Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

Anger is one of the seven deadly sins, when it meets the following conditions:

From the examination of conscience in "St. Augustine's Prayer Book", a book of
devotions for members of the Episcopal Church.

ANGER is open rebellion against God or our fellow creatures.  Its purpose
  and desire is to eliminate any obstacle to our self-seeking, to retaliate
  against any threat to our security, to avenge any insult or injury to
  our person.
  
 Resentment.  Refusal to discern, accept, or fulfil God's vocation. 
  Dissatisfaction with the talents, abilities, or opportunities he has
  given us.  Unwillingness to face up to difficulties or sacrifices. 
  Unjustified rebellion or complaint at the circumstances of our lives. 
  Escape from reality or the attempt to force our will upon it. 
  Transference to God, to our parents, to society, or to other
  individuals of the blame for our maladjustment; hatred of God, or
  antisocial behaviour.  Cynicism.  Annoyance at the contrariness of
  things; profanity or grumbling.
  
 Pugnacity.  Attack upon another in anger.  Murder in deed or desire.
  Combativeness or nursing of grudges.  Injury to another by striking,
  cursing, or insulting him; or by damaging his reputation or property. 
  Quarrelsomeness, bickering, contradiction, nagging, rudeness, or
  snubbing.
  
 Retaliation.  Vengeance for wrongs real or imagined, or the plotting
  thereof.  Harsh or excessive punishment.  Hostility, sullenness or
  rash judgment.  Refusal to forgive, or to offer or accept reconciliation.
  Unwillingness to love, to do good to, or to pray for enemies.  Boycotting
  or ostracizing another for selfish reasons.  Spoiling others' pleasure
  by uncooperativeness or disdain, because we have not got our way, or
  because we feel out of sorts or superior.

    Anger is a feeling.  Feelings are never sin.  Feelings are feelings. 
    It is what we do about feelings that can be good or evil.
    
    Resentment is a feeling.  It is just a feeling.  It is what we do about
    our resentments that is good or evil.  Not the feeling itself.
    
    Any theology that attempts to make sin out of our feelings is
    destructive to our humanity and to our spiritual well being. 
    
                                  Patricia
    
    

    Anger (and many other feelings) is one of the fruits of the flesh.
    
    Galatians 5:19-21  Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are 
    these;  Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, 
    witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, 
    heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of 
    the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that 
    they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
    
    Now compare this to the fruits of the Holy Spirit (many of which are
    also feelings):
    
    Galatians 5:22-25  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, 
    longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance:
    against such there is no law.  And they that are Christ's have crucified 
    the flesh with the affections and lusts.  If we live in the Spirit, let us 
    also walk in the Spirit.

    Mike, 
    
    If the fruits of the Holy Spirt are joy, peace, etc what is the "Wrath
    of God?"
    
    

    Good ol' Paul.  Never had an angry word for anyone.
    
    
    ** NOT! **
    

    The Wrath of God is judgment on mankind for rejecting His Son and His
    sacrifice for us.

    re:   <<< Note 968.6 by FRETZ::HEISER "Maranatha!" >>>
                               -< the Unpardonable Sin >-
    
   > The Wrath of God is judgment on mankind for rejecting His Son and His
   > sacrifice for us.
    
    
    The Wrath of God is also judgement on the last day.  Rev 16:16
    Judgement in the form of Armageddon.
    Hebrew:       Har-Magedon
    Translation:  Har = The place   
                  Magedon or Megiddo is the  place where all 
                  important battle were fought in the time of the people
                  of Israel. In our days Megiddo is symbolic, it include
                  the whole earth.
                  But in our days (Last Days) it is the entire
                  earth were this battle of Jehovah God will be Fought.
                  His Son Michael (Jesus Christ) on the white horse (Rev 6)
                  will be the one who was given the Crown and the bough
                  and will win this battle.
    
    Also 2Peter Chapter 3 shows what will happen when this fight is
    going on.    
    
    Rgds.
    Alex

      Hi,
    
        Just a quickie.
    
        I believe anger harbored is a sin.  I wonder if James
        is relevent.  I mean we can have that temptation, but
        it can be repulsed by the grace of God.
    
        Anger is the acorn of which murder is the oak tree.
    
        As for God, I believe all human emotions ascribed to
        Him have a different meaning which is revealed by a line
        upon line, precept upon precept study of the scriptures.
    
        As an example, often scripture will say the same thing
        two different ways and thus illuminate on the meaning of
        terms.
    
        Mark 3:5
        So when He had looked around at them with anger, being 
        grieved by the hardness of their hearts...
    
        That is divine anger...to be grieved by the hardness of one's
        heart.
    
        Patricia, as far as wrath is concerned...
    
        Maybe give Romans 1:18-32 a good read.  There is no indication
        of the mind of God being angry as we know it.  There is every
        indication of allusion to the hardness and impenitence of the
        hearts of those with whom He has wrath.
    
        A line upon line study of judgment is also very illuminating.
        Jesus says He judges no man, but the word will judge.  The
        last days will be like the flood of Noah.  Water is linked to
        appearing of the goodness and kindness of God (Titus 3:4-7),
        to the word which cleanses (Eph 5:26).
    
        In other words, part of what entails the judgment of God
        is when He peels pack the veil and the WORD (revelation of
        His loving character) manifests the destructive force of
        sin.  Light makes manifest.  But, there is no condemning 
        thought in the heart of God.  No anger, no bashing mentality.
                                     
                                                 Tony

    This discussion is obscuring the point.
    
    The question is Is Anger a Sin?
    
    I say no, that it is a emotion.
    
    But those who say that Anger is a Sin must also answer whether God's
    anger as identified in the Bible also is or is not a sin?
    
    Or is this just another apparent contradiction in the minds of us
    unenlightened ones.
    
                                Patricia

    I say it depends on the situation!!
    
    -Jack

    Hi Patricia,
        
    �The question is Is Anger a Sin?
    
     In my last reply I believe I said, yes.
    
    �I say no, that it is a emotion.
    
     On what rational basis did you conclude that an emotion cannot
     possibly be a sin?  Hatred is an emotion as well, is it not?
     I think feelings can be repelled or harbored.  There is a choice
     to make.  I think as one grows in being Christlike, when a person
     does bad to someone, that person can respond with pure love rather
     than anger and hate.  It depends on the heart...how changed it is
     by the Master.
    
    �But those who say that Anger is a Sin must also answer whether God's
    �anger as identified in the Bible also is or is not a sin?
    
     I touched on this in my last reply.  Did you read it?  (.8)
    
    �Or is this just another apparent contradiction in the minds of us
    �unenlightened ones.
    
     We all see through a glass darkly.  We all need the heavenly eye-
     salve.  Far be it from me to ever play the 'Pharisee' and see myself
     as more enlightened than anyone else.  Any sight I have is sight
     given to me.  I am entirely blind outside of divine miracle.
    
                                                     Tony
                        

    .10  I don't see any smiley faces.  You yanking our chain, Jack?
    

    When I wrote my reply, I was thinking of Jesus' response to the money
    changers in the temple.  This may have already been addressed here
    but I believe righteous indignation is a form of anger.
    
    -Jack

>                  But in our days (Last Days) it is the entire
>                  earth were this battle of Jehovah God will be Fought.
>                  His Son Michael (Jesus Christ) on the white horse (Rev 6)
    
    not to start another rathole, but Jesus <> Michael.  Jesus is YHWH.

    Yes..."...All things were created by Him and for Him...and in Him all 
    things consist."
    
    

    >    I believe anger harbored is a sin.  
    
    >    Anger is the acorn of which murder is the oak tree.
    
    >    As for God, I believe all human emotions ascribed to
    >    Him have a different meaning which is revealed by a line
    >    upon line, precept upon precept study of the scriptures.
    
    
        Mark 3:5
     >   So when He had looked around at them with anger, being 
     >   grieved by the hardness of their hearts...
    
   >     That is divine anger...to be grieved by the hardness of one's
   >     heart.
    
   >     Maybe give Romans 1:18-32 a good read.  There is no indication
   >     of the mind of God being angry as we know it.  

   >   But, there is no condemning 
   >     thought in the heart of God.  No anger, no bashing mentality.
    
    
                                     
    
    Maybe it will be more clear if we just stick to anger.  It is playing
    games to say that anger when attributed to humans is one thing and
    anger when attributed to God is another thing.
    
    Anger is one of the most powerful emotions we humans have.  Most of us
    will not make radical changes in our lives until we get angry enough. 
    Anger does not have to be destructive.  Anger signals an internal
    awareness that things have to change.
    
    We can all follow in the Footsteps of Jesus in the temple overturning
    the tables.  If something calls for radical action, then anger can call
    us to action.  Our response to anger though must always be rational.  We
    must not act, merely because we are angry.
    
    Human anger does not have to have anything to do with a bashing
    mentality.
    
    That is the beauty of the Psalms as stated in the note on the Psalms. 
    God loves us in all of our human emotions.  God will judge us by what
    we do, not by what we think or feel.
    
    A religion that applies guilt trips to the way we feel does not lead to
    emotional or spiritual well being.
    
                                                 Patricia

    Richard,
    
    Without being conscious of it, I am replying affirmatively to your
    basenote.
    
    It is a sin not to get angry at injustice and oppression around us.
    
                                    Patricia

    Anger repressed is turned inward and called Depression.
    
    Any religion that teaches that anger is a sin leads to the repression
    of anger and to emotional illness.
    
    One of our goals as humans beings is to keep our emotions in Balance. 
    To hold onto anger is not heathy.  It prevents us from feeling the more
    positive emotions like love and joy.  To refuse to feel the 'negative'
    emotions though is not realistic either.
    
    If I am angry and I punch someone, it is the punching someone that is
    wrong and not the being anger.
    
    If I am angry with someone, and go for a long walk to figure out what I
    am going to do about the way I feel, and come up with some healthy ways
    of dealing with the situation, then there is no wrong done.
    
    If I go around sulking and emotionally abusing a person because I am
    angry, that is as wrong as punching the person.
    
    It is our actions and even our lack of actions,  and not our feelings
    that are right or wrong.
    
    

Does anyone really argue that what is described in reply .1 is not sin?

What is described in reply .1 is the official definition of the sin of anger.

Is what is described in .1 just emotion?

No.  What is described in .1 is a failure to love God and/or neighbor.

That is sin.

Remember that temptation is not sin.  The angry emotional response to certain
things is the temptation to engage in the sin of anger.

To avoid the sin of anger, one must learn to direct the angry emotional
response into positive action rather than the sinful anger described in .1.

/john

    I guess I was confusing anger with hatred.  I would have to say that my
    previous post really only applies to hatred.  The DEC-issue dictionary
    even defines them differently.  Anger could be sin in certain
    situations.  The anger displayed by God, such as in the Temple with the
    moneychangers cheating the Jews, is a righteous anger.
    
    Mike

    John,
    
    I don't believe that your note .1 accurately described either the
    emotion of anger or the emotion of resentment.
    
    

    .20  Anger and hatred are not the same thing.  However, it is possible,
    I believe, for anger and hatred to be manifested simultaneously.
    
    At the same time, one can be full of hate without expressing even
    a whisper of anger.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

  Be angry and sin not, let not the sun go down upon your wrath.

  Anger is not a sin unless you nurture it into hatred.

  Hank D

    re:    <<< Note 968.14 by FRETZ::HEISER "Maranatha!" >>>
    
    
    
    
   >> not to start another rathole, but Jesus <> Michael.  Jesus is YHWH.
    
      The Tanach (Hebrew bible) uses YHWH for God almighty, which is the
      the tetragrammaton for Jehovah or Jahweh.
      And Jesus wasn't born yet.
      Ps: Hebrew Bible cotains only the old testament.
    
      So Jesus in Not YHWH.
    
    Rgds.
    Alex
    

    re: .23
    
      Hi Hank,
    
        That's a powerful scripture.  Maybe I'm wrong!  (I'm really
        not sure.)
    
                                              Tony

  Re .25 Tony confused  :-)

  Dont be, Our Father told Jonah he was right to be angry with the gord
  for destroying his lean-to, alluding that He (God) had a greater right
  to be angry with Jonah for not wanting to preach repentance (and forgiveness)
  to a people who couldn't morally discern their right hand from their left.

  Hank  

  Re 968.24 Alex 

  note 968.14 is from a CHRISTIAN-PERSPECTIVE and its surprising to 
  see your note here. 

  Trinitarian christians believe that Jesus is God incarnate and was
  known as the Logos before His birth and we believe that He is the I AM 
  (HaShem) who revealed himself to Moses in the burning bush. 
  What you are seeing here (note .14) is an objection from a trinitarian 
  christian concerning the identity of the rider of the white horse in the 
  christian scripture of Revelation Chapter 6. 

  we understand that non-christians and some non-trinitarian christians would
  be offended by .14. And it would seem that one of these situations is yours.

  This conference covers a very wide scope of what is called christianity.
  Please dont be offended by the wide variety of values held by the 
  participants.
  
  Hank 

>      The Tanach (Hebrew bible) uses YHWH for God almighty, which is the
>      the tetragrammaton for Jehovah or Jahweh.
>      And Jesus wasn't born yet.
>      Ps: Hebrew Bible cotains only the old testament.
    
    The term Jehovah is a man-made creation (German scholars) and isn't in the
    Hebrew Bible either.  As for the birth of Jesus, see Colossians
    1:15-18.

    As the author of the basenote in this string, I respectfully request
    that trinitarian versus non-trinitarian doctrine be discussed
    elsewhere (another string).
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

 RE:             <<< Note 968.29 by FRETZ::HEISER "Maranatha!" >>>
                        -< check out the "Is Jesus God" topic >-
    
    Reply to 968.27    Hank,
    Reply to 968.29    Mike,
    Reply t0 968.30    Richard,
    
    
    Hank, I'am really not offended.
    My intention was only trying to convince you all about that 
    there is only one God, and not a God that can divide himself
    into two or three persons. And because of the last judgement he
    certainly will show his anger on that very last day.
    But he will delegate that anger to His Son Jesus Christ.He will show
    that anger in the form of the last big war at Har-Magedon.
    That war is a war between Satan the Devil and Michael (Christ name
    in Heaven).That war will be fought near this earth, and we (all human
    being will be part of it). So it is important to choose the right side 
    now. In Matthew Jesus is talking about the sheeps and the goats.
    Sheeps on the right side and goats onthe left side.
    It is surely not easy to express your thoughts in just some sentences
    in notes. Maybe I'am too Zealous about some subjects discussed in here
    and I know, sometimes things doesn't work out like I would.
    About the white horse,there are still 3 more. They are right now
    riding on this earth     See notes 235.42 for more. 
    
    
    Mike,
    
    I know that YeHoWaH or YaHWeH is a man-made creation.
    And not German Sholars, in case of YeHoWaH, but William Tyndale did
    restore the name in the bible.
    As for YaHWeH, it was Jewish Scholars.
    But what do you think of the name Jesus (the Christ).
    His name is Not Jesus, but everyone knows whom you're talking about
    when you speak this name.
    His name also appears in Hebrew Bible. It is a common name, nothing
    special in those days. His name is Joshua (Jeshua in Greek).
    The name means Jehovah is my Savior.Moses even made it like Jehoshua.
    So like the name Jehovah is man made, The name Jesus is also man made.
    
    Richard,
    I will try to keep in line with the subjects in future.
    I mean, like Mike already mention: Look for the topic "Is Jesus God"
     
    Rgds to you all,
    Alex.
                                                        

re: Note 968.31 by Alex

>    But he will delegate that anger to His Son Jesus Christ.He will show
>    that anger in the form of the last big war at Har-Magedon.

Does this place name "Har-Magedon" translate into anything?  Many Biblical 
place names do, often serving as a description, or some relevant phrase about 
the place.  Thanks.

Peace,

Jim

    re .32 (TFH::KIRK)/Jim
    
>Does this place name "Har-Magedon" translate into anything?  Many Biblical 
>place names do, often serving as a description, or some relevant phrase about 
>the place.  Thanks.
    
    	Rev 16:16 says it's a Hebrew expression.  A NWT footnote says it
    means "Mountain of Megiddo".  Although there is no literal mountain at
    Megiddo, Megiddo is a real place in Israel.  I think there was a battle
    field (or battle plain) there, with a fortification on a nearby hill. 
    Several strategic battles were fought there.
    
    	In Isa 2 and Micah 4, in the "final part of the days," people are
    said to go up to the "mountain of Jehovah" (Isa 2:3 NWT), where they
    are taught Jehovah's ways, which include learning to be peaceful
    ("neither will they learn war no more," v.4).  Since having a peaceful
    relationship with God is typified by one being upon his "mountain", the
    symbolism of Rev 16 is a fitting contrast; the people of the world's
    nations who reject the opportunity to go to Jehovah's figurative
    mountain of peace end up being gathered to the figurative "Mountain of
    Megiddo" where they will face divine wrath in God's final judgment on
    this world's system.
    
    
    								-mark.

    re .34 
    
>    	Hey Mark,
>    			What I wanna know is how many pets do you got
>    	that are named Eric?
    
    	Only the one's that I've got a license for.
    								-mark.

    RE:          <<< Note 968.32 by TFH::KIRK "a simple song" >>>
                           -< haven't heard of Har-Magedon >-
    
    
Hallo Jim,
    
    Mark already answered the question for me, I hope you don't mind.
    I couldn't give a better answer than he did.
    BTW there always a little delay for me to answer back because of 
    the shift.
    
    Rgds.
    Alex
    

     <<< Note 968.33 by ILLUSN::SORNSON "Are all your pets called 'Eric'?"
    >>>
                       -< Har-Magedon also called "Armageddon" >-
    
    
    
    Hallo Mark,
    
    
    Thanks for the rapid answer.
    
    Rgds,
    Alex
    

    To consider anger a sin ... is a sin.
    
    	Agostino

re:  Note 968.36 by Alex

>  -< Question already answered. >-

No problem, and thank you, Mark, for your answer.

Peace,

Jim

    .38
    
    Welcome to C-P, Agostino.  I hope you and other new contributors
    will take a moment and place an introduction in topic 3.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard