| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 949.1 | | CUPMK::WAJENBERG | | Thu Jul 07 1994 16:25 | 9 |
| If you believe Jesus to be the Messiah, then you should try to disuade
your friend because he would be turning from a religion that recognizes
this truth to one that does not.
It is not logical to judge a doctrine as false simply because some of
the people who believe in it are unpleasant. Many unpleasant people
believe that the Earth is round and that vitamin C prevents scurvy.
Earl Wajenberg
|
| 949.2 | | AIMHI::JMARTIN | | Thu Jul 07 1994 17:26 | 16 |
| You may want to recommend a sect called the Messianic Jews. I know
there are such churches/synagogues in New England. Born Again Jews
if you will.
If your friend is seriously considering the conversion to Judaism as
recognized today, you may want to challenge your friend by asking
he/she what they really believe regarding Jesus, who he was, and
what his mission was; namely to seek and to save that which was lost.
If he/she doesn't believe Jesus to be the Messiah, then perhaps the
Jewish faith is a faith to strongly consider.
If your friend truly believes Jesus to be the Messiah, you may want to
steer them to another local church.
-Jack
|
| 949.3 | | AIMHI::JMARTIN | | Thu Jul 07 1994 17:29 | 7 |
| By the way, disgusted and frustrated sound like strong negative
adjectives to describe this fundamentalist faction that we all seem to
have a problem identifying. Perhaps you could ask this friend who the
fundamentalists are. It may be a local church problem as opposed to
using a broad brush as you have communicated to me as a reader.
-Jack
|
| 949.4 | | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Thu Jul 07 1994 17:35 | 10 |
| What positions of the so-called fundamentalist faction disgust your friend?
Are they the same positions held by Orthodox and Conservative Jews?
It's interesting that conservative Christians and Orthodox and Conservative
Jews agree on most moral issues.
Liberal Christians and Reform Jews have both abandoned moral absolutism.
/john
|
| 949.5 | | AIMHI::JMARTIN | | Thu Jul 07 1994 17:51 | 12 |
| Richard:
You may also want to mention to your friend that a bad testimony on the
part of members of the local church (assuming they are in one accord
doctrinally and the members are just spiritually immature), should not
necessitate the abandoning of faith in the savior.
It sounds to me like he isn't really established in his faith yet. He
doesn't sound certain that Jesus is who he believes in, otherwise it
would seem he'd pick another Christian denomination.
-Jack
|
| 949.6 | Worth your while.... | CSC32::KINSELLA | A tree with a rotten core cannot stand. | Thu Jul 07 1994 20:25 | 30 |
|
Hmmm....good question Richard. We're in a study on II Corinthians and
last night we were in Chapters 2-7. Chapter 3 talks about the Old
Covenant. Something I'd never noticed before was that the veil Moses
wore over his face was not to cover the radiance from being with God,
but to cover that it was fading just as the Law has been fading. The
Law was only a tutor to the New Covenant in Christ. Actually, Paul's
credibility as an apostle is being questioned here because of his lack
of success with converting Jews. He defends his apostolate by saying
that the Jews still have a veil over their hearts and minds. Only
Christ can remove that veil just as the veil of the temple tore upon
His death. With Christ we can now go into the Holy of Holies. I don't
like to recommend books I have really read completely yet, but you
might want to check one out that might help. It's called "Christ before
the Manger" by Ron Rhodes. I have just started it and wish I was
further into it so I could give you a better recommendation. However,
in his intro, Rhodes talks about showing the reader the
"Christocentricity" (I think I got that right) of the O.T. It might be
a helpful book in showing your friend what the O.T. was foretelling and
then being able to see it fulfilled in the N.T. I definitely think it
worth your while to reason with Him from the Scriptures and he
certainly shouldn't object to looking at the O.T. since it is the
Hebrew scriptures of Judaism.
I would also encourage Him to get his mind of other people (in this
case fundamentalist Christians) and try to get His mind on Christ. No
person is perfect and if he's looking for perfection, he has only one
place to look. Hope this was helpful.
Jill
|
| 949.7 | | AIMHI::JMARTIN | | Fri Jul 08 1994 17:01 | 5 |
| Richard:
Why don't you give us his name so we can keep him in prayer!
-Jack
|
| 949.8 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Heat-seeking pacifist | Fri Jul 08 1994 19:53 | 10 |
| Thank you for your kind offer, but I don't wish to betray a confidence
(even though there may be little chance your paths will ever cross).
I believe it is the Reformed Jews who are under consideration, but I
could be wrong about that. I wonder how often such conversions,
Christian to Jew, actually occur. My guess is not often.
Shalom,
Richard
|
| 949.9 | It's probably not as rare as we think... | CSC32::KINSELLA | A tree with a rotten core cannot stand. | Fri Jul 08 1994 20:58 | 8 |
|
I still love to keep in contact with Daniel Katz. Although, I don't
have his whereabouts for the summer as he's back stateside. I should
hear from him again once he's back in school in the fall. We respect
each other and neither one of us pretends to be something we're not.
We don't always agree, but we keep talking just the same.
Jill
|
| 949.10 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Heat-seeking pacifist | Sat Jul 09 1994 13:28 | 6 |
| I hope you'll pass along a big hello to Daniel for me next time you're
in contact with him.
Shalom,
Richard
|
| 949.11 | | POWDML::FLANAGAN | Resident Alien | Mon Jul 11 1994 12:36 | 6 |
| My totally unbiased opinion would be to convince your friend to become
a Unitarian Universalist. Then your friend can believe exactly what
he/she wants about Jesus, Christianity, Judaism, FAith, etc.
Patricia
|
| 949.12 | | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Mon Jul 11 1994 13:25 | 7 |
| .11
unbiased??? this was supposed to be funny, right? One doesn't have
to become anything to believe what they want about Jesus. Everybody
in this life when confronted with Christ develops a belief about Him.
|
| 949.13 | | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Mon Jul 11 1994 14:18 | 8 |
| re .11
Well, yeah, if the real issue for the person in .0 is not
faith, doctrine, and truth, but who else is "in the club"
maybe the Society for Creative Anachronisms would be
appropriate.
/john
|
| 949.14 | | AIMHI::JMARTIN | | Mon Jul 11 1994 14:23 | 13 |
| Actually, Patricia has a point on this one. Not meant to be
pajorative, the Unitarian Universalist Church strikes me as believing
in "Churchianity", meaning that there is unity in the idea of meeting
together to fulfill a need or want to attend a local church while at
the same time not really being accountable to a specific article of
faith.
I think having exposure to the New Testament is important for this
individual if they are to get any exposure to the life of Christ.
The Jews proclaim Christ to be a prophet or a great teacher, not the
messiah.
-Jack
|
| 949.15 | | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Mon Jul 11 1994 14:26 | 9 |
| > The Jews proclaim Christ to be a prophet or a great teacher, not the
> messiah.
Oh, no. That's the Moslems.
The Jews proclaim Jesus to be a blasphemer and a troublemaker who taught
his followers to twist the Hebrew scriptures.
/john
|
| 949.16 | | POWDML::FLANAGAN | Resident Alien | Mon Jul 11 1994 14:31 | 34 |
| Yes, I was trying to be funny in a sense. I also believe that there is
much seriousness in humor. As a UU I can appreciate the best of
Christianity and the best of Judaism. Both of those religions have
wonderful strong points but also some serious difficulties in my
opinion based on a strong monotheistic belief in a God that is only
Male and a God that is Asexual. This way of imaging the divine has
strong implications for how we view gender issues and how we view
sexuality issues.
>Actually, Patricia has a point on this one. Not meant to be
>pajorative, the Unitarian Universalist Church strikes me as believing
>in "Churchianity", meaning that there is unity in the idea of meeting
>together to fulfill a need or want to attend a local church while at
>the same time not really being accountable to a specific article of
>faith.
I agree that there is unity in the idea of meeting together to fulfill
a need for community and Faith development while not being
indoctrinated into any specific articles of Faith.
I believe that Faith development is a process and not about being
taught a set of doctrines. I believe that most UU's would agree that
statement. Faith can be in community, in love, in social action, in a
Divinity. It is all faith in something outside of ones self.
Patricia
I think having exposure to the New Testament is important for this
individual if they are to get any exposure to the life of Christ.
The Jews proclaim Christ to be a prophet or a great teacher, not the
messiah.
-Jack
|
| 949.17 | ex | AIMHI::JMARTIN | | Mon Jul 11 1994 15:38 | 24 |
| Patricia:
Goodness is pretty much a universal norm in religion. Even if it
doesn't exist it is rhetorically espoused to.
Christianity and Judaism, although they both believe in the God of
the Patriarchs Abe, Isaac and Jacob, are like apples and oranges in
their basic beliefs. The two religions doctrinally are opposites but
do not compliment one another! That's one of the reasons UU may be
preferred over reformed Judaism.
Men and women were created with different abilities and different roles.
Although God is identified as He in the Bible, there are instances in
the Bible where the Holy Spirit is used in the feminine form. The
whole thing doesn't really matter as far as God is concerned. God is
not human, God is not male. God created mankind, male an female he
created us.
We cannot change the Bible because passages were written in the
masculine or the feminine. Respect toward another gender must come
from within. We cannot make a PC version of the Bible in order to save
us from ourselves!!!
-Jack
|
| 949.18 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | The rocks will cry out! | Mon Jul 11 1994 16:14 | 10 |
| Note 949.15
>The Jews proclaim Jesus to be a blasphemer and a troublemaker who taught
>his followers to twist the Hebrew scriptures.
Jesus was a man after my own heart, as similar allegations have been lodged
against me by "true believers."
Richard
|
| 949.19 | How many Scriptures have you Fullfilled today? :-) | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Mon Jul 11 1994 16:29 | 8 |
| -1
:-) Well, it's one thing to be a mere man and twist scriptures, it's
another thing to fulfill the scriptures and be accused of twisting.
One is God, the other is not.
|
| 949.20 | | AIMHI::JMARTIN | | Mon Jul 11 1994 17:29 | 4 |
| >> Jesus was a man after my own heart, as similar allegations have been
>> lodged against me by "true believers."
Where?
|
| 949.21 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | The rocks will cry out! | Mon Jul 11 1994 17:36 | 5 |
| .19 Rest assured, I never said I was God. However, I am in union
with Christ.
Richard
|