Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

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Note 856.51            Candlemas II - continued discussion              51 of 53
AKOCOA::FLANAGAN "honor the web"                     26 lines  18-FEB-1994 10:18
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    RE 856.49 & .50
    
    That is a good point.  The interplay between Gnosticism and
    Christianity during the development of Christianity is fascinating.
    I need to read Elaine Pagel's book on Gnosticism and perhaps we can
    open a discussion on Gnosticism and hope we can have a balanced
    discussion.  I did browse through the earlier discussion on the Gnostic
    Gospels and did not find it balanced at all.
    
    There are some really good things about gnosticism and many of them
    have found their way into Christianity.   Ultimately though I too
    believe that gnosticism is wrong in that its dualism between material
    and spiritual, Good and Evil, body and spirit, dark and light is wrong.
    As a Universalist, I too agree with Bob's comments.  Gnosis, secretly
    revealed to a few does not square with my beliefs.
    
    There is much in Paul's writing that shares ideas with gnosticism. I do
    recognize and appreciate Paul's genius in incorporating the best of those 
    ideas into his writing while always drawing the line and discarding the
    gnostic rejection of the body and material world.
    
    Paul has sometimes been unfairly considered a gnostic.
    
    The Gospel of John is the Gospel that I know the least about, and will
    eventually catch up and study it.  It too most likely has its gnostic 
    influence.

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Note 856.52            Candlemas II - continued discussion              52 of 53
COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert"                       8 lines  18-FEB-1994 10:42
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>    
>    Paul has sometimes been unfairly considered a gnostic.
>    

Considering Paul a gnostic is as unfair as applying the gnostic label to
those who adhere to and proclaim traditional Christian doctrine.

/john

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Note 856.53            Candlemas II - continued discussion              53 of 53
AKOCOA::FLANAGAN "honor the web"                     12 lines  18-FEB-1994 10:57
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    Actually, those who consider Paul a gnostic will point to Paul's
    theology of separating the Body and the Spirit as supporting their
    claim.  It takes a fairly sophisticated understanding of what Paul says
    about the Body, the Flesh, and the Spirit to understand the
    similarities and difference from gnosticism.    When Paul speaks of
    God's wisdom as secret and hidden and revealed only to those who are
    spiritual, he is using a gnostic concept.  There are gnostic influences
    in traditional Christian doctrine.  That does not mean that
    Christianity and Gnosticism are equal.  It means that they were
    developing at the same time from the same Hellenistic worldview.
    
    Patricia

    Also see topic 218, "Gnostic Gospels"
    
    Richard
    

    
    In a brave display of ignorance, I have to ask: what's a Gnostic?

    Eric

    An early splinter of Christianity, influenced in some measure by
    what were called "mystery religions."
    
    Gnostics claimed to have secret knowledge.  Gnosis means knowledge.
    From it we derive words such as diagnosis, prognosis, and even agnostic
    (without knowing).
    
    A major disagreement with orthodox Christianity was that Jesus, Gnostics
    claimed, was not a flesh and blood human, but spirit.  And therefore,
    Jesus didn't really die on the cross, since he was really something
    akin to being an angel.
    
    This is really an inadequate explanation, but it should get you
    started.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard

    Thanks a ton, Richard. Did Gnostisism pre-date Jesus or was it a side
    effect to His ministry.  That is, were the original gnostics
    contemporaries of Jesus' that just sort of missed the point a bit.
    (Sort of like "The Life of Brian")
    
    Eric

    .7
    
    Gnosticism seems to have popped up after Jesus.  This is not to say
    that the seeds of Gnosticism weren't there well in advance.
    
    The 3 letters (epistles) of John in the New Testament are really
    anti-gnostic arguments.  A lot of folks don't realize this.
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    

    There is a scholastic disagreement regarding whether Gnosticism
    predated Christianity, postdated Christianity or was contemporary with
    it.  I would not say that it was an outgrowth of Christianity though
    although some scholars see it that way.
    
    Patricia

    re  Note 861.6 by CSC32::J_CHRISTIE

    // A major disagreement with orthodox Christianity was that Jesus, Gnostics
    // claimed, was not a flesh and blood human, but spirit.  And therefore,
    // Jesus didn't really die on the cross, since he was really something
    // akin to being an angel.

    Ok, that's a start. I thought Gnostisism was a whole mystic/theological
    thing unto itself. Kind of a funky pagan, druid, mysterious, secret
    hand shake thing. Can someone expound a little more on the differences
    between Gnostic and Christian belief systems.

    Thanks,

    Eric

    There are many different Gnostic orientations that share some common
    characteristics.  Most believe that the real world of Goodness is the
    spiritual world.  A fallen God; am evil God created the material world
    which is inherently evil.  Humanity is evil but there is a spark of
    divinity that remains in a remnant of humanity.  The goal of life is to
    escape from the evil physical body and unite with the spiritual
    divinity.  A redeemer, savoir often comes in human form to reveal the
    mystery of the spark of goodness within human kind and teach them the
    way to spiritual salvation.  As there are many different Gnostic
    Gospels they are each a little different.  some are closer to
    Christianity than others.  Gnosticism like Christianity  arose out of
    the culture of the time which included Stoicism, other Hellenistic
    philosophies, Mystery Religions, social disruption and alienation.
    
    My readings have been very limited and tend to be negative.  Some
    feminist theologians believe that Gnosticism was subverted and cast in
    a negative mode because women had a much greater role in Gnosticism
    than in the early Catholic Church.  Elaine Pagel has written a well
    known book on the Gnostic Gospels.  I have the book but have not found
    the time to read it yet.
    
    Patricia

    Wasn't a former DEC individual, Playtoe, into this area? 
    
    Marc H.

    As you can see, Gnosticism can be quite complicated.
    
    Sometimes Gnostic factions vehemently opposed each other.  Some
    Gnostics were ascetic, others hedonistic.  Most were neither.
    
    On the positive side, Gnostics were early to recognize and honor
    the spiritual gifts of women and even children.  Women shared the
    priesthood with men and were accepted as bishops.
    
    Peace,
    Richard

    Playtoe was into *something*... whatever it was, it was anything but
    conventional.

    Eric 

    .12  Yes, Playtoe (aka Stephen Dothard?) was a defender of Gnosticism.
    At least, his brand of Gnosticism.
    
    Richard
    

    Thanks, Patricia. That helped me get my bearings.

    Eric

    The Pauline scripture refering to the 'mystery' being revealed does
    not mean that there is a hidden revelation. Jesus Christ is THE
    Revelation and we are given the Word of scripture and the teaching
    authority of the Church to understand the Revelation. JESUS is THE
    Word. 
    
    Now, then what is the mystery? Well, Jesus came and died on the cross
    and then rose from the dead and ascended to the Father. He remains 
    with us in the sacramental life of the Church and through His Spirit.
    The Revelation is already fully given and fully available. That is, 
    there is no heirarchy of secrets that are kept from view until a 
    person reaches a certain level. However, to recognize the fullness of
    the mystery of what it means that God became Incarnate and died for
    us and redeemed us, although fully before us, is not understood
    except by entering upon the Way. [Jesus Christ, the Way, the Truth,
    and the Life.]
    
    Jesus told his disciples that they had seen what Kings wished to see
    but did not see. He told those he spoke to that 'those who have ears,
    hear', 'those who can see, see'. All of those who did not see or hear
    were equated with a stubborn pride which blinded their ability to
    see and hear. 
    
    It is common in stories of conversion that the converts will remark
    that scripture was like greek to them until their conversion and then
    they were suddenly able to understand and see the great Wisdom and
    Truth of God therein. We all know the key Christian verses, "God so
    loved the world that he sent His Only Begotton Son...." We know,
    converted and unconverted alike, know the circumstances of Jesus'
    life and what the Church and scripture claims about his life, death
    and ressurrection. It is all revealed, but it remains a mystery to
    those who do not seek or turn to God or accept His grace of 
    conversion. 
    
    The Gnostics feel they have discovered some hidden meaning or perhaps
    even have hidden revelations which they believe can be discovered
    through certain formulas or rituals. [This is sketchy with me so it
    might not be accurate....] If I recall a program on religion a few
    years back I think the Gnostics also used sexual acts their rituals
    as a means of 'unlocking' the mysteries.
    
    This understanding of the Gnostic beliefs or practices might not be
    accurate. My reply is really meant to explain the meaning behind
    Paul's words about the mystery. God has given His complete and 
    perfect Revelation to mankind in Jesus Christ; it is not hidden,
    but it is a complete mystery to those who are blind to it through
    pride. Also, the great depths of Christ are not known except as
    we follow Him. This is not because it is hidden, but because it
    takes the work of the Holy Spirit of sanctification for us to
    understand fully. None of this is occurs through hidden rituals
    or knowledge, but by the sanctifying grace of accepting and living
    with and in Christ and allowing His Spirit to act in us.
    
    Peace,
    
    Mary
    

It's hard to be accurate about Gnosticism because it has taken so many
forms.  As mentioned earlier, some forms involved bizarre sexual rituals,
others forbade all sexual activity whatsoever.

The Bu�uel movie, "The Milky Way", presents a long series of heresies,
including many forms of gnosticism.  Bu�uel is quite peculiar; he closed
his autobiography with the sentence, "Still an atheist after all these
years, thank God."  If you see the movie, remember that it presents
heresy after heresy, not authentic Christianity.

/john

    // It's hard to be accurate about Gnosticism because it has taken so many
    // forms.

    This difficulty in pin-pointing exactly what is Gnosticism, is leading
    me to believe that everything that was not clearly Jewish or clearly
    Christian was(is?) lumped in this bag called "Gnostic." Is Islam
    Gnosticism, for example? If not, why not?

    Eric 

    .19  While Gnosticism is indeed complicated, it's not a catch-all for
    any non-orthodox theology either.  Gnostics claimed to have the inside
    scoop on what Jesus was all about.  And so, there's a definite link to
    early Christianity.
    
    It's been a while since studying Gnosticism, but as I recall, Gnostic
    thought had some measure of enduring influence on the Coptic church.
    The Coptic church swelled, especially in Egypt and other regions of
    north Africa.  Perhaps someone more knowledgable than me can clarify
    or expand upon this.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

         
    Re.19
    
    Eric,
    
    I was just going through my bookstacks, deciding which ones to take
    along with me, and pulled out my copy of "Jesus In The Eyes of Sufis",
    by Dr. Javad Nurbakhsh.  (Turns out I know his son...a lengthy story...
    wonderful fellow...but anyway...)
    
    Sufism is the mystical branch of Islam.  They're like 'liberal Christians'
    in a way, because they see the unity in all religions.  Islam, like
    Christianity, has the zealots who at one end believe that their way is
    the only way, and that all others are wrong.  Sufis, while they are 
    also Muslims, are at the other end of the spectrum.
    
    Interestingly enough, when I opened up the book this evening, the page
    I opened to had this to say:
    
    	The Spiritual Station of Jesus
     	------------------------------
    	The gnostics amongst the Sufis distinguish four kinds of sainthood
    	(welayat):  
    
    So, it seems that not all Sufis (Muslims) are gnostics.
    
    Probably doesn't put you any closer to a definitions, but I thought
    this was interesting and wanted to pass it along.
    
    Cindy
    

    
    Btw, if you're looking for a good book on Islam, I can recommend:
    
    	"Islam, An Introduction", by Annemarie Schimmel
    
    (May have spelt her last name incorrectly - not sure.  It's close
    though.)
    
    Cindy

I am, usually, an occasional read-only noter of this conference, but I 
noticed this topic and it happens to be one I have studied a little.
As my contribution, here is the text of a note on it that I originally
wrote for another conference a couple of years ago.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I looked through the Subject index of Books in Print, under "Gnosticism," and 
picked out the following:

	"The Gnostic Gospels" by Elaine Pagels, Random House, 1979, $14.95
		ISBN 0-394-50278-7

	"Gnostic Religion" by Hans Jonas, Beacon Press, 1958, $11.95 
		ISBN 0-8070-5799-1, BP259

	"Gnostic Religion: The Message of the Alien God and the Beginnings
		of Christianity," by Hans Jonas, Peter Smith Pub., $18.50
		ISBN 0-8446-2339-3

	"Gnosticism: A Source Book of Heretical Writings from the Early
		Christian Period," Robert M. Grant, ed., AMS Press, 1961, 
		$32.50, ISBN 0-404-16108-1

I have seen the Pagels book in bookstores in the last few months, but I have 
not read it.  I have read the others long ago, but I doubt you will easily 
find them outside a library.

For those who may not be familiar with the subject, Gnosticism is the name of 
a religious movement that flourished from around the 3rd century BC to the 3rd 
century AD.  Many early Christian heresies were Gnostic sects, and in fact it 
was not known until the last few decades that there were pre-Christian 
Gnostics.  [I gather this may still be a controversial point.]

The name comes from the Greek word "gnosis," meaning "knowledge."  The central 
feature of Gnosticism is salvation through knowledge of sacred secrets.  Most 
Gnostic sects had several levels of initiation.  They always contrasted 
knowledge and faith, to the detriment of faith, and some Gnostic sects had a 
two-level membership of initiates "in the know" and a subordinate group of the 
mere "faithful" who might hope to graduate to knowledge but otherwise could 
expect an inferior brand of salvation through faith.

It is probable that St. Paul's passionate essays on the glory of faith as a 
virtue second only to love are in part a rebuttal to the elitist Gnostic 
position.  (Romans 4-5)

Another common feature of Gnosticism was its judgement that matter was evil 
and the human body nothing more than a prison for the spirit.  They were 
radical dualists, with matter, the body, and evil on one side of the chasm and 
spirit and good on the other.  Christian Gnostics always deny the doctrine of 
the Incarnation in one way or another.  They may distinguish between Jesus the 
man, who died on the cross, period, and Christ the spirit, who ascended to 
heaven.  Or they may deny that Jesus was ever man, but rather a spirit who 
masqueraded as a man for 30 years in Palestine.

St. John's declaration "And the Word became flesh" (John 1:14) is probably
another anti-gnostic statement, proclaiming the union of the divine and the
mundane. 

Most Gnostic sects had a cosmology that started with the absolute Godhead 
alone before the dawn of time.  This God emanates a subordinate divinity, who 
emanates another, and so on through a chain of eight, called the Ogdoad.  The 
members of the Ogdoad are often called Aeons.  In many cases, either the first
emanation or the last or both is named "Sophia," that is "Wisdom," and is a
feminine personification of the divine reason. 

There are many variations on exactly what happens after the production of the 
Ogdoad, but in one common and typical version, the last Aeon, Sophia the 
Younger so to call her, produces another emanation, often called Ialdabaoth. 
He is eight degrees inferior to the absolute Godhead, and is foolish enough or
wicked enough to create the material world, along with yet another chain of 
emanations from himself.  There are usually seven in this next set, called the 
Archons, and they were identified with the gods of Classical mythology and 
with the seven planets of pre-modern astronomy.  Ialdabaoth was identified
with Saturn, and with the God of the Old Testament.  (Anti-Semitism is another
common feature of Gnostic sects.) 

The Archons try to create humanity, but fail until they steal divine energy --
in some versions in the form of Sophia herself.  The sparks of this divine 
energy are human spirits, and salvation consists of freeing these spirits from 
the prison of matter and getting them past the jealous Archons, back to the 
Ogdoad.  For Christian Gnostics, the one who breaks open the prison and/or 
teaches the passwords that will get you past the Archons is, of course, 
Christ.

Earl Wajenberg

    Sophia is associated with Hebrew Wisdom literature and not with
    gnosticism.
    
    The idea of the incarnation is not adverse to gnosticism.  Gnosticism
    recognizes a divine spark, a spirit that is within fallen flesh.  The
    goal for the gnostic is to free the divine spark from the flesh and
    reunite it with spirit.
    
    Some persons find gnostic influences within both Paul's letters and the
    gospel of John.

    Re .24:
    
    	"Sophia is associated with Hebrew Wisdom literature and not with
         gnosticism."
    
    Probably the figure of Sophia is associated with both.  I have
    certainly read gnostic texts featuring Sophia.
    
    ESW

    Sophia, as I recall, comes from the Greek and means wisdom.  We derive
    such words as philosophy (love of wisdom) and sophomore (wise fool)
    from the root.
    
    Richard