| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 920.1 | the short answer | TFH::KIRK | a simple song | Wed May 18 1994 12:03 | 8 |
| re: Note 920.0 by Richard "Heat-seeking Pacifist"
My perspective is that we are essentially good people, made in God's own
image, who have fallen.
Peace,
Jim
|
| 920.2 | an even shorter answer ;-) | SOLVIT::HAECK | Debby Haeck | Wed May 18 1994 12:43 | 7 |
| yes
Well.... not that short :-)
I think that I am both good and bad. And my acts are both good and
bad. And sometimes my good intentions result in bad acts. And
sometimes my bad intentions result in good acts.
|
| 920.3 | | AIMHI::JMARTIN | | Wed May 18 1994 13:16 | 19 |
| Very good question. It reminded me of Jesus' response to the
pharisees...
"Good teacher, we know that you havee come from God...
Jesus answer, Why do you call me good? There is none good except God
in Heaven."
I believe Jesus was saying, (to paraphrase) Hey guys, if you don't
believe who I claim to be, then why are you calling me good since only
God is good.
I hate to always be the negative guy here but here goes. Jeremiah
writes that the heart of man is desparately wicked, above all else.
I believe to one another, good is subjective. We are generally good to
one another, for the most part. I do believe however that God sees us
differently. Although loved deeply, we are separated by our
wickedness.
-Jack
|
| 920.4 | All have sinned | MARLIN::KLIMOWICZ | | Wed May 18 1994 14:13 | 36 |
|
ROM 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through on man,
and death through sin, and in this way death came to all
men, because all sinned
ISAI 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all
our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
ROM 7:18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my
sinful nature.
The Bible tells us that we all fall short of God's expectations of "Good".
We can do nothing on our own to please God!
Our only hope to stand "clean" before God, is if we accept the invitation
of Jesus TO STAND IN OUR PLACE BEFORE GOD. Only through the blood of the
Lamb are we washed clean, and have the hope of spending eternety with
Him.
His invitation still stands:
REV 3:19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be
earnest, and repent.
:20 HERE I AM! I stand at the door and knock. If
anyone opens the door, I will come in and eat
with him, and he with me,
:21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to
sit on my throne, just as I overcame and sat
down with my Father on his throne..
Oleg
|
| 920.5 | | JUPITR::HILDEBRANT | I'm the NRA | Wed May 18 1994 14:28 | 6 |
| When questions like the basenote come up, I'm always reminded of
the story "Lord of the Flies".
Mankind is by nature evil.
Marc H.
|
| 920.6 | | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Wed May 18 1994 14:48 | 90 |
| This topic cuts close to emotionally related issues in our individual
lives which can be summed in one phrase, self esteem.
The message below is an extract from a previous conversation regarding
self-esteem, which I believes lies in the value God has for us. And
the value God has for us is beyond our instruments of human measure or
reason. God sent Jesus to die for us... he valued us that much.
<<< ATLANA::DUB1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN_V6.NOTE;1 >>>
-< See 642.* - Conference rollover, Friday 2/27 @5pm EST (USA) >-
================================================================================
Note 374.26 Self Image and the Christian 26 of 96
JULIET::MORALES_NA 75 lines 4-AUG-1992 11:25
-< Another Angle of the Same thing ??? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When our lives have been thrown out of balance by sin/shame everything changes
and that which appears lucid becomes tainted, like looking through a dirty
window. What you see behind, is still the *same* thing, but the view is dirty
from the stains on the window.
I see shame producing different results, as it affects our self image and
ability to have a loving relationship with Christ:
1. shame - guilt - humility - salvation
2. shame - guilt - humility/humiliation - salvation
3. shame - guilt - humiliation - lost
Shame leads to guilt, and that guilt can lead to humility and eventually to
salvation. For others, the shame leads to guilt, humiliation and a sense of
being completely and unreachably lost.
While I agree with you wholeheartedly that Christ needs to be the center of our
lives, I propose to you that the process in getting there (based on childhood
experiences), can be a long, difficult haul for the child that suffers from
humiliation.
Our self image or mirror comes from:
Parents / Authorities
In the Old Testament, God ordained by the law that if a man is caught
breaking a law that the sons would bear the humiliation for generations and
oftimes the consequences. (Cain banished and his people would be marked.)
Exodus 34:6-7
Children mirror their image in their parents. If a parent is neglectful,
unstable, deceitful, physically or sexually abusing, then the child has the
"God-given shame" to know that is wrong, but the wounded child takes the
parent's shame or sin and applies it to themselves. When one of these
children (it could be an adult who comes from this environment) accepts
Christ as Savior, their salvation spawns hope beyond measure.
The disconnect is that they are still carrying the sin/attitude of the
parents. Yes, God forgave them of their sin, and that is a miracle on its
own merit. But the wounded child cannot be forgiven for their father's
(lineage) sins. So once again that image can be tainted by sin (that which
is not their own).
However, if salvation occurs while the child is still under the direct
influence of their parents, who are abusive or dysfunctional, the child can
grow into an adult who rarely has victory in their Christian walk. They will
become active in the church for a while, then temptation comes and due to the
shame of their inability to overcome their father's sin, they abandon
Christianity. But, like a see-saw the desire to "do right" will bring them
back and forth through churches, temporarily serving God, but never
victorious for consistent Christian service.
The condemnation of their self image creates an aura of "I'm not good enough
to serve God." Negative self criticisms like, "I don't deserve a place of
service for God" or "I'll never be enough for God" mirrors and the image
becomes distorted as to how God views his children.
Granted *we* never are enough. But there comes a point in ones life when
acceptance of *never* being enough is balanced by the grace and mercy of our
Lord Jesus Christ, and not the knot deep within the pit of our stomachs that
reeks havoc in the heart. (Romans 7 & 8)
With this in mind, Sandy, can you really assert that a person's self image is
not important to the very vitality of Christianity?
Nancy
|
| 920.7 | old problem | DNEAST::DALELIO_HENR | | Wed May 18 1994 15:22 | 6 |
|
Isn't this what got us in all this trouble in the first place :-( .
"ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil"
Hank
|
| 920.8 | Yes | PACKED::COLLIS::JACKSON | Live freed or live a slave to sin | Wed May 18 1994 15:32 | 1 |
| bad = sinful (i.e. tendency to sin)
|
| 920.9 | The Love of God | MARLIN::KLIMOWICZ | | Wed May 18 1994 17:57 | 51 |
|
The Love of God...
PSALM 103 Praise the Lord, o my soul; all my inmost being, praise
his holy name.
Praise the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his
benefits
who forgives all your sins and heals all your deseases,
who redeems your life from the pit and crowns you with
love and compassion,
who satisfies your desires with good things so that your
youth is renewed like the eagle's
The Lord works righteousness and justice for all the
oppressed.
He made known his ways to Moses, his deeds to the people
Israel:
The Lord is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger,
abounding in love.
He will not always accuse, nor will he harbor his anger
forever;
HE DOES NOT TREAT US AS OUR SINS DESERVE OR REPAY US
ACCORDING TO OUR INIQUITIES.
FOR AS HIGH AS THE HEAVENS ARE ABOVE THE EARTH, SO GREAT
IS HIS LOVE FOR THOSE WHO FEAR HIM;
AS FAR AS THE EAST IS FROM THE WEST, SO FAR HAS HE
REMOVED OUR TRANSGRESSIONS FROM US.
As a father has compassion on his children, so the Lord
has compassion on those who fear him;
for he knows how we are formed, he remembers that we
are dust.
As for man, his days are like grass, he flourishes like
a flower of the field;
the wind blows over it and it is gone, and its place
remembers it no more.
But from everlasting to everlasting the Lord's love is
with those who fear him, and his righteousness with
their children's children
with those who keep his covenant and remember to obey
his precepts.
The Lord has established his throne in heaven, and his
kingdom rules over all.
Praise the Lord, you his angels, you mighty ones who
do his bidding, who obey his word.
Praise the Lord, all his heavenly hosts, you his servants
who do his will.
Praise the Lord, all his works everywhere in his dominion.
Praise the Lord, O my soul.
|
| 920.10 | My Thoughts | LUDWIG::BARBIERI | | Fri May 20 1994 13:01 | 22 |
| Hi,
Outside of the grace of God, our minds cannot help but
serve self. The old man is in us and our mind will serve
him unless there is a new motivation. That motivation is
the love of Christ. When we surrender to this new motivation,
the old man (love of self) is crucified. Of course, the experience
of serving our new Master is gradual.
If we are 'good' people who sometimes do bad things, it would
follow that we intrinsically have righteoussness. And thus, we
could be righteouss (at least in part) all on our own. But, we
can only be righteouss by faith; by allowing God to shed abroad
in our hearts His righteoussness.
To summarize: outside of the grace of God, we are evil to the
core. When we beging submitting to a new motivation, our
affections are split until (unless) perfection results. However,
during this 'split' time, God accounts us righteouss because He
knows that what He started, He can finish.
Tony
|
| 920.11 | | HYLNDR::TRUMPLER | Help prevent truth decay. | Fri May 20 1994 15:06 | 6 |
| I think both kinds of people exist. I also think there are people who
don't do any good things.
I don't think anyone exists who does no bad things.
Mark
|