| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 894.1 | | DPDMAI::DAWSON | I've seen better times | Sun Apr 10 1994 22:29 | 29 |
| RE: .0
Richard, I'm a little unsure what direction you are taking
this issue so I'm going to strike out in one that I feel comfortable.
Its interesting the innuendoes and misperceptions around a
"successful" counseling sessions. Dr. Collins, in his book "Christian
Psychology", states a quote from the president of the American Psychology
Association saying "75% of all counseling sessions are unsucessful". The
rest of his book goes about trying to understand why this is and is far too
complicated and lengthy to fully relate here. But his primary contention
is that Christianity and modern day Psychology are not necessarily
incompatible. Many times it is the counselor whose agenda gets played out
while the patient is left with none of his or her issues truly being
addressed. Other times it is the patient who decides to "fog" the actual
issue with side issues without really addressing the primary issue that is
causing the problem. Whatever the reason, sessions are *NOT* the cure all
that most believe they should be. And lets also understand that there are
as many different beliefs among the psychologists as there are psychologists.
Since I am looking forward to working in psychology as my
lifes work (specializing in sexual abuse), the combining of Christian values
and the tenets of modern psychology are paramount to me. While many in the
Church might feel that my desire is an oxymoron, I have found quite the
opposite is true...at least for me. :-)
Dave
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| 894.2 | | AKOCOA::FLANAGAN | honor the web | Mon Apr 11 1994 10:48 | 11 |
| Dave,
I agree with you. Christian Values and Psychology are a wonderful mix.
I believe that any attempt at Pychotherapy that ignores the spiritual
component is doomed to failure. Trying to use strictly Biblical
Theology may be difficult though because so many people needing therapy
have been wounded by churches and religions calling themselves
"Christian" That is why 12 step programs introduce a concept of a
Higher Power but not necessarily a Christian Higher Power. Once a
person's sense of spiritually has been renewed, then they may be ready
to accept a specific Christian teaching.
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| 894.3 | | DPDMAI::DAWSON | I've seen better times | Mon Apr 11 1994 10:56 | 9 |
| Patricia,
I like how you put that. It *IS* a process. Even those
who accept Jesus as their personal Savior go through a process to get
to the point of needing a "Savior". Thank you. :-)
Dave
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| 894.4 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Most Dangerous Child | Mon Apr 11 1994 14:34 | 18 |
| .1 Dave,
I have wasted a lot of money and time in the company of professional
counselors. It is not an exact science and you can get more for your
money by buying a pair of shoes. In case you haven't gathered, I feel
the psychologists I've dealt with have added nothing to my life. Your
mileage may vary.
I've also noticed that modern psychologists do not question the
status quo, that they also have bought into the obtuse paradigm that
getting that Beemer is a sign of success and fulfillment.
Now, don't get the wrong idea. I'm not in favor of discarding
psychology altogether. However, I don't believe it should be sold as
a panacea, the answer to all life's problems.
Shalom,
Richard
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| 894.5 | | TFH::KIRK | a simple song | Mon Apr 11 1994 15:06 | 16 |
| re: Note 894.4 by Richard "Most Dangerous Child"
> I have wasted a lot of money and time in the company of professional
> counselors. It is not an exact science and you can get more for your
> money by buying a pair of shoes. In case you haven't gathered, I feel
> the psychologists I've dealt with have added nothing to my life. Your
> mileage may vary.
Hmm, coupling that with Nancy's view of therapists, all I can say is that my
experiences have gotten much better mileage. .-) Maybe there's some
difference between New England and Colorado. Maybe it's the thin air and
solar radiation up there. .-)
Peace,
Jim
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| 894.6 | Nancy's somewhere in California | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Most Dangerous Child | Mon Apr 11 1994 15:11 | 9 |
| .5 It's the radiation from the Rocky Flats Nuclear Weapons plant
I'm more concerned about. ;-)
Please understand, I'm not completely down on psychology or
psychologists.
Shalom,
Richard
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| 894.7 | The Good, the Bad, and the Confused | TFH::KIRK | a simple song | Mon Apr 11 1994 15:20 | 19 |
| re: Note 894.6 by Richard "Most Dangerous Child" >
> Please understand, I'm not completely down on psychology or
> psychologists.
I understand that. And I agree, it is not a "hard" science.
There are good & bad out there. I recommend to anyone who is looking for a therapist
to shop around and find someone you can trust and find compatable. Remember,
they work for �you�!
There are practitioners of every faith, there are faith-neutral practitioners
and there may be faith-hostile therapists as well (though I don't know of
any, I think such a stance would be detrimental to their practice.)
Peace,
Jim
p.s. I found my current therapist through the help of my parish priest.
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| 894.8 | copied from the Happiness note | TFH::KIRK | a simple song | Tue Apr 12 1994 09:25 | 93 |
| <<< LGP30::DKA300:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN-PERSPECTIVE.NOTE;1 >>>
-< Discussions from a Christian Perspective >-
================================================================================
Note 892.17 Happiness 17 of 32
JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" 87 lines 8-APR-1994 14:57
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.15
Amen Alfred! I believe you hit the nail on the head. This world's
psychology and many eastern religions teach that self is the key to
deeper understandings. I believe this to be a very dangerous partial
truth [imho]. Self actualization often times crosses over the line
between self awareness [or poor in Spirit] to a godself false
awareness... "I am in control, I am all knowing, I am empowered", are
often statements that are given by therapists to people who have
wounded spirits. These are the statements that create a self-god
prophecy/fulfillment that mis-directs the spiritual side. Satan has a
hayday with this mentality. He then gives folks the nirvana they've
been looking for, the feeling of empowerment, the feeling of
in-control, the feeling of fulfillment... and tells them they now have
a "deeper" understanding, a new spiritual plane has been obtained. He
then goes further to insert, well the blame for your behavior actually
lies elsewhere, let's blame Mom, Dad, Past lives, etc., for how you
behave today...
This again leaves folks feeling like a weight has been lifted off their
shoulders and that this euphoria has to be of God, because it feels
good [no matter how you define God now, for he certainly has a broader
meaning then Jehovah or Jesus, because you now have a deeper
understanding]. The thing that really gets me here is that now people
are spending their time, money and efforts into deeper self awarenesses
and deeper empowerment and its non-ending. The therapists, false
religious leaders get their moneybags full, while leading a group of
people straight to Hell.
My God shall supply *all* my needs. Proverbs 16:3 Commit they works
unto the Lord and thy *thoughts* shall be established.
Be not forgetful, God is not mocked, whatsoever a man sows that shall
he also reap.
If we confess our sins he is *faithful* and just to *forgive* us our
sins.
Granted what happens with a lot of people who have abusive or abandoned
backgrounds is that they have taken some sin upon themselves that they
DO NOT OWN. But that does NOT relieve a person from their own sins.
OWNERSHIP awareness is the key to God's inner healing, which is
permanent, not temporary. Example:
My father sexually molested me... thought process as a child and into
adulthood: "I am the one to blame, something must be wrong with me. I
am bad." Later on become sexually promiscuous... this is sin.
Therapist, "Well it's only natural that you would have acted out this
way since your sexuality was stimulated so young."
Thus a person feels validated... exonerated from their behavior. Now
they can change that behavior because they no longer feel guilt or
blame or take responsibility for said actions. WRONG! It will happen
again until you acknowledge that the only control you really have is
over your choices to sin or not sin... God can direct the rest.
Our will should be in submission to His will.
I was promiscuous because I allowed the power of sexuality to be my
god.
This produces several scenarios and they may even seem contradictory,
but they are very valid and happen:
False Beliefs:
1. I am promiscuous, blame my father, never can get forgiveness or
victory because, I don't own it... yet I own it. So, I'm in an
emotional tug-o-war.
2. I am promiscuous, blame myself, never can get forgiveness for it,
because I don't own it. period.
We need to OWN what we OWN and discard the rest to whomever owns it...
Then FORGIVE... Forgiveness is the ONLY way to Heal and we must be able
to not only forgive others, but allow God's forgiveness to wrap around
our hearts and forgive ourselves.
Folks the only HEALING that truly happens is through Jesus Christ's
blood on the cross. It covers everything.
In His Love,
Nancy
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| 894.9 | copied from the Happiness note | TFH::KIRK | a simple song | Tue Apr 12 1994 09:26 | 47 |
| <<< LGP30::DKA300:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN-PERSPECTIVE.NOTE;1 >>>
-< Discussions from a Christian Perspective >-
================================================================================
Note 892.27 Happiness 27 of 32
TFH::KIRK "a simple song" 40 lines 8-APR-1994 21:36
-< yes and no >-
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re: Note 892.17 by Nancy "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze"
*sigh* the psychology issue again. (maybe that should be *psygh* .-)
Nancy, I don't know where you found the therapists you worked with, but your
description of what they do is quite outside the norm.
>"I am in control, I am all knowing, I am empowered"
I have never heard a psycologist tell anyone that they are in control or all
knowing. I have had then work with peple to discover their internam selves,
but that is FAR from being in control or all knowing. They try to help people
empower themselves, which basically boils down to having a clear and honest
view of themselves. Not buried in shame, not egotistical. Just honest.
> Granted what happens with a lot of people who have abusive or abandoned
> backgrounds is that they have taken some sin upon themselves that they
> DO NOT OWN. But that does NOT relieve a person from their own sins.
Yes. A good psychologist will work with a person to sift out what they own
and what they do not own.
> We need to OWN what we OWN and discard the rest to whomever owns it...
Again, YES. That is what a good psychologist will help a person do.
> Then FORGIVE... Forgiveness is the ONLY way to Heal and we must be able
> to not only forgive others, but allow God's forgiveness to wrap around
> our hearts and forgive ourselves.
I agree 100 %.
> Folks the only HEALING that truly happens is through Jesus Christ's
> blood on the cross. It covers everything.
For Christians, yes.
Peace,
Jim
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| 894.10 | copied from the Happiness note | TFH::KIRK | a simple song | Tue Apr 12 1994 09:27 | 97 |
| <<< LGP30::DKA300:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN-PERSPECTIVE.NOTE;1 >>>
-< Discussions from a Christian Perspective >-
================================================================================
Note 892.29 Happiness 29 of 32
JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" 68 lines 9-APR-1994 18:01
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self control is not an issue, but control over everything is...
We can no more control everything in our lives as we can the weather.
Well, try sitting through some of John Bradshaw's sessions and you'll
see all kinds of versions of EMPOWERMENT beyond decision making,
CONTROL beyond behaviors, and KNOWLEDGE that creates the aura of
superiority through the deeper things...
One of the practices that is contra-biblical in my estimation, is the
concept of RE-Parenting.... where one goes into a hypnotic state
relives a trauma, emotion, etc., that left a scar and then reparents
onesself in the right way... after all we all know what is best for
ourselves or what would have felt better.
This puts self in the place of God. I have no problem with reliving
the situation if it is still a problem in your life or a root issue
causing sin to reign in your life, but God is the Father of all the
most just, all compassionate, loving Father.
Let's look at what God's word says after we've discovered the root and
determine what the correct action if any should have happened.
Example: Stepsister takes littler sister out for a walk. She's 15 and
is really annoyed at having an 8 year old tagging on her heels. She
then meets up with one of her friends who wants to have a smoke, but
doesn't want the 8 year old around to tell her father. So she tells
the 8 year old to go home. The 8 year old says No, we're supposed to
walk to the river and then back home. The 15 year old slaps the 8 year
old in the face and walks away. As the 8 year old heads back she turns
and sees the 15 year old smoking.
The 8 year old is angry, scared, hurt and finds a hideaway. She sits
hidden in a bush in the back alley of where she lives... sometimes
crying, sometimes lethargic, hours pass, it begins to get dark. She
hears her Mom's worried voice calling her. Finally emerges with the 15
year old standing next to her father and the 8 year's old Mom looks
relieved as her daughter comes out.
The questions begin,they go into their house. The stepfather sits
across from his wife and her daughter. They've already heard the 15
years old story of the 8 year old running away from her.
As the little girl begins to say the truth, the stepfather jumps up off
his seat backhands the little girl in the mouth, knocks her on the
floor and her mouth begins to bleed. He begins screaming at her that
she's a little LIAR!
The 8 year old girl begins to shake and vomit, she feels as though her
head will pop off, she HATES this man, she wishes she was big enough to
kill him... then she looks at her mother who is 7 months pregnant and
tells her she HATES her too for marrying this man.
The man then grabs the girl throws her into the bedroom and locks the
door from the outside.
All of this little girl's life this experience created an anger inside
of her a sense of being out of control and unsafe. She grew to be
angry and controlling.
In the therapists office...hypnosis, the experience relived, then the
therapists suggestion of reparenting oneself... She begins to hold the
little girl, to tell her she was good and truthful and worthy of love.
This sounds good doesn't it? But can anyone else besides me see the
error in this process?
================================================================================
Note 892.30 Happiness 30 of 32
TFH::KIRK "a simple song" 9 lines 11-APR-1994 09:13
-< I think the topic is "Happiness" >-
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RE: Note 892.29 by Nancy "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze"
Briefly, you see replacement of God, I see partnership with God.
But we've been through this discussion before. 'nuf said by me.
Peace,
Jim
================================================================================
Note 892.31 Happiness 31 of 32
JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" 5 lines 11-APR-1994 11:08
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.30
Very accurate understanding of our differing views.
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| 894.11 | re: last 3 | TFH::KIRK | a simple song | Tue Apr 12 1994 09:28 | 8 |
| re: last 3...
After discussion with Nancy, we decided this string segment was applicable to
both topics.
Peace,
Jim
|