Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

When my parents, who were Methodist missionaries, were in Africa they
didn't drink out of respect for the custom of the local church, but in the
States they drank beer, wine, etc.  They told me that one reason the Methodist
church in Africa was opposed to drinking was that many African men would
get drunk in the beer halls, squandering the family's money, getting into
fights and (I would guess) physically abusing their wives and children.

				-- Bob

 Up until the time I recommitted my life to Christ (about 15 months ago) I
 made my own beer and frankly enjoyed it.  However, it was my conviction that
 I could no longer do so and call myself a Christian.  Nobody told me I had
 to, and being a member of a Baptist church I have *never* heard a sermon 
 telling me I cannot have a beer or glass of wine or whatever.  For me it
 became a personal conviction.  I like to be ready to share the gospel with
 anyone at any time, and for me, I simply cannot do so having consumed alcoholic
 beverages.



 I do the best I can not to judge others who do have a drink now and then, but
 for me, it is an extreme rarity.  



 Jim

    
    
    I'd have prefered the question be asked differently.  "Is it
    non-Christian to drink alcohol?"  My answer, vehemently, "no".
    
       GJD

Hi all.

To answer the question, (and I like the way Greg re-worded it) I don't believe
that it is unChristian to imbibe in adult beverages.  I don't believe anything
the Lord God created is inherently (did I spell that right?) wrong.  Man, however
has the power to pervert what God created.  

I think as Christians, we must constantly be aware of our surroundings and use
our head when it comes to alcohol.  Their are several "gray" areas that the 
Bible states must be sorted out individually.  Drinking alcohol, from all that I
have read, falls into this category.  We must be extremely careful about being
condemnatory (is THAT a word?) in these gray areas.  

Paul cautions us about causing weaker brothers and sisters in the faith to 
stumble because of our action. Could our drinking cause someone who is weaker 
than we are to become alcoholic?  Could it cause someone to abuse what God has
created?  It could.  That is why I say we must be aware of where we are and what
we do in public.  As Christians, we live by a higher standard than the rest of 
the world.

Jim()

( Hi Greg!  How ya doin'?  For the record, you're still the only Edu. person 
worth his salt in this company... )

>>( Hi Greg!  How ya doin'?  For the record, you're still the only Edu. person 
>>worth his salt in this company... )
    
    How do you draw "the face" for an embarrassed, bald guy?
       
       8-)

RE : <<< Note 889.5 by POBOX::DIERCKS "We will have Peace! We must!!!!" >>>

Before I draw the deserved wrath of any other Edu. person who may be reading
this notesfile, I meant to say that Greg is the only Edu. guy I have had the 
privilege of having as the instructor.  He is truly very knowledgeable in his
field. 

I didn't mean to exclude people because I know there has to be good teachers
in this company, but I seem to draw the ones who know less than me sometimes.

Jim()

My church (Episcopalian) celebrates the Eucharist every Sunday, with wine and 
wafers.  Now, people just take a little sip or intinct (dip the wafer into the 
wine), so wine is used as an active part of the celebration.  I know some 
churches substitute grape juice, and I have heard from some people that in 
Biblical times what they called wine was not fermented/alcohol free.  I 
disagree with that interpretation.

Some people in my parish refuse the wine, for personal reasons.  They are 
still considered partakers of celebration.

Our pastor does not allow any other alcohol consumption on church grounds, 
whether sponsored by an activity of the congregation or some group that is
renting the hall. I don't believe that is an Episcopalian policy, I believe it
is a prudent and responsible policy.  (/john, do you know of any such church 
policy?)

There are some people who cannot drink a little without drinking a lot.  For 
them it is dangerous to drink wine, beer, or any other alcoholic beverage.
I see that as a personal issue, not a Christian issue.

I cannot drink because of medication I am taking, however even without that 
reason, I very rarely drink alcoholic drinks.  (maybe a glass of wine 1 or 2 
times a year.)

Peace,

Jim

    The Bible gives all sorts of examples of drinking wine. Jesus made
    it for a marriage celebration. The Bible does warn about the risks
    of strong drink as well. I think, in moderation, God doesn't have a
    problem with it.

    There are other individual issues though. I have a close friend who
    is a social worker. Though he never had a problem with alcohol he
    works counseling many who do. One day one of those people asked him
    when he gave up alcohol. He had to reply that he hadn't. This hurt
    his credibility because he was asking the other person, who did have
    a drinking problem, to stop drinking all together. My friend hasn't
    had a drink since. For him, drinking would be wrong because it
    conflicts with his ministry. The same can be said for others I'm sure.

    For me the major concern is how does it effect ones witness. I don't
    drink the stuff mainly because I've never found *anything* that tastes
    as bad as beverages with alcohol in them. I had a lot of friends as a
    teenager who got drunk a lot. This has made me somewhat uncomfortable
    with people drinking and very uncomfortable with people who get drunk.
    But I think that's personal not religious.

    			Alfred

    I myself feel, as a previous reply said, that everything given to us
    by God is good. Moderation is and always will be the key to life.
    
    Wether it's sex, beer, wine, music, even shooting firearms, each thing
    in it self is not bad. Excess, though, is wrong.
    
    For some, the substance can't be done in moderation ( Poe the author
    would become drunk on one glass of wine), and total abstinance is
    needed. For many, though, sucessfull life means moderation.
    
    Marc H.

    Alcholism and drug addiction are one of the greatest sins affecting the
    world today and probably for all times.
    
    How do we answer this question in light of Paul's quote, If my eating
    meat causes my brother to sin then I will not eat meat.  Would he not
    say, If my drinking alcohol causes my brother to sin, then I will not
    drink alcohol.  
    
    A large number of people in our society should never drink alcohol. 
    Can non alcoholics drink alcohol in a way that does not encourage
    alcoholics to also partake?
    
    Can a church responsibly use alcohol in a eucharist celebration without
    providing a non alcoholic drink as well?
    
    Is my right to drink alcohol more important than the right of all those
    whose lifes that are shattered by alcohol encouraged by an eat, drink,
    and be merry culture?
    
    For what good reason should I need to drink alcohol?
    
    I raise all these question as a person who enjoys partaking in a bottle
    of wine occasionally.
    
    Alcoholism and drug abuse are the most prevalent destroyers of family
    morality in the U.S. and probably the world today.
    
    Patricia
    
    Patricia

 Great note, Patricia..





 Jim

    
    
    In may church, Prince of Peace Lutheran in Schaumburg, IL, I often
    assist the Pastors in serving communion.  The pastor serves the wafer
    and performs the blessing of the non-communing children and the
    assisting serves the wine.  We have, on the altar, an addition cup with
    grape juice for those that desire it.  It is very plainly stated in the
    order of worship that those who are interested can have the grape juice
    just by asking.  The default is wine.
    
       GJD

    Wow Patricia, something we really agree 100% on.... Thanks for writing
    that. :-)

    RE: .10
    
    I do not agree at all. My basic problem with the line of reasoning
    is that because someone has an addiction to a substance....alcohol
    , sex, meat, etc., then you have to give up the same substance,
    not because you have a problem with the stuff, but to be helpful
    to the other person.
    
    I claim that it doesn't help the person with the addiction, and it
    deprives me of my right to enjoy a gift from God.
    
    Yes, alcohol has ruined many a life, but, it hasn't an will not
    ruinen mine.
    
    Marc H.

re:  Note 889.14 by Marc "I'm the NRA" 

>    I do not agree at all. My basic problem with the line of reasoning
>    is that because someone has an addiction to a substance....alcohol
>    , sex, meat, etc., then you have to give up the same substance,
>    not because you have a problem with the stuff, but to be helpful
>    to the other person.

I mostly agree.  I've had difficulty with Paul's statement of being "all
things to all people".  I don't think that is possible for anyone except 
God and I think it is an unhealthy thing to attempt.

>    Yes, alcohol has ruined many a life, but, it hasn't an will not
>    ruinen mine.                                        ~~
         ~~
Gee, Marc, slurred speech this early in the morning?  What have you been 
drinking?  .-) .-) .-)

Peace,

Jim

    Mark,

    I don't think Patricia was suggesting that because some people in the
    world are alcoholic you should abstain from alcohol at all times. Is
    that what you thought? The point is that if on some occasion when you
    drink you were to cause -- or tempt -- another person to sin (ie fall
    off the wagon) then it is your duty to abstain from drinking *at that
    time*. Do you disagree with this?
    
    God gives us no "right" to tempt another person... 

    Eric

    Re: .15
    
    Ha Ha.....that's pretty good. Jim. 
    
    
    Re: .Patricia
    
    You know, another reason that I don't accept your approach has to do
    with censorship.
    
    During the early 70's, I had many a debate with people over
    pornography. I found that many people would claim that the sight
    of naked people would turn normal people into raving rapists
    or unfaithful wives/husbands. But, the worst part was that 
    *they* and only *them* would decide what you saw....i.e. they knew
    what was best for you.
    
    Nothing gets me more angry than for someone to decide what I can
    do/see/read.
    
    I really think that the next step by the people that would ban
    alcohol would be to censor books.
    
    Curious twist...a "conservative" NRA member arguing for personal
    freedoms with tradition "liberal" people.
    
    Marc H.

    RE: .16
    
    I agree ....that just sounds like simple courtesy.
    
    Marc H.

       
   > How do we answer this question in light of Paul's quote, If my eating
   > meat causes my brother to sin then I will not eat meat.  Would he not
   > say, If my drinking alcohol causes my brother to sin, then I will not
   > drink alcohol.  
    
    
     What Patricia said here is precisely why I rarely drink.  I love to
     share what Jesus Christ has done in my life with other people.  I have
     a number of people with whom I have been sharing the Lord and one of the
     reasons these folks are listening to me is that they knew me while in
     my backslidden state and they can see that my life has been changed.
     Now, if one of those folks should wander into a bar and see me sitting 
     there having a couple of beers, there is the potential of them seeing
     me as hypocritical..."hey, that guy says he's changed, but he's still
     drinking..heck, I bet he's still smoking pot, etc etc"..my concern for
     their souls is far more overpowering than my need to have a beer or 2.

     I don't think censorship is the issue.  I have no desire to ban the
     sale/consumption of alcohol, and as much as I detest pornography (to
     which I was once addicted) and would like to not see it around, I don't
     advocate banning it.  Hearts must be changed from the inside out, not
     outside in.



    Jim

    re .13
    
    Nancy
    
    That's great news.
    
    Patricia

    Patricia:
    
    I agree with you also...great note!
    
    Ron