Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    
    
    		I started a new note in hope's that through this note we
    can begin to dialog about this issue without wading thru all the other
    "stuff" in the processing topic.
    
    
    Dave

Yes, Dave, I have sensed the polarization of which you speak.  I have
probably even contributed to it.  I know I have felt, at times, prodded
into it.

I think to some degree C-P is reflecting some of the polarization which
is presently going on in society.  There's talk of a cultural war.  Battle
lines are being drawn.  If such a thing is to be, God forbid that any blood is
spilled over it.

In a forum such as this, there always lurks the potential of seeing disparity
rather than diversity.  There's always an impulse to fix what's wrong with
the other guy.  And I'm as guilty as anyone in getting caught up in this
reflex.

I find a sense of humor helps a lot.  That, and the realization that neither
this file nor any other file is ultimately all that important.

Shalom,
Richard

re Note 922.0 by DPDMAI::DAWSON:

> Why do we want to always think 
> the worst about someone elses thoughts and motives?  

        Some of that I think is a natural outcome of some traditional
        understanding of the Christian message.

        Adam and Eve make *one* error and are not only severely
        punished themselves but all their descendants forever.  The
        presence of even a single moral flaw is considered to be
        enough to be punished the same as the vilest mass-murderer.

        The way is narrow.  You are either for or against. 
        Obviously, chances are that one is against unless very
        particular, even unlikely, conditions are met.

        Given some traditional teaching, it is very easy to come to
        believe that if you are doing and believing what you "know"
        to be right then those who disagree with you are not only
        wrong but in league with supernatural powers of evil.

        So yes, Dave, if you disagree with me I am justified in
        thinking the worst of you.

        Bob

Do not judge, so that you may not be judged.  For with the judgment
you make you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the
measure you get.  Why do you see the speck in your neighbor's eye,
but do not otice the log in your own eye.
						Matthew 7:1-3

Do not judge, and you will not be judged; do not condemn, and you
will not be condemned.  Forgive and you will be forgiven;
						Luke 6:37

Let anyone who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.
...Woman, where are they who condemned you? ... Neither do I condemn
you.
						John 8:7,10,11

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all
your soul, and with all your mind.  This is the greatest and first
commandment.  And the second is like it:  You shall love your
neighbor as yourself.  On these two commandments hang all the law and
the prophets.
						Matthew 22:37-40

>Do not judge, so that you may not be judged. ...

If another member of the church sins, go and point out the fault when the
two of you are alone.  If the member listens to you, you have regained that
one.  But if you are not listened to, take one or two others along with you,
so that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
If the member refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if the
offender refuses to listen even to the church, let such a one be to you as
a Gentile and a tax collector.  Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth
will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in
heaven.

						Matthew 18:15-20

>Let anyone who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.
>...Woman, where are they who condemned you? ... Neither do I condemn
>you.
>						John 8:7,10,11

And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you.  Go your way, and from now on do
not sin again.

						John 8:11b

RE: 922.3  Bob,


>        Some of that I think is a natural outcome of some traditional
>        understanding of the Christian message.

		I cannot help but think that the so-called Christian
		message is being misunderstood.


>        Adam and Eve make *one* error and are not only severely
>        punished themselves but all their descendants forever.  The
>        presence of even a single moral flaw is considered to be
>        enough to be punished the same as the vilest mass-murderer.

		Here is where an emphases is wrongly placed.  The
		Fundamentalist message is one of "Good News" and 
		not one of "do this or be punished".  Punishment
		is a given but there is a way which will fulfill
		your deepest desire of acceptence which we all have
		to a greater or lesser degree.  Why look to the
		punishment rather than the rewards?  Is the glass
		half full or half empty?  Its all in how you look
		at the issue.  The aspect of punishment need never 
		come up.

>        The way is narrow.  You are either for or against. 
>        Obviously, chances are that one is against unless very
>        particular, even unlikely, conditions are met.

		Given the possibility of God being how Fundies 
		present him, then this statement is correct though
		I would disagree how "unlikely" those conditions
		truly are.  Its only another way of saying that 
		God is real and the Bible says how to recieve
		God into your life. 

>        Given some traditional teaching, it is very easy to come to
>        believe that if you are doing and believing what you "know"
>        to be right then those who disagree with you are not only
>        wrong but in league with supernatural powers of evil.

		It is easy when you forget where you come from.
		"There but for the grace of God, go I".

>        So yes, Dave, if you disagree with me I am justified in
>        thinking the worst of you.

		No.  I don't and can't believe in that.


Dave

RE: 922.5  John,
    
    
>If another member of the church sins, go and point out the fault when the
>two of you are alone.  If the member listens to you, you have regained that
>one.  But if you are not listened to, take one or two others along with you,
>so that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
>If the member refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if the
>offender refuses to listen even to the church, let such a one be to you as
>a Gentile and a tax collector.  Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth
>will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in
>heaven.

>						Matthew 18:15-20


		This is true for the Church member but does not apply to 
		the non-Christian.  Since this file has never contended
		or set itself up as a "Church" this cannot apply.  This
		is a place of "witness" to what you believe.


Dave

    .6  I think some of Bob's dry wit takes a bit of getting used to, Dave.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    Thanks for entering this note Dave.  I have felt many of the same
    things myself and it makes me feel sad.  I am here to learn from
    other's experiences.  When I read a note and don't agree with it I
    always try to understand what they have said from *their* perspective. 
    I believe that everyone in here is seeking God and that God reveals
    Himself to those who do seek.  We do not convince others of anything by
    our words.  Only the Holy Spirit can change hearts.
    
    I would also like to thank Debby for those beautiful verses which
    remind us of the humility we should all take on.  Again, thanks Debby.
    
    Rob
    

re Note 922.6 by DPDMAI::DAWSON:

> >        So yes, Dave, if you disagree with me I am justified in
> >        thinking the worst of you.
> 
> 		No.  I don't and can't believe in that.

        As Richard pointed out, there was a bit of dry humor in my
        note, but I avoided the smiley-faces because I was deadly
        serious as well.

        I see this kind of thing all the time.

        To take an example from another current topic:  James Dobson,
        a man with excellent ideas and teaching in the area of child
        rearing (I've read several of his books and seen several
        videos on this topic by him) does not work to educate the
        Congress, NEA, or the Clinton administration on the topic of
        education but rather treats them as unredeemably evil forces
        that simply must be stopped -- no compromise is possible.

        Bob

    RE: .0
    
    A lot to reflect on Dave. I wonder, though, if it is possible to have
    the type of file you and others want. With the daily tension in here,
    and the strong ferver that some people bring here from their religious
    teaching....I feel that we will always have a "rough" time.
    
    I hope things improve...but....
    
    Marc H.

    RE: .11  Marc,
    
    			I think we can have a file where understanding
    is the norm but its going to take everyone wanting it.  Its going 
    to take all to practice the Biblical love Jesus showed us.  Of 
    course I am not thnking it willbe easy or quick, just necessary.
    
    			For me, I believe as Richard does, that this
    nation is heading toward an extreme polorizing time.  Somehow I would
    like to see it stoped here.  At this juncture it really is up to the
    participants here.  If you all truly want it....then......   :-)
    
    
    
    Dave

re .7

Oh, true.  This file is not a Church.  The Church is that body of which
Christ is the Head and all Baptized believers are the Members.

In .4, Debby was presenting what I call "sound bite Christianity".

The popular pablum the press puts over on us is only part of the Gospel.

There is much more to the story.

Jesus was not a wimp who taught love without responsibility.  He taught
very clearly about what was right and what was wrong, and the responsibility
of his followers to correct both themselves and other followers.

/john

RE: Note 922.13 by COVERT::COVERT
    
    So who gets to decide which of two disagreeing followers is correct?
    Who should be correcting whom? That's the rub.

    	Eric

    RE: .13
    
    Doesn't sound promising for Dave....
    
    
    Marc H.

Weeeell now (in my best Maine twang) ....  Last I knew the Bible was quite
popular.  Ayuh.

But seriously - what I was trying to underscore, in my not so well rounded
quotes, is that there are times and issues that we can not and/or should not 
judge.  Times when the line between human insight and divine omniscience
cannot be discerned by mere mortals.  Times when the most blessed thing we
can do is to love, accept and nurture those who knock at our door.  Whether
that is the door of our house, our church or our comfort zone.

      Hi Dave,
    
        I really appreciate your opening entry.  I happen to believe
        that God _is_ love.  Some people say, "God is love, BUT He is
        also just.  Now if I said, "My wife is kind, BUT she is also
        nice" it wouldn't make sense.  Because 'but' implies contrast.
    
        Anyway, I really believe that God's judgment, justice, eventual
        handling of what happens to the unsaved...these are all entirely
        consistent with His character of love.
    
        I heard once that no one lives a life better than one's under-
        standing of Deity.  I do not picture a God who ever got into
        discussions and had to win the argument or had to criticize or
        whatever.  I believe that every time Jesus talked, love just
        emanated out of Him.
    
        It follows then (for me) that doing anything other than what
        you said is simply being unChristlike and (thus) is sin itself.
    
        Thanks again...
    
                                                    Tony