn't picking and choosing, it's
    going back to the basics of what brought us this far.

>	That's irrelevant. The end result is the poor pay taxes, the church
>does not.

    No it isn't, just another rathole.  If the church fulfilled it's
    calling, there would be less poor and hungry.  I'd dare the Crouch's on
    TBN to have a Beg-A-Thon for feeding the hungry instead of whining for
    more satellites and networks.
    
    Mike

	Mike, interesting stuff. I especially liked how you see the Lord
preparing your path for you. It was enjoyable reading and I do agree with it. I
guess I wanted to see if you were one who just sat back and let the Lord do
everything without you taking any steps, or if you were one who would pray for
guidance, and then went ahead with it all. The latter seems to be the case.
That I am very happy about.

	The part about the forfathers is interesting too. There is a lot about
it I may not agree with, but it is an interesting viewpoint.

	The church is another thing though. You mention if they would do what
they should... well, if you feel they aren't, shouldn't they start paying
taxes? Also, what steps would you take to bring the churches back in line?


Glen

>	The church is another thing though. You mention if they would do what
>they should... well, if you feel they aren't, shouldn't they start paying
>taxes? 
    
    That's a tough call.  I don't think all churches deserved to be taxed
    based on spiritual effectiveness.  How and who would determine that? 
    It seems that how these churches got into this position in the first
    place.  Bigger isn't always better, neither is wealth.
    
    >Also, what steps would you take to bring the churches back in line?
    
    I believe Christ gave the guide Himself in Revelation chapter 2.
    
Revelation 2:2
I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear
them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and
are not, and hast found them liars:

Revelation 2:3
And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and
hast not fainted.

Revelation 2:4
Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first
love.

    Often times, churches forget their first love.  The verse below talks
    of this more, but its first love is loving and serving God.  Nothing
    else matters.  Bigger churches, more programs, more networks, more 
    telethons, etc. aren't the churches first love.
    
Jeremiah 2:2
Go and cry in the ears of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; I remember
thee, the kindness of thy youth, the love of thine espousals, when thou wentest
after me in the wilderness, in a land that was not sown.

    How does the church recapture the flame of its first love?  Jesus
    continues with the solution in the next verse.
    
Revelation 2:5
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first
works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick
out of his place, except thou repent.
    
    The 3 R's: Remember, Repent, and Repeat.  When you keep in mind what
    He has brought you out of, maintain an attitude of prayer, you keep
    your first love alive!
    
    Mike

.53 FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything"

    yeah and I suppose any identifiable group also have their Bibles taken
    away, are arrested for having illegal church services, have opposing
    radicals trash/vandalize their church and disrupt church services, are
    hung on crosses to be executed, are beaten and whipped, etc.

In this country? Recently? I'd be interested in seeing your sources. I would
agree with the vandalism and disruption allegation, but churches are not alone
and Christians have been known to do the same sorts of things with groups they
don't agree (such as clinics). 

    The coverage of Tilton, Bakker and Swaggart.  Benny Hinn's "healing" of
    Evander Holyfield.  And the mockery of the interview with Clinton
    claiming to be a Christian.  The ultimate oxymoron and slap in the face
    of Christianity.  Janet Reno comparing all religious groups to the
    psycho in Waco and saying she'll treat them to same way given the
    chance.  This is only within the last couple years too.

Our local rag has a decidedly conservative slant to it, it depends on the
individual paper. If you get to use your other examples then I get to claim
Bush's comments about atheists, school prayer amendments, in god we trust on our
money, and a slew of other persecutions. This is just the normal give and take
of folks that don't agree on something. You'll get extremists on both sides, and
individually horrendous cases on both sides, but there is no persecution in the
mainstream.

    Being forced to pay taxes on issues that are anti-Christ is a violation of 	
    my very being.  Not just my finances.

Jim, you are suffering from the commonly held Christian illusion that nobody can
hold beliefs as deep as mine. By the way, I am forced to pay taxes to support
churches. In my district large parcels of land are occupied by various
tax-exempt religious organizations. Not only am I taxed to pay for the
infrastructure these buildings require but do not pay for (fire, water, sewer,
roads, etc.) but because this land cannot be occupied by tax paying businesses,
I must make up the property tax deficit for these 'lost' revenues.

    Your problem isn't with me, it's with God.  He set the rules.

But God has chosen to make himself extremely scarce. So I'll talk to his
surrogates.

    Now you can understand.  Since you're an atheist, being forced to
    comply by Christian tenets is a violation of your very being.  Paying
    taxes to fund fetal tissue research and murder is a violation of mine.

I've always understood. And you are making another common mistake regarding
atheists. In many (most?) cases Christian tenets are good for society, I have no
problem abiding by them. I do draw the line at laws that infringe on my freedom
to do things that have no effect on anybody else. There are many laws that I
find abhorent also. If you truly feel this strongly, don't pay the taxes.
(Rathole) I've always felt that we should be able to designate where half of our
taxes go. That way the people would truly decide what kind of government they
wanted, by which projects they funded...

    There are a lot less Christians in this country than you realize and
    you'll be able to tell just by watching them and seeing the
    differences.

O.K., by that definition I would agree. And I might even agree that some
fundamentalists are mildly persecuted, and some cults have suffered major
persecution. But mainstream Christianity, I don't think so.

    For starters, how about the EEOC push to ban religious freedom at work? 

For closers, it did not pass. Funny thing about that, but I saw that rule as
exactly the opposite, and was really worried about it passing because I thought
it would open the door. I was really surprised when the religious folks began
decrying it.

    How about peaceful demonstrations outside of baby slaughterhouses? 

How about emotionally charged language? If the demonstrations had been truly
peaceful and non-intrusive, there wouldn't have been a problem.

    How about police watching radicals trash and vandalize a church and doing
    nothing about it?

As I said, anomolies will occur. This was one.

    How about implementing home schooling laws to control parents who are mostly
    religious people?

How about stealth candidates? To which laws are you referring?

    How about
    implementing a National Education Board to dictate school curriculum to
    accelerate the B.F. Skinner course agendas?  How about the new Civil
    Rights of a Child trying to be passed giving to government the right to
    take your child for religious reasons?

I would be interested in references, I really don't know what you mean.

    How about Janet Reno's verbal attacks on organized religion?

I haven't seem them (my liberal paper must have missed this, or I did). I would
like to see the verbage before I commented. If you can give me an approximate
date I can check this out. 

    How about the restrictions being put into place on religious networks by the
    FCC?

What restrictions?

    How about the
    restrictions of putting up a manger scene or any religious symbol on
    your own property?

My neighborhood looks like a recreation of Bethlehem, for crying out loud.
Again, is this an isolated incident or a nationwide deal?

    Do I really need to go on?   I understand your
    position, but that doesn't excuse turning a blind eye to what is going on. 

Yes, until you prove your point. Jim, I agree that there will be isolated
incidents on both sides. And I would agree that the more radical your position
on any controversial subject the more likely you are to be a target for your
counterparts on the other side of the fence. But you still haven't shown me a
coordinated national attempt to abridge your freedoms. If you can show me that,
btw, I will be by your side in your attempt to stop them.

    Even I can see other basic freedoms under attack.

I agree. The RICO laws used in the war against drugs are among the biggest
offenders.

    You mean the facts as you perceive them. 

Facts is facts. Conclusions are perceptions.

Steve

.63 FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything"

    Our forefathers implemented this principle to protect the church, not
    to reject the church. 

Close. They implemented this principle to protect PEOPLE, whatever their
religious beliefs. 

    They wanted this principle in place so that religious freedom can be
    maintained. We are the ones who have twisted it to kick God out of our
    lives.

True. But how has it been twisted to kick God out of your life? It seems to me
that God is very much IN your life. God is an individual decision for everyone,
seperation of church and state means that you are free to make that decision,
and the state must be very careful not to affect that decision.

Steve

 

 RE .66


 That' s mike you're talking to, not Jim, FWIW




Jim

>Our local rag has a decidedly conservative slant to it, it depends on the
>individual paper. If you get to use your other examples then I get to claim
>Bush's comments about atheists, school prayer amendments, in god we trust on our
>money, and a slew of other persecutions. This is just the normal give and take
>of folks that don't agree on something. You'll get extremists on both sides, and
>individually horrendous cases on both sides, but there is no persecution in the
>mainstream.
    
    Well Steve, your side must be winning.  My sister-in-law was the
    valedictorian at her graduation last year and was strictly told by her
    principal not to open with a prayer for fear of litigation.  This
    happens at schools all over the country.  Those that have the courage
    to go through with it lose their jobs.  It wasn't that long ago where
    every graduation opened with a guest minister praying.  Now it's rare.
    
    There's a case going on right now in St. Louis with a student who was
    placed in detention for praying over his food before eating his lunch.  
    It's a shame when a child can't even say grace over his own meal.
    
>(Rathole) I've always felt that we should be able to designate where half of our
>taxes go. That way the people would truly decide what kind of government they
>wanted, by which projects they funded...
    
    I would *LOVE* to see this happen.  I have that freedom at church where
    I can designate where my tithe goes (general fund, foreign missions,
    prison ministry, food bank for homeless and church needy, even
    sponsoring a young student in Bible college) and what percentage.  I
    *DARE* the government to give me that kind of freedom.  You would
    quickly see things like fetal tissue research, Planned Parenthood
    support, and National Endowment of the Arts die off.
    
�    How about implementing home schooling laws to control parents who are mostly
�    religious people?
�
�How about stealth candidates? To which laws are you referring?
    
    HR-6.  It was defeated once this session, then they brought it back and
    slipped it through on the last day of the session when nobody knew it
    would see the floor again.
    
�    How about
�    implementing a National Education Board to dictate school curriculum to
�    accelerate the B.F. Skinner course agendas?  
    
    Outcome Based Education (OBE).
    
    �How about the new Civil
�    Rights of a Child trying to be passed giving to government the right to
�    take your child for religious reasons?
�I would be interested in references, I really don't know what you mean.
    
    Children's Civil Rights as sponsored and in legislative process by the
    United Nations - the new one-world government.  I have the bill number
    at home.
    
�    How about Janet Reno's verbal attacks on organized religion?
�
�I haven't seem them (my liberal paper must have missed this, or I did). I would
�like to see the verbage before I commented. If you can give me an approximate
�date I can check this out. 
    
    Happened during and after the Waco disaster.  Talk about persecution!
    
    �How about the restrictions being put into place on religious networks by the
�    FCC?
�
�What restrictions?
    
    It's the "truth in broadcasting" legislation being tossed about by
    Clinton to shut up the folks like Limbaugh, Buchanan, and the religious
    networks.
    
�    How about the
�    restrictions of putting up a manger scene or any religious symbol on
�    your own property?
�
�My neighborhood looks like a recreation of Bethlehem, for crying out loud.
�Again, is this an isolated incident or a nationwide deal?
    
    Happens on an annual basis with the ACLU running around.  I'm surprised
    you've never had such a case locally.
    
    Mike

�    They wanted this principle in place so that religious freedom can be
�    maintained. We are the ones who have twisted it to kick God out of our
�    lives.
�
�True. But how has it been twisted to kick God out of your life? It seems to me
�that God is very much IN your life. God is an individual decision for everyone,
    
    I was referring to our fine country in general terms.  You know, the
    one that's *almost* a free country.
    
�seperation of church and state means that you are free to make that decision,
�and the state must be very careful not to affect that decision.
    
    Agreed, but they're doing a lousy job of not affecting.
    
    Mike

.68

Oops! That's what happens when I start answering too many at once! My apologies
to you both.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.69/.70 FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything"

    Well Steve, your side must be winning.  My sister-in-law was the
    valedictorian at her graduation last year and was strictly told by her
    principal not to open with a prayer for fear of litigation.  This
    happens at schools all over the country.  Those that have the courage
    to go through with it lose their jobs.  It wasn't that long ago where
    every graduation opened with a guest minister praying.  Now it's rare.

Man, I really hate breaking this down into 'sides'. I don't want to 'win', I
just want to be able to practice what I believe, as long as it doesn't hurt
anyone else. Too much to ask? I agree that a prayer at a semi-mandatory school
gathering is inappropriate. Why is being able to broadcast a prayer at a state
run function such a big deal to you? Are you really going to hell if you don't?
I just don't get this. I also agree that dentention for a private prayer over
lunch is not cause for detention. Was this a silent prayer to thank God, or a
loud prayer that other students could not avoid to make a point?

    HR-6.  It was defeated once this session, then they brought it back and
    slipped it through on the last day of the session when nobody knew it
    would see the floor again.

What is HR-6? If it was snuck through it will probably be killed later. Did it
make it through the Senate, also?

    Outcome Based Education (OBE).

Ignorance admittal time. What is OBE? I hear the term, but have never seen it
defined.

    Happened during and after the Waco disaster.  Talk about persecution!

I agree. Waco was shameful. I don't remember her comments being particularly
acerbic, but you would be closer to that than I. I remember Bush saying that
atheists should be considered neither patriots nor citizens and you probably
don't :^)

    It's the "truth in broadcasting" legislation being tossed about by
    Clinton to shut up the folks like Limbaugh, Buchanan, and the religious
    networks.

I haven't seen it. Proposed legislation, while worrisome, is not persecution.
Only if passed is it a problem.

    Happens on an annual basis with the ACLU running around.  I'm surprised
    you've never had such a case locally.

The only cases I know of the ACLU taking up are for creches on public grounds.
Can you reference a case where they went after someone on there own property?

    Agreed, but they're doing a lousy job of not affecting.

Ya know, it occurs to me that if you and I both feel like we're losing ground,
maybe the line they're walking isn't so far off after all.

Steve (or you can call me Fred :^}

re Note 1013.71 by TINCUP::BITTROLFF:

> What is HR-6? If it was snuck through it will probably be killed later. Did it
> make it through the Senate, also?
> 
>     Outcome Based Education (OBE).
> 
> Ignorance admittal time. What is OBE? I hear the term, but have never seen it
> defined.

        I've read entire newsletters by persons as reputable as James
        Dobson who decry OBE without ever defining it.

        (It reminds me of the old joke in which a minister comes into
        a prison and is surprised to see people in the mess hall
        shouting out numbers followed by laughter.  He asks about
        this and is told that the inmates are so familiar with the
        same jokes going around and around that they all have
        numbers, and an inmate can tell a joke just by shouting out
        the number.  It seems like that with today's conservative
        causes -- just shout out "OBE" and you can get votes,
        donations, whatever.)

        By the way, the U.S. Congress has gopher servers for both the
        House and the Senate (it will be interesting to see if the
        budget cuts affect them), and you can pull the text of HR-6. 

        I have.

        Bob

    Also see new topic 1015 "What's so sinister about OBE?"
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

Bob,

How do I get to this server?

Thanks, Steve

re Note 1013.74 by TINCUP::BITTROLFF:

> How do I get to this server?
  
        gopher://ftp.senate.gov/

        gopher://gopher.house.gov/

        Bob

	Mike, thanks for the reply. I think you've got the church thing pegged
correctly. It's too bad we don't have anyone out there in the forfront spreading
that message.


Glen

      Hi Everybody,
    
        I echo Mike's replies regarding the gradual lessening of
        our rights.  Its getting really bad.
    
        It might get to the point where one will find it very hard 
        or impossible to homeschool their own children.  The govern-
        ment is getting so intrusive.
    
        I have come to believe that Waco and the Randy Weaver incidents
        are 'test runs.'  Sort of like, "Lets see how much we can get 
        away with and lets see the public response to it."
    
        In soapbox, there have been various topics on new world order and
        things like that that hev discussed some of the weird things that
        are going on.
    
        I think this planet is winding down, nearing its end.  But, God
        still needs a sealed people and that will require their willingness
        to allow God to work in them.
    
                                                     Tony

| <<< Note 1013.77 by STRATA::BARBIERI "God cares." >>>


| It might get to the point where one will find it very hard or impossible to 
| homeschool their own children.  The government is getting so intrusive.

	But Tony! In 23 days the glorious Repulican's will be in power! The
intrusiveness is supposed to stop!!!!  :-)



Glen

.77

>        I echo Mike's replies regarding the gradual lessening of
>        our rights.  Its getting really bad.

Who is "our"?
        
>        In soapbox,

Please, spare us.

>        I think this planet is winding down, nearing its end.

Not exactly a conjecture that's been flawless for the past more than 2000
years, Tony.  I'm not holding my breath.

Shalom,
Richard

�>        I think this planet is winding down, nearing its end.
�
�Not exactly a conjecture that's been flawless for the past more than 2000
�years, Tony.  I'm not holding my breath.
    
    Probably because people didn't understand the entire scenario and what
    had to happen first.
    
    Mike

    .80
    
    Are you saying we've got it right where they didn't in the past?
    
    Seems like I've heard this somewhere before, too!
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    yes I believe so, though you won't see me setting a date since that is
    unscriptural.  The point where people dropped the ball in previous eras
    all hinged on Israel.  Israel didn't become a nation until 1948.  This
    was the first thing that had to happen before anything else could.
    
    Mike

    From Paul Hill and Jeffery Dahmer to the reinstitution of the state of
    Israel in 82 replies.  Whoa!
    
    :-)
    
    Richard
    

      Hi Richard,
    
        By "our", I meant everybody.
    
        I don't echo Mike's reply about us knowing all the truth and
        I'm not implying to you Mike that you fully meant that either!!
        ;-)
    
        I take 1 Corin 8:2 VERY seriously!
        If any man thinks he knows anything, he knows nothing as he ought
        to know it.
    
        I think things are winding down, but part of my own apocalyptic
        beliefs is that God needs to perfect the last generation of His
        faithful and that this work does require our willingness to be
        so used by Him.  In other words, He doesn't just sit back setting
        a watch, we can delay the end (I believe).
    
        Anyway, I suggest that in the near future, a group will rise on
        the scene that will reflect the righteoussness of Christ.  They
        will bare a gospel message considered heretical to 'traditional
        Protestant thought' and will be considered scum.
    
        I believe they will experience the end result of the inward 
        experience of justification by faith - character perfection while
        the world will experience justification by works masquerading
        as J by F.
    
        A unique external characteristic of God's very last day people 
        will be 7th-day Sabbath keeping.  This will be a unique last day
        external characteristic of those experiencing J by F.
    
        A unique characteristic of the world's very last day people
        will be resting on the 1st day.  This will be a unique last day
        external characteristic of those experiencing J by W (works).
    
        Isaiah 4:1-4 is a good read describing some of what will go on.
    
        One external I am looking for is a push for a national and also
        a world Sunday law.  Politics marrying apostate Christianity and
        legislating 1st day rest.
    
        Maybe you've heard it here first!!
    
                                                      Tony
                                          

    Nice bias you have there, Tony ;-)
    
    Your portrayal of the Bride of Christ doesn't fit the typology in
    Genesis 24.