| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 999.1 | Mike would have liked it | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Okeley-dokeley, Neighbor! | Wed Nov 30 1994 00:33 | 6 |
| I think Mike would be amused by the idea that the topic bearing his
name becomes 666 when turned upside-down.
Shalom,
Richard
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| 999.2 | | GRIM::MESSENGER | Bob Messenger | Sat Feb 11 1995 14:23 | 19 |
| Re: 960.245 Joe Oppelt
> You and others such as your sainted Mike Valenza (author of such
> Christian Perspectives as topic 237) whose absence is frequently
> bemoaned in here, were the source of inspiration behind 960.2.
Your note reminded me that no one has yet been nominated for the Mike
Valenza Award for noting excellence. Is there really no one left to carry
the banner that Saint Mike held up so well when he was incarnate with us
here in C-P.
As an inspiration to those of us who are Mike wannabes, I've decided to
post some of Mike's best notes as replies to this topic. Let his saintly
tradition continue!
By the way, Joe, thanks for bringing back such happy memories, but I must
warn you: thou shalt not take the name of our Saint in vain.
-- Bob
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| 999.3 | Saint Mike on debating style | GRIM::MESSENGER | Bob Messenger | Sat Feb 11 1995 14:25 | 38 |
| <<< LGP30::DKA300:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN-PERSPECTIVE.NOTE;2 >>>
-< Discussions from a Christian Perspective >-
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Note 9.218 The Processing Topic 218 of 1816
DEMING::VALENZA "Being and notingness." 32 lines 16-JUL-1992 16:00
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This issue has popped up here from time to time, but it is worth
repeating that not everyone who participates in this or other notes
files is necessarily interested in debating.
Debating has its place in the world, and for those who enjoy doing it I
say more power to them. But notes conferences are loosely structured
forums for discussion, with few formal rules or procedures governing
what gets said. It thus leaves a lot of room for different styles of
discussion, and people often have clashing motives or agendas implicit
in their noting style. I think there is often a macho ethic in notes
surrounding the alleged superiority of "debates" versus informal
discussion; it often attempts to shame or bait people into playing the
game by one's own rules. This often drives people away from notes
files (including this one).
Debates have winners and losers. Consensus and reconciliation are
irrelevant in debates. Full exploration of the consequences of a world
view or a belief system are discouraged when every step along the way
is derailed. Debates express a "me vs. you" mentality. Debates
encourage endless back and forth wrangling as each party tries to get
in the last word. There is nothing wrong with sharing one's feelings
or perspective on an issue without having to back every single
statement with a citation gleaned from the local public library, and
there is nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree. There is nothing
wrong with starting from an assumption not universally shared by all,
and then expanding on that assumption, without allowing the discussion
to be derailed by the insistence of others that one must justify and
explain to their satisfaction each detail of that assumption. The need
to argue each every point may satisfy some people, but for others it is
a pointless and time-wasting exercise in futility.
-- Mike
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| 999.4 | Saint Mike on agreeing to disagree | GRIM::MESSENGER | Bob Messenger | Sat Feb 11 1995 14:26 | 28 |
| <<< LGP30::DKA300:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN-PERSPECTIVE.NOTE;2 >>>
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Note 9.246 The Processing Topic 246 of 1816
DEMING::VALENZA "Being and notingness." 22 lines 21-JUL-1992 11:15
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Gee, Collis, do you mean to say that what you write isn't your opinion?
So much for my attempt at trying to summarize both sides of the issue
as a way of "agreeing to disagree". I forgot who I was dealing
with--someone who doesn't believe in agreeing to disagree, and who will
let no stone unturned as long as there is anyone with a different
opinion than his own. Let's just continue this discussion endlessly,
shall we?
When you repeatedly write the same types of notes, well then,
maybe--just maybe--they will get the same kinds of responses. And when
you get the same kind of response to various instances of a particular
type of note you then call that response a "strategy". The question
is, of course, who is continually writing those notes that evoke the
response in the first place? Perhaps that is what we should be looking
at when we talk of "strategies."
Now that we've settled that issue, perhaps we can return to the more
important issues at hand, the ones that really matter, like "why my
religion is great and your religion sucks."
-- Mike
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| 999.5 | Saint Mike on Christian apologists | GRIM::MESSENGER | Bob Messenger | Sat Feb 11 1995 14:29 | 37 |
| <<< LGP30::DKA300:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN-PERSPECTIVE.NOTE;2 >>>
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Note 27.77 Apparent errors in the Bible 77 of 137
DEMING::VALENZA "Too thick to staple." 31 lines 22-AUG-1991 10:23
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I like to think of these "explanations" of the errors in the Bible as a
testimony to the power of human imagination and creativity. When the
apologist invents creative explanations about what "must" have happened
in addition to what was not contained in the text, just so as to
support a dogma about what *is* contained within the text, we have a
perfect demonstration of of human creativity (not to mention dogmatism)
at its fullest. It's sort of like those Ptomelian epicycles that
Copernicus overturned. 'Tis better to invent fanciful explanations
than to let a belief system collapse under the weight of its own
inconsistencies. This is true even when the inventions themselves
would seem to contradict the very dogma in question, namely that the
Received Truth is wholly and completely contained within the very
document that is being justified.
Of course, we are told that those inventive, extra-Biblical
explanations of what "must" have happened (in order to make what is
found in the Bible inerrant) in no way constitute an example of human
interpretation of the Bible. No way, Jose! That would mean
*admitting* the embarrassing proposition that *all* Christians, not just
the ones who the apologist happens to disagree with, practice biblical
interpretation in one form of another. This is a dangerous notion,
because as we all know, the difference between ordinary and faulty
human interpretation (which is to be condemned vigorously) and the
inerrant expression of God's clearly defined Word (which is utterly and
wholly True) is that the person doing the speaking expresses God's
word, while anyone who disagrees is imposing an "interpretation".
And if the power of human reason produces an answer that we don't like,
we just chuck reason and proclaim ignorance as a virtue, 'cause that's
God's will. Yeah, that's the ticket.
-- Mike
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| 999.6 | Saint Mike on the birth of Jesus | GRIM::MESSENGER | Bob Messenger | Sat Feb 11 1995 14:31 | 41 |
| <<< LGP30::DKA300:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN-PERSPECTIVE.NOTE;2 >>>
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Note 27.113 Apparent errors in the Bible 113 of 137
JURAN::VALENZA "Life's good, but not fair at all." 35 lines 8-APR-1992 10:19
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Here's the way I figure it.
Joseph and Mary left their home in Nazareth and visited Bethlehem. They
didn't have a place to stay, because all the inns were full. This was
a problem, because God was inducing Mary to feel labor pains, having
impregnated her with His holy sperm a full nine months earlier. Mary
gave birth that night. The next day, Joseph went shopping to take
advantage of the after-Christmas sales, decided that he liked the
place, and said, "Honey, let's buy a summer cottage in Bethlehem."
Mary said, "You're a carpenter, Joe; why don't you just build it?" And
Joe said, "I can't do that, I have a thriving business in Nazareth to
take care of."
After they circumcised their bouncing baby boy, they went back to
Nazareth to live. It was a normal family in virtually every way,
except for the fact that every time Mary tried to give Jesus a bath he
would crawl on the bath water. A year later, for Jesus's birthday, they
decided to take a vacation in Bethlehem. They went to their vacation
cottage for the first time. Meanwhile, the wise men, who had been
traveling all this time, finally arrived in town, having followed a
mysterious star that had been hanging over the city for the past year.
When they got to town, the star hovered ever lower until it plopped
itself right above Joe and Mary's summer cottage. As you might
imagine, this was a tiny star, as stars go; its thermonuclear reactions
were under careful divine control, and in size it was nowhere near the
size of, say, Antares or Betelgeuse (if it had been that big, it would
have burned Jesus to a crisp, thus ruining the whole point of his being
born in the first place.)
After that, things proceeded more or less normally for the family,
except for the occasional awe-inspiring feat of theological wisdom
expressed by the adolescent Jesus. Then Jesus turned 30, and things
really got interesting. But that's another story.
-- Mike
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| 999.7 | Saint Mike on the innocence of children | GRIM::MESSENGER | Bob Messenger | Sat Feb 11 1995 14:33 | 51 |
| <<< LGP30::DKA300:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN-PERSPECTIVE.NOTE;2 >>>
-< Discussions from a Christian Perspective >-
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Note 31.322 Abortion Discussion & Debate Note 322 of 787
DEMING::VALENZA "Glasnote." 45 lines 6-SEP-1991 15:36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I inadvertently deleted 30.318 (which I wrote), but I'll not try to
exactly reconstruct it.
However, I think that Pete has identified an interesting aspect of the
question of innocence. The question has become not "when does life
begin?", but "when does innocence end?"
This is an important question, and it could be crucial. For example,
suppose God sends down instructions for all God-fearing Christians to
mow down all the people who live in a nearby hamlet, much as he ordered
the His people to do against Jericho and Ai. Now I would want to be
very careful about how I implement these orders. Does innocence end at
eight months after conception? One month after birth? I mean, suppose
I am in Jericho, and I cut off a baby's head. There it is, sitting in
front of me, blood gushing everywhere, the mother crying hysterically
and screaming about my having killed her child, and I am feeling proud
of myself for having carried out God's will. All is well, because I
assume that the baby is guilty anyway. Then, much to my horror, I
discover that the baby is too young to be guilty! How terrible! God
will really be p-oed!
As we can see, even a few minutes one way or another can be crucial. If
I wait until the magic cutoff point it would then be acceptable, but if
I kill a baby or a fetus that is too young, I will have committed a
terrible sin.
Since we can assume that God is good, and would never order people to
slaughter innocent people, we can engage in some creative biblical
interpretation (an important tool in explaining away any problems that
might arise from a doctrine of biblical inerrancy) and assume that no
women in Jericho and Ai were pregnant and thus carrying any innocent
fetuses. Furthermore, we can assume that any children who were
slaughtered were older than the magic guilt cutoff point.
Perhaps what we need is a theologically certain timeline so that we can
know when it is safe to kill babies. For example:
o------------------------------0------------------------------o
Conception Birth 8 months
(Living, Innocent) (Living, ?) (Living,Guilty)
Somewhere on that timeline, a baby crosses over from innocent to
guilty, and is thus eligible for being killed if God tells me to.
-- Mike
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| 999.8 | ! | LGP30::FLEISCHER | without vision the people perish (DTN 297-5780, MRO3-3/L16) | Sun Feb 12 1995 20:34 | 5 |
| Wow, I had forgotten how good Mike could be, especially Note
27.77, which so excellently expresses what I so often
struggle to convey.
Bob
|
| 999.9 | Remember Gertrude | POWDML::FLANAGAN | I feel therefore I am | Mon Feb 13 1995 10:03 | 120 |
| I honor Mike for the Gertrude topic!!
<<< LGP30::DKA300:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN-PERSPECTIVE.NOTE;2 >>>
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Note 579.0 Gertrude's topic 13 replies
JURAN::VALENZA "Cow patterned noter." 4 lines 31-DEC-1992 12:51
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This topic is devoted to the thoughts, teachings, and words of widsom
from Gertrude.
-- Mike
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Note 579.1 Gertrude's topic 1 of 13
JURAN::VALENZA "Cow patterned noter." 3 lines 31-DEC-1992 12:51
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Gertrude tells me to wish everyone a happy holiday.
-- Mike
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Note 579.2 Gertrude's topic 2 of 13
SPARKL::BROOKS "modified radical feminist" 5 lines 31-DEC-1992 12:53
-< just when I'm eating my Dannon ... >-
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Yo Gert!
;-)
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Note 579.3 Gertrude's topic 3 of 13
CSC32::J_CHRISTIE "Peace Warrior" 10 lines 31-DEC-1992 15:01
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Mike V,
Has anyone ever told you that you have a sense of humor that
would rival The Far Side?
Box o' Nabiscos,
Richard
["Box o' Nabiscos" comes from a time I said, "Pax vobiscum," and Mike
misunderstood. RJC]
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Note 579.4 Gertrude's topic 4 of 13
DEMING::VALENZA "Cow patterned noter." 3 lines 31-DEC-1992 16:52
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No Richard, no one has told me that, but thank you. :-)
Box o' Nabiscos
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Note 579.5 Gertrude's topic 5 of 13
JURAN::VALENZA "Cow patterned noter." 6 lines 5-JAN-1993 20:43
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Gertrude winked at me today.
That's all I had to pass along about Gertrude. Just that she winked.
More later.
-- Mike
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Note 579.6 Gertrude's topic 6 of 13
SPARKL::BROOKS "dreaming in Neolithic" 4 lines 6-JAN-1993 08:29
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Would you ask her if she's in possession of the real Gertruth?
Dorian
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Note 579.7 Gertrude's topic 7 of 13
JURAN::VALENZA "Cow patterned noter." 4 lines 6-JAN-1993 08:51
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Gertrude laughed when I asked her that. She has a great sense of
humor.
-- Mike
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Note 579.8 Gertrude's topic 8 of 13
JURAN::VALENZA "Cow patterned noter." 3 lines 6-JAN-1993 16:24
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Every time the wind blows, I hear Gertrude sighing.
-- Mike
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Note 579.9 Gertrude's topic 9 of 13
BSS::VANFLEET "Repeal #2" 7 lines 7-JAN-1993 13:34
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I don't know, Mike. I always thought that the wind sighing was called
Mariah. Maybe I'm getting my deities confused, or could Gertrude
and Mariah be different names for the same thing? ;-)
Nanci
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Note 579.10 Gertrude's topic 10 of 13
JURAN::VALENZA "Cow patterned noter." 6 lines 7-JAN-1993 13:58
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Maybe Mariah is just one manifestation of Gertrude. :-)
(I don't think she would consider the existence of Mariah to be any
sort of Gertrusion on her role in the world.) :-)
-- Mike
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Note 579.12 Gertrude's topic 12 of 13
JURAN::VALENZA "Cow patterned noter." 4 lines 8-JAN-1993 14:52
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Gertrude has much to say. I just ain't telling you everything she
tells me. :-)
-- Mike
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Note 579.13 Gertrude's topic 13 of 13
SPARKL::BROOKS "dreaming in Neolithic" 2 lines 8-JAN-1993 15:59
-< tho' it's probably mooot. >-
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Well, I'm cowed..
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