Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    
    
     Richard,
    
      I am not certain if your note here is in response to the discussion
    on AA or not. So if I am incorrect I apologizer in advance.
    
    > when compassionate response demnands a redistribution of wealth
    
     You can redistribute wealth, the new result will be what happened
    in the U.S.S.R,, you screw everybody over evenly.
    
    > power
    
       You can put someone into a position of power but if it is known that
    they achieved that position not through competition but rather AA then
    it is a straw mans power. It must be earned.
    
    > prestige
    
      See above.
    
    > the temptation to withdraw is overwhelming
    
      No more than the temptation to abort failed social engineering
    efforts like welfare. AA has weakened the soul of those that benefit
    under it, they believe success is directly related to being a victim.
    
    
    David
      

    I appreciate that it is very difficult for comparately affluent, white
    American, Men to realize that others are starving to death and dying 
    precicely because of the unfair distribution of the world's resources.
    
    Amos understood this!
    
    Jesus understood this!
    
    
    These are passages that many of the affluent desire to ignore.
    
    Patricia
    
    
    BTW - Welcome back to active noting.

    Patricia:
    
    You are committing a fallacy here.
    
    Michele and I, along with alot of white males like myself, are
    struggling to make ends meet!!
    
    -Jack

 Re .2


 no generalizations there, eh?


Naaayyhhh                  $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
                      oo$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$o
                   oo$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$o         o$   $$ o$
   o $ oo        o$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$o       $$ $$ $$o$
oo $ $ "$      o$$$$$$$$$    $$$$$$$$$$$$$    $$$$$$$$$o       $$$o$$o$
"$$$$$$o$     o$$$$$$$$$      $$$$$$$$$$$      $$$$$$$$$$o    $$$$$$$$
  $$$$$$$    $$$$$$$$$$$      $$$$$$$$$$$      $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
  $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$    $$$$$$$$$$$$$    $$$$$$$$$$$$$$  """$$$
   "$$$""""$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$     "$$$
    $$$   o$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$     "$$$o
   o$$"   $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$       $$$o
   $$$    $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$" "$$$$$$ooooo$$$$o
  o$$$oooo$$$$$  $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$   o$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
  $$$$$$$$"$$$$   $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$     $$$$""""""""
 """"       $$$$    "$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$"      o$$$
            "$$$o     """$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$"$$"         $$$
              $$$o          "$$""$$$$$$""""           o$$$
               $$$$o                 oo             o$$$"
                "$$$$o      o$$$$$$o"$$$$o        o$$$$
                  "$$$$$oo     ""$$$$o$$$$$o   o$$$$""
                     ""$$$$$oooo  "$$$o$$$$$$$$$"""
                        ""$$$$$$$oo $$$$$$$$$$
                                """"$$$$$$$$$$$
                                    $$$$$$$$$$$$
                                     $$$$$$$$$$"
                                       "$$$""""

    Actually affluent White women are only as little less guilty than
    afluent white men.
    
    It is very hard for persons who have always had their needs met to
    fully realize that the price of them always having their needs met is
    the oppression of others.
    
    Affirmative Action is required precisely because the middle class white
    man precicely because he is a middle class white man has many doors
    automatically open to him.
    
    It is not a matter of who is more qualified.  It is a matter of who
    determines what it means to be qualified.  What are the essential
    characteristics required to be successful and how are they measured.
    
    In many cases those characteristics are exactly those that affluent
    white men have always thought were necessary whether they really are or
    not.
    
    Patricia

      >>  It is very hard for persons who have always had their needs met to
      >>  fully realize that the price of them always having their needs met
      >>  is the oppression of others.
    
    In Russia perhaps.  In East Germany perhaps.
    Patricia, America is a guagmeyer of different people, different
    prejudices...there can be no denying this.  
    
    I would like to challenge you on the statement above by asking you to
    offer some specifics.  I believe the ability of self empowerment exists
    in our country, you-can-be-anything-you-want-to-be.  It has been tested
    and proven.  
    
    Let me give you an example on my perspective.  I work until 8:00 PM
    three nights a week (West coast coverage and all that).  I have made
    good acquaintances with the cleaning folks here in MKO.  Since I do
    know some Spanish, I usually speak to them in their language.  An
    interesting point.  One of the guys I know said something to the effect
    of, "your work is easy...my work is hard...but your paid more"  He said
    it while chuckling...like he wasn't bitter or anything but I believe he
    was telling me what his heart felt.  I responded with a smile and
    stated something to this effect, "Jorge, you are right.  I used to do
    similar work to what you are doing.  If you remember, I mentioned to
    you last November that you can become anything you want to be.  The
    first thing you need to do is get a fluent grasp on the English
    language.  Bilingualism will open a myriad of opportunity for you
    Jorge.  It's there Jorge, now be proactive and do it!!!"
    
    Patricia, Jorge politely chuckled and said...Nawww....  Now Patricia,
    this was HIS CHOICE.  Did you know that only 46% of high school
    students in this country took the SATS?  I'm sorry Patricia, but I
    respectfully disagree with you.  Overall, racism exists, discrimination
    exists, but opportunity is plentiful and available.
    
    -Jack

    Jesus spoke broadly on many occasions.
    
    Even many of those who are just scraping by in the U.S. are living
    royalty when contrasted against a large chunk of the rest of the world's
    population.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    Richard,
    
    I agree with you on this.  Now compare the US to say.....modern Russia.
    Is our prosperity the cause of their oppression?  You see, this is
    where Patricia and I differ.  I believe that in many many cases, a
    persons oppression is self victimized, i.e. they are the cause of their
    own demise!!
    
    -Jack

    Jack,
    
    how about Latin America and South America?
    
    Is the ease of which we live up here a  cause of their oppression?
    
    Do you have what you have because of your own innate goodness or
    because of the grace of God?
    
    Why has God choosen that you have what you have and the maintenance
    person has what he has?
    
    Do you really think it is as easy for a poor minority student in
    Roxbury to get into college as it is for a middle class student from
    Acton, Westford, Hollis, etc?
    
    Do you think it is as easy for that student to find positive role
    models?  To learn how to study and learn?  To have the environment
    conducive to success in school and college.
    
    How about the poor student born in Mexico, Puerto Rico, Haito, or Cuba?
    
    Do you really think the student attending Lawrence High School has the
    same opportunities as the student attending Acton-Boxboro High School?
    
    It is too easy for those who have attended suburban High Schools,
    Colleges, and been brought up in academicially oriented homes to feel
    superior to those who never had those advantages.
    
    Are the gifts we have the results of our own "good work" or are they
    the result of God's Grace?
    
    If they are the result of God's Grace, then what is our responsibility
    toward our Brothers and Sisters?
    
    Patricia

    Yeah, it's the old Goldwaterism: when people are poor, it's usually
    their own fault.
    
    Richard
    

| <<< Note 972.3 by AIMHI::JMARTIN >>>

| You are committing a fallacy here. Michele and I, along with alot of white 
| males like myself, are struggling to make ends meet!!

	Gee jack, seems to me that you do own property, and that you are a
landlord. Is it one house or more that you own Jack? How many cars do you own
Jack? Are you really struggling or just that you have put more on your plate
than you can handle? Remember, there are many who live in rat infested houses,
which I am sure you don't. They have to walk around because they can't afford a
car. But it appears that you can. So are you really struggling because you have
nothing, or because ya got too much?



Glen

	jack, they should get a grasp on the english language and this will
change everything? Why not try and get a job where his talents are more useful?
Reminds me of something I used to think, "If you live in America, you should
speak English!" 

 That's right, Jack..these days you have to apologize for being successful
 and planning for the future!



Jim

| <<< Note 972.17 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "I'm the traveller, He's the Way" >>>



| That's right, Jack..these days you have to apologize for being successful
| and planning for the future!


	Jim, you amaze me. The man is complaining about struggling, yet he has
so many things. If he wants to see struggling, have him go live in a rat
infested house. Hell, last night I heard on the news 2 teens got shot walking
home from the store, right outside their home. But Jack is struggling....

    
Glen, responses coming soon!!
    
Dear Patricia:
    
>>    how about Latin America and South America?
    
>>    Is the ease of which we live up here a  cause of their oppression?
  
>>    Do you have what you have because of your own innate goodness or
>>    because of the grace of God?
  
The answer is rhetorical..because of the grace of God.  But I'm still at a loss
as to why my comfort here is causing...say...the Cuban's society oppression 
down there.
  
>>    Why has God choosen that you have what you have and the maintenance
>>    person has what he has?
  
Therein lies the million dollar question.  Keep in mind, however, that the
maintenance person made a statement, I followed with a solution, he 
respectfully declined.  I do not cut down the maintenance person for his
personal ambitions...for all I know, he may own the company and be a 
millionaire next year.  But...bottom line is that the opportunity exists.
  
>>    Do you really think it is as easy for a poor minority student in
>>    Roxbury to get into college as it is for a middle class student from
>>    Acton, Westford, Hollis, etc?
  
Patricia, I am a strong proponent of excellence in schools.  The answer is 
yes..PROVIDED...the student is on the same playing field as far as quality
of schools, teachers and environment.  But I would say most likely not because
statistically, an inner city student will most likely live in a semi violent 
environment, not have the best role models and probably be from a broken home.
Statistically, a child from a broken home is MOST LIKELY to drop out of
school.   
  
>>    Do you think it is as easy for that student to find positive role
>>    models?  To learn how to study and learn?  To have the environment
>>    conducive to success in school and college.
  
See above.  I do contend however, that it has been successfully done and can 
be done!
  
>>    How about the poor student born in Mexico, Puerto Rico, Haito, or Cuba?
  
Probably worse chance.
  
>>    Do you really think the student attending Lawrence High School has the
>>    same opportunities as the student attending Acton-Boxboro High School?
  
Yes, I do...but I believe this student would have extra baggage to deal with.
  
>>    It is too easy for those who have attended suburban High Schools,
>>    Colleges, and been brought up in academicially oriented homes to feel
>>    superior to those who never had those advantages.
  
This may be true.  Just so you will know, I almost flunked out of college via
sheer lack of interest.  I did get an Associates then went back to Westfield 
State College to get a bachelors...getting it by the skin of my nose.  
Patricia, believe me...I know that opportunity and drive are two different 
things.  By all intents and purposes, I should never have finished but I 
knew...I knew in my heart that it was necessary for me personally to finish.
  
>>    Are the gifts we have the results of our own "good work" or are they
>>    the result of God's Grace?
  
God's grace!
  
>>    If they are the result of God's Grace, then what is our responsibility
>>    toward our Brothers and Sisters?
  
Our responsibility is to bring our bro's and sisters up, to help them achieve
excellence.  This can be done in many ways, through education, through role 
modeling, through example.

Patricia, you have brought up some very sobering and interesting points.  But
what you havem't communicated is how my success leads to somebody elses 
oppression.  I think I have adequately pointed out that regardless of stature,
(unless you're Ted Kennedy), competence (Unless you're Ted Kennedy), 
or ethnic background...regardless of an uneven playing field, you can leave
what one might call oppression.  The only thing I can summize from what you 
have been stating is that in order for others not to be oppressed, then others
who are successful must be brought down in order to achieve parity between
the successful and the oppressed. 

-Jack

      Jim,
    
        Why don't you be fair?
    
        The link Glen is making is that Jack claims to be struggling
        and Glen (perhaps) has an entirely different view of what it
        really means to struggle.  He shares that view with Jack (in
        part emotionally) because maybe _he_ knows some people who 
        really do struggle in a way that we cannot really fathom.
    
        Now, I'm not a genius, but I am capable of simple rational 
        thought.  I would hazard to guess that Glen's mention of people
        being shot at near home is meant to portray the reality that this
        was an environment within which REAL (as Glen means it) struggling
        exists.
    
        As a single example, things can be so bad that you can even be
        shot by your own home.  Glen is using being shot to contrast
        what he sees as Jack's personal ideas of what it means to
        struggle with what he (Glen) sees as a more sobering reality
        of what real struggling entails.
    
        Jim, even if you disagree, can't you discern the heart and that
        a chord has been struck with Glen?
    
                                                      Tony

 My apologies...I misread Glen's note.


 Glen, I am sorry for my misunderstanding of your note...



I'll delete my reply.



 Jim

 Original .19 deleted by author





Jim

	Thanks Tony. I appreciate what you wrote. One thing I'd like to add to
that is in the 2 kids position, it was a situation they had no choices in, and
in Jack's, he had choices he made. 

	I had origionally responded to Jim's note, but after seeing he deleted
it, I deleted my entry. Jim, no reason to apologize. To misunderstand something
is not bad in this case as you asked a question to help clear up the
misunderstanding. But Tony beat me to it!! :-)


Glen

      Hi,
    
       Thanks Glen.
    
       Jim, I'm sorry for if it came accross critically.
    
                                                 Tony

 Well, short fuse today, folks...sorry





Jim

RE: Note 972.15      
BIGQ::SILVA "Memories....."                          16 lines  20-SEP-1994 13:50
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| <<< Note 972.3 by AIMHI::JMARTIN >>>

| You are committing a fallacy here. Michele and I, along with alot of white 
| males like myself, are struggling to make ends meet!!

>>	Gee jack, seems to me that you do own property, and that you are a
>>landlord. Is it one house or more that you own Jack? How many cars do you own
>>Jack? 
>>Are you really struggling or just that you have put more on your plate
>>than you can handle? Remember, there are many who live in rat infested houses,
>>which I am sure you don't. They have to walk around because they can't afford a
>>car. But it appears that you can. So are you really struggling because you have
>>nothing, or because ya got too much?

Oh Glen, I must have given the wrong impression.  Did I ever say I had nothing?
Remember when you and I attended the Box bash last year?  When you and I shook 
hands and left I didn't go home.  No Glen, I inundated the beautiful town of
Marlboro with free newspapers.  A tedious job that I finished at 2:00 A.M. the
next morning.  No Glen, I'm not struggling...struggling is a relative term as
I'm sure people in rat infested South Boston buildings are living the life of
Ryan compared to refugees in Somalia.  Let's just say that I am trying to
eulogize this notion that freebees always go to white males who were raised in
suburban republican christian two parent families.  By the way, that carrier 
route I did was open and available for a good 6 weeks.  It helped me put a 
downpayment on that condo I am renting out.  Opportunity Glen....it is out
there!!!
    
>>	jack, they should get a grasp on the english language and this will
>>change everything? Why not try and get a job where his talents are more useful?
>>Reminds me of something I used to think, "If you live in America, you should
>>speak English!" 

    This needs to be addressed!
One things for sure, he will be able to quit Jantech!!
Glen, I am strongly for making English the USA nationally recognized language.
I believe people who refuse to learn the language are cheating themselves of
opportunity in this country.  I interface with customers every day and we are
a US marketing organization.  Glen, the sobering fact is that the group has 
absolutely no use for an individual who speaks Spanish but no English.  The
reps here must have a fluent knowledge of English.  This may not be what you 
like to hear...but there you have it!!!

-Jack
                               

    Jack,
    
    My point is that a very small percent of the world's population have a
    disproportionate share of the worlds resources.  The descrepency is so
    great that all of us who have thousands of times more of the resources
    than others If they are people of faith, have to feel responsible for
    others.
    
    Those of us in White middle class America have benefited from economic
    and industrial policies that have taken resources from underdeveloped
    countries and moved them to the developed world.  The Industrial North
    American have been razing latin and south america for years.  Politics
    and Industry are all tied up.  American Imperialism has oppressed third
    world nations.  I am saying this not to slam our American Political
    System.  I am proud of American Democracy.  But I hold American
    Democracy to the standard of excellence potrayed in the Declaration of
    Independence and the Constitution.
    
    It is a natural tendency for each of us to be more comfortable with
    others who are like us.  As long as we live in a hierarchical society
    and the top of the Hierarchy is dominated by White men, those
    characteristics and strengnths of white men will be deemed more
    important than characteristics and strengths of Persons of Color, men
    and women and White Women.  It is a natural tendency for those on top
    to feel they are on top because of their own self worth and those on
    bottom, just are not trying hard enough.  It frees our conscience of
    the responsibility for others.
    
    If each of us is truly Biblical,  If we heed the words of Jesus and the
    Prophets, we know that God favors the weak and the oppressed and wants
    each of us to help the weak and the oppressed.
    
    Patricia

    Hmmmm, I find it interesting about how American Imperialism is the
    demise of other countries...that may very well be the case.  
    
    I will note however, that government intrusion is now causing alot of
    our industry to go to these smaller countries to manufacture goods.  
    Made in Singapore...Made in Taiwan...Made in Haiti...Made in........
    
    I call to your attention Joseph (son of Jacob).  Joseph prophecied the
    coming of a great famine, seven years long to be exact.  Joseph became 
    second only to Pharoah because he stored grain to last seven years.  He
    kept the world from starving you might say!  Joseph used this knowledge
    for personal gain.  He told all from Egypt that they must give a
    percentage of their land to him to partake of the grain...which they
    did!!  Now, this to me is imperialism...but was it wrong?  God blessed
    Joseph all his days and God used Joseph mightily.  I find his account
    very inspiring.
    
    I would say on the other side of the pendulum the US has pour tons of
    money into developing countries, more than our fair share.
    
    -Jack

| <<< Note 972.26 by AIMHI::JMARTIN >>>



| Oh Glen, I must have given the wrong impression. Did I ever say I had nothing?
| Remember when you and I attended the Box bash last year? When you and I shook
| hands and left I didn't go home. No Glen, I inundated the beautiful town of
| Marlboro with free newspapers. A tedious job that I finished at 2:00 A.M. the
| next morning.

	Jack, why do you feel you're struggling? Is it because of things you
had NO control over or is it because you bit off more than you could chew? If
it is as I suspect, the latter, then you can either work to keep what you have,
what you went out and got on your own, or you can give it back. What of those
that never had a choice to begin with? Like those 2 kids that got shot?

| Let's just say that I am trying to eulogize this notion that freebees always 
| go to white males who were raised in suburban republican christian two parent 
| families.  

	Never heard anyone in here describe it in such detail, Jack. They just
said white males. Why the over dramatization?

| By the way, that carrier route I did was open and available for a good 6 weeks
| It helped me put a downpayment on that condo I am renting out. Opportunity 
| Glen....it is out there!!!

	Jack, it comes down to this. You wanted the condo, you made the choice
and got it using the means God provided you. If you did not go and get the
condo, would you be struggling? Oh, maybe that would be because you possibly
have a car+ and house? Ahhh more choices that you made.... and the kids who got
shot made what choice Jack? Oh yeah... to walk home from the store.

| Glen, I am strongly for making English the USA nationally recognized language.
| I believe people who refuse to learn the language are cheating themselves of
| opportunity in this country.  

	Jack, how do you normally answer this question:

		what nationality are you?



Glen

Re: Note 972.29         
BIGQ::SILVA "Memories....."                          45 lines  20-SEP-1994 15:22

| Oh Glen, I must have given the wrong impression. Did I ever say I had nothing?
| Remember when you and I attended the Box bash last year? When you and I shook
| hands and left I didn't go home. No Glen, I inundated the beautiful town of
| Marlboro with free newspapers. A tedious job that I finished at 2:00 A.M. the
| next morning.

>>	Jack, why do you feel you're struggling? Is it because of things you
>>had NO control over or is it because you bit off more than you could chew? If
>>it is as I suspect, the latter, then you can either work to keep what you have,
>>what you went out and got on your own, or you can give it back. What of those
>>that never had a choice to begin with? Like those 2 kids that got shot?

Glen, everybody in life has a cross to bear.  Some far more than others.  I am
struggling, not because of the condo...that has nothing to do with it.  I have
a positive cash flow from that.  I am struggling because Michele and I decided 
that she was going to stay home with the three children, i.e. I am the sole
income.  I am struggling to save to I can keep my children out of those 
ghastly institutions you want me to support through the establishment.  And
lastly, I now have been blessed with a dependent, depressed, and stubborn 
mother n law that I didn't ask for.  Yes, most of the struggle is due to
choice.  Ya see Glen, this country at present is a land of opportunity.  I 
have faith in people's ability to succeed.  Something the liberal establishment 
seems to lack deeply.  Not all liberals but many of them nonetheless.

| Let's just say that I am trying to eulogize this notion that freebees always 
| go to white males who were raised in suburban republican christian two parent 
| families.  

>>	Never heard anyone in here describe it in such detail, Jack. They just
>>said white males. Why the over dramatization?

Because the media and the government have been attacking religion in general
these days.  Conservative believers are of the radical right.  Listen to 
Elders some time...she'll fill you in.

| By the way, that carrier route I did was open and available for a good 6 weeks
| It helped me put a downpayment on that condo I am renting out. Opportunity 
| Glen....it is out there!!!

>>	Jack, it comes down to this. You wanted the condo, you made the choice
>>and got it using the means God provided you. If you did not go and get the
>>condo, would you be struggling? Oh, maybe that would be because you possibly
>>have a car+ and house? Ahhh more choices that you made.... and the kids who got
>>shot made what choice Jack? Oh yeah... to walk home from the store.

Glen, your comparing apples to oranges.  Violence is alive and well everywhere.
Danny LaPlante brutally raped and killed a woman, then drowned her children in
the bathtub...7 miles from my house.  They captured him in a dumpster right in
my downtown.  
And since you're making me justify this, the condo purchase is nothing more than
prudent.  I do not as of yet have a 401K plan.  I see it as an investment 
since the establishment is robbing me through social security and other plans
that will be gone by the time we're 65.  Yes Glen...all choice.  Everybody
in the US has the self empowerment to be whatever they want.  

| Glen, I am strongly for making English the USA nationally recognized language.
| I believe people who refuse to learn the language are cheating themselves of
| opportunity in this country.  

>>	Jack, how do you normally answer this question:

>>		what nationality are you?

I tell them I'm a mutt. I'm half Irish, half Scottish.  Glen, its personal 
conviction but my heritage doesn't really interest me.  I am an American 
first.  This is paramount.  Just like the Japanese who were kept in detention
camps during WW2.  They were Americans first and it was a crime for our
government to think otherwise.

Learn the English language or your oppootunities are limited....that's the 
fact Glen!!

-Jack

Anybody have the results of the recent Times-Mirror poll?

Shalom,
Richard

| <<< Note 972.30 by AIMHI::JMARTIN >>>



| Glen, everybody in life has a cross to bear.  Some far more than others.  I am
| struggling, not because of the condo...that has nothing to do with it.  I have
| a positive cash flow from that.  I am struggling because Michele and I decided
| that she was going to stay home with the three children, i.e. I am the sole
| income. I am struggling to save to I can keep my children out of those ghastly
| institutions you want me to support through the establishment. And lastly, I 
| now have been blessed with a dependent, depressed, and stubborn mother n law 
| that I didn't ask for. Yes, most of the struggle is due to choice. 

	Exactly. And there are other ways you could work things out as well.
What you fail to see is that not everyone has the same opportunities that you
have Jack. People will turn them away for their color, some because they don't
trust them because of where they live, some because of their gender, and the
list goes on. While this is a land of opportunity, how many times have you gone
for just one of these part time jobs where it took forever to get a nibble?

| | Let's just say that I am trying to eulogize this notion that freebees always
| | go to white males who were raised in suburban republican christian two parent
| | families.

| >>	Never heard anyone in here describe it in such detail, Jack. They just
| >>said white males. Why the over dramatization?

| Because the media and the government have been attacking religion in general
| these days.  Conservative believers are of the radical right.  Listen to
| Elders some time...she'll fill you in.

	Jack, address it as it has been presented. You have added your views
into this, and then made them seem like they were other people's. 

| Glen, your comparing apples to oranges.  Violence is alive and well everywhere.
| Danny LaPlante brutally raped and killed a woman, then drowned her children in
| the bathtub...7 miles from my house.  They captured him in a dumpster right in
| my downtown.

	Jack, how often do things like this happen in your neighborhood? How
often do the shooting happen in these other neighborhoods? 

| | Glen, I am strongly for making English the USA nationally recognized language.
| | I believe people who refuse to learn the language are cheating themselves of
| | opportunity in this country.

| >>	Jack, how do you normally answer this question:

| >>		what nationality are you?

| I tell them I'm a mutt. I'm half Irish, half Scottish.  Glen, its personal
| conviction but my heritage doesn't really interest me.  I am an American
| first.  

	Then why not identify with it? It sometimes seems like a two way street
with you Jack. You're allowed to do X, but others can not.



Glen