Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    I saw it yesterday, too, and will add more to this string later.
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    

	I liked "Schindler's List" a lot.  It was very obviously a high
quality film effort.

	I found it almost ironic when the credit came on the screen naming
Spielberg's production company, "Amblin Entertainment."  I wouldn't call this
movie "entertainment."  It's more like a gut-wrenching exercise in remembering.

	Spielberg's camera did not look the other way during scenes of
stomach-sinking violence.

	I liked the presentation of Schindler himself.  Hardly a model of
virtue and moral behavior, he was nevertheless a hero.  And to those who
might have perished otherwise, Schindler may have been considered a savior.

	Ultimately, this is what the movie was about.  The movie honors the
precious few who resist becoming entirely complicit in the midst of injustice,
even when the original motivation is less than humanitarian.

	I also liked the use of selective color, the reddish brown (sienna?)
of the coat of a small girl, the two flames of the lit candles during a Jewish
ceremony.  It would have weakened it to have the whole film in color, I think.

Peace,
Richard

    I haven't seen the movie yet...I'm sure that I will, though.
    
    I watched two series on PBS entitled "World at War" and the
    "Holocaust". Both series were long, and contained much footage
    of the horror.
    
    The part that struck me the most, was that the germans were able to
    have many, many jews work in the death camps and in the occuped cities
    to help with all the clerical and administrative tasks reguired to
    "run" the large death camps. I was amazed at how the use of fear was
    able to keep some many people from rising up against the germans.
    
    Jews were used to both carry in the people to be gased and then carry
    them out to the ovens! Jews were used to record the incoming
    prisioners, gather the Jews in the occupied towns........
    
    The fear and the breakdown in peoples will to survive was unbelievable!
    
    Maybe thats where the idea of my quote on "plowshares" makes sense?
    
    Marc H.

Unfortunately, "Schindler's List" doesn't provide us with the details
of what conditions promoted the rise to power of nationalistic fascism.
It deals more with the result of that rise to power.  Hitler didn't start
with nothing and institute his "Final Solution" the next day.

It was a slow and calculated program.

Peace,
Richard

    Re: .4
    
    Agreed.....very interesting subject and timely even today. 
    
    Marc H.

         This extraordinary film is harrowing, gut-wrenching, riveting, and
    heart-breaking. I spent most of the movie with tearsdripping down my face.
    I could hear people all around me, both men and women, sniffling and
    crying. When the film ended, there was a silence like I have never
    experienced at the end of any other film.
    
         To avoid spoiling it for anyone who has yet to see it, I can only
    say that you will see some of the most unforgetable scenes ever in a
    motion picture.
    
         The film certainly earns its R rating, but I do think it
    appropriate to take some younger children. I took my family, including
    my 10-year-old son and 14-year-old daughter. This is history, not
    fiction. Children younger than my children lived, but mostly died,
    through this horrible time. The violence is certainly graphic but I am
    sure can't compare to what it was really like. 
    
         ***** out of *****  a movie classic.
    
         Mike
      

    
    
     I saw the it yesterday afternoon. Most memorable scene is when that young
    boy lowers himself into the commode to hide from the Germans. The last
    time I recall crying in a movie was when I was a kid and I saw Bambi's
    mom get it by the big bad hunter. This is a must see movie.
    
    
 very moving,
    David

    I saw Schindler's List last night and it was one of the best
    movie experiences of my life. I am amazed that a 3.5 hour movie
    could seem so short, I was totally riveted, as was the mostly
    college-aged crowd and I noticed near the end our collective
    absolute stillness and silence, only broken by the sound of tears.
    
    This movie is full of memorable scenes and the black and white
    cimematography is ourstanding. When did we last see such use of
    light and shade? Oscar Wilde? The touches of color used here and
    there were startling and provided a sense of memories that do not
    fade after years. 
    
    Schindler's growing awareness of the human condition, not only
    of the Jews, but of his Nazi friends and the ways he becomes more
    caring and involved is moving and thought provoking. The scene
    as he says goodbye to the workers at his factory is one of deep
    emotion and recognition. [It is the climax of the movie, but not
    its end.] 
    
    Please do not let this movie pass by, it is a must-see on the
    large screen.
    
    Mary

Note 829.8

>    Please do not let this movie pass by, it is a must-see on the
>    large screen.
    
I want to echo Mary's remark here.  Don't wait until it hits the video
rental market.  Seeing the movie on your TV screen won't be the same.

Shalom,
Richard

    
    
    -1 -2
    
     Yes, on the big screen.
    
    
    David

    If any of you like a good book, could I recommend the book on which the
    movie is based? It is "Schindler's Ark" by Tom Keneally. I wonder why
    the title was changed when the concept of an "ark" seems much more
    appropriate.
    
    Some biographical details from Keneally's book "Jacko". I quote:
    
    "Tom Keneally was born in 1935 and was educated in Sydney. He trained
    for several years for the Catholic priesthood but did not take orders.
       In a distinguished writing life his works include 'Bring Larks and
    Heroes', which won the Miles Franklin Award (1967); 'The Survivor',
    joint winner of the 1970 Captain Cook Award; 'The Chant of Jimmy
    Blacksmith', shortlisted for the Booker Prize; 'Gossip from the Forest'
    runner-up for the 1975 Booker Prize; 'Confederates' shortlisted for the
    1979 Booker Prize; 'Schindler's Ark', winner of the 1982 Booker Prize
    and the LA Times Award for Fiction, and a forthcoming major motion
    picture 'Towards Asmara; 'Flying Hero Class'; and 'Woman of the Innerr
    Sea'. His latest book, 'Our Republic', is an account of both a personal
    and national quest for an Australian republic.
       Tom Keneally is Fouinding Chair of the Australian Republican
    Movement. He presently teaches in the graduate writing program at the
    University of California at Irvine, where he holds a Distinguished
    Professorship. Recently he was made a fellow of the prestigious
    American Academy of Arts and Sciences.'
    
    I look forward to seeing the movie.
    
    Erwin from Oz

While I commend Spielberg for "Schindler's List," I'm beginning to feel
like he took on something relatively easy from a cultural standpoint.

I mean, we all know who were the nutzoids and the demons in WWII.

But I think films such as "Shadowlands" and "Philadelphia" have taken on
a greater challenge, because the demarcations in these are not so clear.

"Schindler's List" is one of the best movies of all time.  And I'm glad
Spielberg took it on.  There's a whole generation who've grown up without
hearing about the Holocaust.  I just hope this will be a first step for
Spielberg and not an exceptional departure from the genre of "Jaws," "E.T.,"
"Hook," etc..

Peace,
Richard

    
            It's been several weeks since I've seen Schindler's List.
    It was one of the most horrific, yet moving portrayals of the total
    depravity of man this world has seen.  A friend of mine who had never
    seen anything on the holocaust left the movie during the clearing
    of the ghettos.  He couldn't stand the violence.  To be honest I
    couldn't either, but I feel we must always remember what happens when
    God is stripped out of the picture and man's self-promotion occurs
    at other's expense.
    
            I thought it interesting that when asked on some radio talk
    show if Schindler was a Christian, Spielberg simply said "Yes."  When
    the caller asked why hadn't he protrayed him as such since that might
    have given people an inkling of why this man would put his life on
    the line repeatedly, Spielberg replied "I didn't think it was crucial
    to the story."  How pathetically sad to spend all that time on this
    and not realize that without Christ's love and influence in Schindler's
    life, he might not have done any of the heroics which he is remembered
    for.
    
            What's even more disturbing about this movie is that at the
    beginning of the war in Bosnia, the media had reported on concentration
    camps there with horrible atrocities happening.  The world was
    horrified and we were told the camps would be stopped.  I have seen 
    nothing on it since.  Is this happening again all over?  Are we just 
    allowing it?  Our government and others around the globe knew what 
    was happening in Germany in 1940 and did nothing for a long time.  
    Is that same scenario just 50 years later happening again?  And if so, 
    is there anything we can do to stop it if we're not even being told 
    about it.  The world said "Never again" but did we actually mean it?
    
    Jill
     

Note 829.13

>            I thought it interesting that when asked on some radio talk
>    show if Schindler was a Christian, Spielberg simply said "Yes."  When
>    the caller asked why hadn't he portrayed him as such since that might
>    have given people an inkling of why this man would put his life on
>    the line repeatedly, Spielberg replied "I didn't think it was crucial
>    to the story."  How pathetically sad to spend all that time on this
>    and not realize that without Christ's love and influence in Schindler's
>    life, he might not have done any of the heroics which he is remembered
>    for.

Schindler, as portrayed in the movie, reminded me a bit of the parable where
the one son said he refused to do some chore and then, after a time, when ahead
and did it.

It was no secret that Schindler, again as portrayed in the movie, was
Catholic (as I recall).  Schindler was indeed a hero.  He was also quite human.
It was also apparent that Schindler had desires he didn't try to subdue: for
young, attractive women, for fine apparel and jewelry, for liquor.

>    Is that same scenario just 50 years later happening again?  And if so, 
>    is there anything we can do to stop it if we're not even being told 
>    about it.  The world said "Never again" but did we actually mean it?
    
There are certainly some parallels that might be drawn.  Too bad we've never
learned to recognize the signs before situations get to the point of
committing mass atrocities.

Shalom,
Richard

re Note 829.13 by CSC32::KINSELLA:

>             I thought it interesting that when asked on some radio talk
>     show if Schindler was a Christian, Spielberg simply said "Yes."  When
>     the caller asked why hadn't he protrayed him as such since that might
>     have given people an inkling of why this man would put his life on
>     the line repeatedly, Spielberg replied "I didn't think it was crucial
>     to the story."  How pathetically sad to spend all that time on this
>     and not realize that without Christ's love and influence in Schindler's
>     life, he might not have done any of the heroics which he is remembered
>     for.
  
        I am in the process of reading the book.  The author
        (Keneally) makes it clear that Schindler was from all outward
        appearances a nominal Christian/Catholic at best.

        While I have no doubt that the man's Christian background
        provided a fertile ground for the growth of conscience and
        caring, many people with the same level of Christian cultural
        background and commitment participated on the side of the
        German atrocities.  As much as we would like to think of it
        as a distinguishing characteristic, it may not have been.

        Bob

    
    RE: .14 & .15
    
    I think it's documented that churched people did in deed take part in
    the atrocities, or at least looked the other way.  But just going to
    church does make you a Christian.  No more than being a Catholic or a
    Baptist or a Quaker makes you a Christian.  There is a good chance 
    that Schindler while having received Christ wasn't getting to know
    Christ intimately through His Word and through prayer.  Maybe the 
    Holocaust caused him to take a deeper look inside himself.  Many 
    Christians don't choose to live and grow under God's grace.  They 
    miss out big time.  But just because they are missing out on a great
    many blessings doesn't mean God can't use them.
    
    Jill
    

re Note 829.16 by CSC32::KINSELLA:

>     There is a good chance 
>     that Schindler while having received Christ wasn't getting to know
>     Christ intimately through His Word and through prayer.  Maybe the 
>     Holocaust caused him to take a deeper look inside himself.  

        Of course -- I was just responding to YOUR quoting of and
        commenting upon Spielberg.

        From the perspective of Spielberg, who I assume is not
        Christian, the situation may be something like this: 
        Schindler was a Christian.  Many Germans were Christian in
        the way Schindler was a Christian.  Few Germans acted as
        Schindler.  The common factor of "Christian" does not appear
        to be significant.

        Bob

    Does anyone know of any good books regarding the role of the German
    Christian churches in during the holocaust.
    
    Does anyone know much about the German churches and what stand they did
    or did not take during the time and why?
    
    Patricia

Paul Johnson's 'History Of Christianity' briefly mentions the mainline German
Christian churches during the Nazi era.  It is not very complimentary.  One fact
that stuck with me is that only seven German Roman Catholics were executed during
the entire war period for refusing military service.  Not a good record.

/Mike

Note 5.78

>	"Dead Man Walking: An Eyewitness Account of the Death Penalty in
>	the United States" has been awarded a 1994 Christopher Award
>	for excellence in affirming the highest values of the human spirit.
>	(The Christophers, New York, NY, Father John Catoir, Director)

"Sclindler's List" is also the recipient of a 1994 Christopher Award, along
with "In the Name of the Father," and, "Shadowlands."

Peace,
Richard

    Including:
    
    	Best Picture
    	Best Director
    

    I finally saw the movie last night. Powerful is the only word that
    comes to mind. What a show!
    
    I came away with a couple of thoughts.
    
    1. Many Jews couldn't believe that the worst was happening. Many fellow
       Jews helped process people to the death and slave labor camps.
       The fellow Goldfarb ( Jewish policeman).
    
    2. The means to defend themselves ( small arms) had been taken away.
       The current gun bills in our congress scare me...look what happened
       to the Jews!
    
    3. Their is nothing different in the German soilders than anyone else.
       We in the USA could and have been bad to other people. The only
       thing differnt about the Germans was their "efficiency" at killing
       and burning bodies.
    
    4. God sure works in strange ways!
    
    Marc H.