Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

The first to be persecuted and murdered by the Nazis were persons targeted for
what they did:  Political dissidents and trade unionists.  Opposition,
differing ideas, criticisms of the government were to be permanently silenced.

Second were people targeted for what they didn't do:  They wouldn't swear
allegiance to the state, they wouldn't register for military service (the
draft), and most inflammatory of all, they wouldn't say, "Heil, Hilter!" as
a greeting and farewell.  In response to "Heil, Hitler!" they might say,
"Good morning."  These were the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Jehovah's Witnesses became the Holocaust's only voluntary victims.  For
the Jehovah's Witnesses were given the opportunity to renounce their faith
and swear their loyalty to the state.  If they did, they were released.
Very few of them did.

Shalom,
Richard

    The third were people targeted for what they were:
    
    The homosexual
    The handicapped
    The Jew
    The Pole
    The one born of blood mixed with Gypsies
    
    

A peculiarity of the Holocaust, according to Berenbaum, is that the guilty
often felt innocent and the innocent often bore feelings of guilt.

Hoping to spare some of the Jews from the Nazi regime, a Roman Catholic
official knowingly falsified thousands of baptismal certificates.  This
man was later to become Pope John XXIII.  In 1964 under this pope, it
was declared that the church would not hold the Jews wholly responsible for
the death of Jesus Christ.

Another pope, Pope John Paul II, also having some first-hand knowledge of the
hatred and bigotry that lubricated the machinery of the Third Reich, has
spoken out strongly against anti-Semitism.

Popes Pious XI and XII, in contrast, were silent.

Shalom,
Richard

    Re.3
    
    Now that's a *great* statement about what the spirit of Christianity
    vs. the law of Christianity is all about.
    
    Falsified baptismal certificates (essentially a lie) to save lives
    (against a truly greater evil) - assuming he did this without forced 
    or required conversions to Christianity...may God truly bless the 
    soul of that Pope.
    
    Cindy

Berenbaum noted that the homosexual was victimized twice.  Once, under
Nazi rule.  And again, when the war ended.  When the war ended, the
homosexual could not share the personal eyewitness account, could not
share the suffering endured, could not express the rage and pain, and
could not be memorialized like the millions of others.

This is why there are so few artifacts, so few memoirs connected with
the attempted annihilation of gays under Hitler.

A detail I didn't previously know: if a man imprisoned for the crime of
being homosexual could prove that he could function sexually with a woman,
he could be released.

Shalom,
Richard

The disabled and retarded were an embarrassment to those creating a
master race.

Hitler decided early on that some lives could be judged unworthy of
continuing.

Handicapped children, especially those under hospital care or otherwise
institutionalized, were relatively easy initial prey.  The parents or
guardians were simply told their child had become stricken with a
sudden illness and died.

Plans began to go went awry when, due to bureaucratic mix-ups, some
families received more sets of cremains (for they were all cremated)
than they had children who died.  Not unlike the victims of James Porter,
families contacted other families and their stories were identical.

Shalom,
Richard

    Only the Jews and Gypsies were gassed to death.
    
    Zyclon B proved to be an enormous economic savings, costing about �
    a cent per adult and inflicting death usually within 30 minutes.
    
    Richard
    

      Re: Cindy
     
>>    Now that's a *great* statement about what the spirit of Christianity
>>    vs. the law of Christianity is all about.

      Cindy, I don't understand this.  What is the law of Christianity?  I
      never heard of this since the law and christianity are incompatible 
      with one another.
               
-Jack
      

    Hypothetically, one could accuse the future Pope of situational ethics.
    Knowingly lying, both to the church and to the political authorities,
    about the religious affiliation of several people. I suppose it could
    be a blasphemy to some to allow Jews to use the name of Christ in vain.

    Eric

re Note 901.9 by APACHE::MYERS:

>     Hypothetically, one could accuse the future Pope of situational ethics.
>     Knowingly lying, both to the church and to the political authorities,
>     about the religious affiliation of several people. I suppose it could
>     be a blasphemy to some to allow Jews to use the name of Christ in vain.

        No, no, no -- only liberals can be accused of "situational
        ethics".  :-)

        (Of course, some people in the Church regarded John XXIII and
        what he did as heretically liberal.)

        Bob

re:  .8  Jack
     
>>    Now that's a *great* statement about what the spirit of Christianity
>>    vs. the law of Christianity is all about.

 >    Cindy, I don't understand this.  What is the law of Christianity?  I
 >    never heard of this since the law and christianity are incompatible 
 >    with one another.

Incompatible?  The ancient Israelite way was ruled by the Law.  The Christian
way is ruled by *principle*.  The rules of the Law forshadowed and taught the
*principles* of Christianity.  Think about it.


Steve

    Steve:
    
    "And Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness"
    
    "The righteous shall live by faith."  Ecclesiates
    
    The Ninevites repented at the preacing of Jonah and had no concept of
    the law whatsoever.
    
    Having laid a foundation of why I say they are incompatible, I now hope
    you understand why I believe in the incompatibility.  The only thing
    the law did was reveal our transgressions to us and our separation from
    God.
    
    If Christianity is a faith based belief, I ask again, please explain
    what the law of christianity is.
    
    Thanks,
    
    -Jack

    Paraphrasing a bit here:
    
    "The letter (of the law) killeth, but the spirit (of the law) giveth
    life."
    
    						- San Pablo
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

There was no budget for the government under Nazi rule for the concentration
camps, according to Berenbaum.  The program was to be entirely self-sustaining.

Big business would locate near the camps to draw upon a cheap source of labor.
The laborers did not see a paycheck from the businesses, however.  The pay
went to the SS and other agencies responsible for the welfare of the highly
disposable laborers.

In the process, the Nazis pioneered some unique recycling.  Human hair was
used in snow boots and as insulation in many other products.  Notice how many
shaved heads you see next time you see photos of Nazi concentration camps.
The Nazis also recycled gold from dental fillings and whatever else they
could.

The human -- better, the less desirable human -- was the disposable element
of the whole scheme.

Shalom,
Richard

re: Note 901.14 by Richard "Most Dangerous Child" 

Another example:  lampshades made of human skin.

*shudder*

Jim

   re:  .12  Jack

   >                                                      The only thing
   >the law did was reveal our transgressions to us and our separation from
   >God.
   
   As you know, only the ancient Israelites were bound by the Mosaic Law
   covenant.  Although Christians are not bound to it, there are principles
   in the Law that are beneficial to us.  After all, it is part of the in-
   spired Scriptures (see 2 Tim. 3:16, 17).

 
   >If Christianity is a faith based belief, I ask again, please explain
   >what the law of christianity is.
    
   Like I said before, Christians are not bound to a set of laws like the 
   Mosaic Law, but we are bound to principles found throughout Scripture.
   Matt. 22:37-39 would be a good place to start.


   Steve

    Rom 3:31  Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea,
    we establish the law.
    
    Mat 5:17-19   Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the
    prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say
    unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no
    wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore
    shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he
    shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall
    do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of
    heaven.
    
    So that Ten Commandment stuff... I'm not obliged to follow it?
    
    	Eric

    Another factoid about the death camps. An SS officer was the only one
    allowed to provide the gas to kill the people. The tablets were dropped
    into the chemical solution by the SS officer.
    
    Marc H.

	An interesting prophecy regarding the tangent discussion on law
	is Jeremiah 31:31-33 NWT "''Look! there are days days coming'' 
	is the utterance of Jehovah, ''and I will conclude with the house
	of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant; not one
	like the convenant that I concluded with their forefathers in 
	they day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them out of
	the land of Egypt, 'which convenant of mine they themselves
	broke, although I myself had husbandly ownership of them,' is
	the utterance of Jehovah. For this is the convenant that I shall
        conclude with the house of Israel after those days,'' is the
	utterance of Jehovah.''I will put my law with in them, and their
	heart I shall write it. And I will become their God, and they
	themselves will become my people.''"

	This prophesied that the Law covenant was to be done away with 
	and a new one inaugurated. Are Christians bound by this new
	covenant? also when a new constitution is introduced are all
	the previous laws removed, or just some changed?. For example,
	are Christians obliged to observe the command to love God with
	all their heart, strength, soul and mind?.

	In a new constitution new laws are passed, for Christians one such 
	would be Jesus' new commandment in John 13:34. The principle being 
	to show self-sacrificing love to ones spiritual brother. The irony 
	is that many professing Christians in Germany had not been taught 
	by their clergy this most important principal, instead the clergy 
	did the opposite and stirred their congregations to fight warfare
	against fellow believers in other lands (the clergy in the Ally 
	countries did likewise). However, there was a small group of people 
	who as a whole kept to their principles even in the face of death. 	
	Richard mentioned this group in reply .1 (thanks Richard their 
	example should not be forgotten), no doubt their God was pleased 
	with the faith they showed. 

	Who knows what might have happened if the predominately Christian
	German people had refused to go to war against fellow believers
	in other lands. Would the Holocaust have ever happened?. 

	Perhaps a topic might be opened as to how and what ways Christians 
	are accountable.

	Phil. 

re Note 901.19 by RDGENG::YERKESS:

> 	Who knows what might have happened if the predominately Christian
> 	German people had refused to go to war against fellow believers
> 	in other lands. Would the Holocaust have ever happened?. 

        This raises the interesting possibility of using Christian
        evangelization as a tool for pacifism.

        (Of course, many of the "flavors" of Christianity which are
        most active in evangelization also tend to minimize the
        application of Biblical anti-conflict teaching to
        relationship between nations.)

        Bob

re Note 901.19 by RDGENG::YERKESS:

> 	In a new constitution new laws are passed, for Christians one such 
> 	would be Jesus' new commandment in John 13:34. The principle being 
> 	to show self-sacrificing love to ones spiritual brother. 

        Unfortunately Christians from time to time come to the
        conclusion that destroying someone who is doing wrong IS an
        act of love (self-sacrificing if one risks one's own life to
        destroy the other).

        Besides, it is easy to rationalize away their being a
        spiritual brother or sister.  If they are doing wrong, then
        they can't be in spiritual communion with Christ, and hence
        aren't our spiritual sibling, right?

        Besides, if their theology is different than ours, if their
        "definition of Christianity" is unknown or different than
        ours, then we can easily conclude that they are not Christian
        at all!

        Bob

RE .21

  Bob,

; Unfortunately Christians from time to time come to the
; conclusion that destroying someone who is doing wrong IS an
; act of love (self-sacrificing if one risks one's own life to
; destroy the other).

 But they would only be deceiving themselves, Jesus set the
 pattern for self-sacrificing love.

; Besides, it is easy to rationalize away their being a
; spiritual brother or sister.  If they are doing wrong, then
; they can't be in spiritual communion with Christ, and hence
; aren't our spiritual sibling, right?

 There are many principles that should govern a Christian life, such
 as not to pay back evil for evil or reviling for reviling. The
 German Jehovah's Witnesses continued to subject themselves to the 
 authorities even under great provocation, but not to the extent of
 undermining their integrity to their God. They felt it wrong to kill
 fellow humans, so disobeyed the authorities in taking up arms and 
 kept their integrity to God. Jehovah God is impartial to people of all
 national groups and so should be Christians who imitate him, Acts 10:34,35.

; Besides, if their theology is different than ours, if their
; "definition of Christianity" is unknown or different than
; ours, then we can easily conclude that they are not Christian
; at all!

  One need not look further than Jesus' words in John 10:34,35, for
  he showed that non-Christians would recognise Christians in that
  they would show love amongst themselves. Such love would transcend
  national boundaries. But I always feel that at the end of the day, 
  it is Jehovah God's opinion is the one that matters and not someone 
  elses "definition of Christianity". 

  Phil.

    Those that can not understand how the german people could allow
    the hollocaust; should ask themselves how they feel about
    the killing in Africa or in Bosnia.
    
    Marc H.

    I don't think the German people allowed the Holocaust. I think they
    were powerless to prevent it. Or do you mean the Nazis?
    
    Incidently, I would like to recommend the book "The hiding place" by
    Corrie Ten Boom. She was a Christian woman sent to a concentration camp
    for sheltering Jews. 

    The same mindset unleashed in Rwanda exists in more sophisticated
    and technologically advanced form in the U.S..
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    (c) 1995 Copyright the News & Observer Publishing Co.

    (c) 1995 N.Y. Times News Service

    WASHINGTON (Jun 25, 1995 - 21:06 EDT) -- Transformed by homosexuals
    from a mark of Nazi persecution into an emblem of gay liberation, the
    pink triangle gained great currency but lost its link to personal
    experience.

    Today, after a half century, the symbol can be associated once again
    with one man's name, with his voice, with his story.

    Josef Kohout is the name; prisoner No. 1896, Block 6, at the
    Flossenburg concentration camp in Bavaria, near the Czech border. At
    the age of 24, he was arrested in Vienna as a homosexual outlaw after
    the Gestapo obtained a photograph he had inscribed to another young man
    pledging "eternal love."

    Liberated six years later by U.S. troops, Kohout returned to Vienna,
    where he died in 1994.

    Among his personal effects was a fragile strip of cloth, two inches
    long and less than an inch wide, with the numbers 1 8 9 6 on the right
    and a pink triangle on the left. It is the only one known to have been
    worn by a prisoner who can be identified, said Dr. Klaus Muller of the
    U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington.

    Together with Kohout's journal and the letters his parents wrote to the
    camp commander in a fruitless effort to visit him, the badge has been
    given to the museum by Kohout's companion.

    "I find it very important that the pink triangle is connected with the
    people who were forced to wear it," said Muller, the museum's project
    director for Western Europe.

    In its mission, the museum embraces not only the Jewish victims of the
    Holocaust, but other groups who were persecuted, like the Gypsies, the
    disabled, Jehovah's Witnesses and Russian prisoners of war.

    It has begun a $1.5 million campaign to locate homosexual survivors and
    document their experiences, following a suggestion from David B.
    Mixner, a corporate consultant in Los Angeles who is active in gay
    causes. The campaign coordinator, Debra S. Eliason, said $350,000 has
    been pledged so far.

    "Of the many places we never existed, certainly the Holocaust was one,
    in most people's minds," said Rep. Gerry E. Studds of Massachusetts,
    one of three openly gay members of Congress. "The supreme triumph in
    the last generation, in terms of the struggle of gay and lesbian
    people, is recognition of the simple fact that we exist."

    Patrons of the museum are given identification cards of victims to
    personalize the otherwise vast historical narrative, and of the victims
    identified in the cards, a handful were homosexuals.

    On his first visit, Studds received the card of Willem Arondeus, a
    homosexual Dutch resistance fighter who was killed in 1943. "For me to
    get that card was just stunning," Studds said.

    Kohout is not the only homosexual victim of Nazism whose presence is
    being felt. Gradually, at the twilight of their lives, a handful of
    survivors are stepping forward to press gingerly their own claims for
    recognition, having all but given up hope for restitution.

    "The world we hoped for did not transpire," said a declaration signed
    earlier this year by eight survivors, now living in Germany, France,
    Poland and the Netherlands. They called for the memorializing and
    documenting of Nazi atrocities against homosexuals and others.

    They pleaded for "the moral support of the public."

    The signers included Kurt von Ruffin, now 93, a popular actor and opera
    singer in Berlin during the 1930s who was sent to the Lichtenburg camp
    in Prettin, and Friedrich-Paul von Groszheim, 89, who was arrested,
    released, rearrested, tortured, castrated, released, rearrested and
    imprisoned in the Neuengamme camp at Lubeck.

    Between 10,000 and 15,000 homosexuals may have been incarcerated in the
    camps, Muller said, out of approximately 100,000 men who were arrested
    under Paragraph 175 of the German criminal code, which called for the
    imprisonment of any "male who commits lewd and lascivious acts with
    another male." (The law was silent on lesbianism, although individual
    instances of persecutions of lesbians have been recorded.)

    Perhaps 60 percent of those in the camps died, Muller said, meaning
    that even in 1945, there may have been only 4,000 survivors. Today,
    Muller knows of fewer than 15.

    Their travails did not end at liberation. They were still officially
    regarded as criminals, rather than as political prisoners, since
    Paragraph 175 remained in force in West Germany until 1969.

    They were denied reparations and the years they spent in the camps were
    deducted from their pensions. Some survivors were even jailed again.

    Old enough to be grandfathers and great-grandfathers, the survivors
    scarcely courted attention as homosexuals, having learned all too well
    the perils of notoriety. "It is not easy to tell a story you were forced
    to hide for 50 years," Muller said.

    One of the first men to break his silence was the anonymous "Prisoner
    X. Y.," who furnished a vividly detailed account of life as a
    homosexual inmate in the 1972 book, "The Men With the Pink Triangle,"
    by Heinz Heger, which was reissued last year by Alyson Publications.

    By a coincidence that still astonishes him, Muller said, Prisoner X. Y.
    -- "the best documented homosexual inmate of a camp" -- turned out to
    be Kohout.

    After his arrest in 1939, Kohout was taken to the Sachsenhausen camp
    and served at the Klinker brickworks, which he called "the 'Auschwitz'
    for homosexuals." Prisoners who were not beaten to death could easily
    be killed by heavy carts barreling down the steep incline of the clay
    pits.

    In 1940, he was transferred to Flossenburg. On Christmas Eve 1941
    inmates were made to sing carols in front of a 30-foot-high Christmas
    tree on the parade ground. Flanking it were gallows from which eight
    Russian prisoners had been hanging since morning.

    "Whenever I hear a carol sung -- no matter how beautifully -- I
    remember the Christmas tree at Flossenburg with its grisly
    'decorations,' " he wrote.

    Kohout died in March 1994, at the age of 79. A month later, in an
    apartment in Vienna, his surviving companion submitted to an interview
    by Muller, who had tracked him down through a gay group in Austria and
    pressed him for more and more information.

    As Muller recalled it, the companion finally said: "If you're so
    interested in all these details, I have some material in two boxes and,
    honestly, I didn't have the strength to go through it because I'm still
    struggling with his death. But if you want to, we could look at these."

    The first thing the companion unpacked was Kohout's pink triangle
    badge. The first thing Dr. Muller thought was, "This is impossible."

    "We had searched for a pink triangle for years," he said, "one that
    would not only document the Nazi marking system but also could be
    reconstructed as a part of one individual story."

    The triangle itself is still in storage, but part of Kohout's journal
    is now on display at the museum. It is the page on which he wrote
    simply of his liberators' arrival on April 24, 1945: "Amerikaner
    gekommen."