Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    My first thought is that it is wrong. I feel that the part that is
    wrong has to do with the age of the woman.59? Come on.
    
    Marc H.

re Note 826.1 by JUPITR::HILDEBRANT:

>     My first thought is that it is wrong. I feel that the part that is
>     wrong has to do with the age of the woman.59? Come on.
  
        Would you have thought it wrong if a man of 59 had fathered a
        child?

        Bob

 Seems to me that women were created in such a fashion that the natural
 process of conception/childbearing and birth ceases at some point.  While
 I support some of the technological advances that have allowed infertile
 women to conceive or carry a child, once we get past that "natural" age 
 I have a problem.  


 That men may be able to father children at a late age is, to me, irrelevant.



 Jim

    RE: .2
    
    No....I would not. My thoughts on child bearing revolve around the
    concept that mother nature has designed the woman so that 
    children are born over a limited subset of the years of life.
    
    When you try and force the body to do something it wasn;t designed for,
    you are asking for trouble.
    
    You could substitue the word God for Mother nature I quess, or you
    could argue about the worth of this through strictly evolutionary/
    biology merits.
    
    Marc H.

    .0  Is this the case where the 59 year old woman was the mother
    of a (married) daughter who could not bear children herself for
    some reason?
    
    The health of the surrogate mother (the 59 year old) was taken into
    full consideration, as I recall.
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    

    I just reread .0 and apparently .5 concerns another case.
    
    To answer your question, I think IVF is a blessing in some instances.
    I would tend to question the wisdom of it in others.
    
    Richard
    

re Note 826.5 by CSC32::J_CHRISTIE:

>     .0  Is this the case where the 59 year old woman was the mother
>     of a (married) daughter who could not bear children herself for
>     some reason?
  
        No this was a different case, an instance where the older
        mother was bearing the child for herself and her husband.

        (Although it was similar to surrogacy in that the egg was
        donated by another woman.)

        Yes, the doctors are being very careful with regard to
        physical health issues.

        Bob

 I think this was a case of a woman in Italy who decided by golly, that she
 wanted a child before she died.




 Jim


Apparantly a physician in Europe is making big $ by helping other women in
 this fashion.



Jime

    re .5

    The 59 year old woman wanted the child(ren) for her own. There was
    another mother/daughter thing a while ago, but the mother (grandmother?)
    was still ovulating on her own.

    Age aside, or assuming that the woman is of "child bearing age", is
    there a moral problem with the process of in vitro fertilization? What
    if the egg came from a woman other than the wife, or the sperm from a
    man other than the husband? 

	    Eric

    PS Not to insult anyone's intelligence, but in vitro fertilization
    involves fertilizing several eggs in a lab and then implanting some of
    them into the woman. 

 Was this also the case where they were trying to harvest eggs from aborted
 babies?




 Jim

re Note 826.3 by CSLALL::HENDERSON:

>  Seems to me that women were created in such a fashion that the natural
>  process of conception/childbearing and birth ceases at some point.  While
>  I support some of the technological advances that have allowed infertile
>  women to conceive or carry a child, once we get past that "natural" age 
>  I have a problem.  
  
        According to Genesis 17, God saw fit that a 90-year-old
        woman, Sarah, bore a child.

        Now it could be that God, being God, can do anything God
        wants, regardless of whether it's right or not.  But in the
        absence of clear teaching against it, wouldn't you say that
        this passage in the Bible, if anything, SUPPORTS intervention
        to enable childbearing by an elderly mother, at least in
        special circumstances?

        Bob

re Note 826.10 by CSLALL::HENDERSON:

>  Was this also the case where they were trying to harvest eggs from aborted
>  babies?
  
        I think that, to this point, it was just speculation that
        eggs could be obtained from aborted females, since it was
        projected that there would be a shortage of donor women if
        the techniques become more popular.

        Bob

    
    Re.3
    
    "Natural age."  
    
    I have a friend who, at age 40, is going through menopause.  There are
    girls now who are starting their monthly cycles before age 10.  What
    'natural age' are you referring to?
    
    I'm very glad that this option is now available for those who wish to 
    choose it.            
    
    Cindy

    I understand IVF is very expensive.
    
    I feel for the people who cannot even consider it because of the
    $$$$.
    
    Richard
    

RE:<<< Note 826.11 by LGP30::FLEISCHER "without vision the people perish (DTN 223-8576, MSO2-2/A2, IM&T)" >>>
                             -< sounded familiar >-

>        absence of clear teaching against it, wouldn't you say that
>        this passage in the Bible, if anything, SUPPORTS intervention
>        to enable childbearing by an elderly mother, at least in
>        special circumstances?

 

 Supports intervention by God..

RE:             <<< Note 826.13 by TNPUBS::PAINTER "Planet Crayon" >>>
                               -< natural age? >-

    
       
   > "Natural age."  
    
    >I have a friend who, at age 40, is going through menopause.  There are
    >girls now who are starting their monthly cycles before age 10.  What
    >'natural age' are you referring to?
    
    
    Is there not a time in the body of the human female when the ability to
 reproduce through the natural (intercourse) is no longer there?  There is an
 age where it begins, and an age where it ends.




Jim

    Re.16
    
    Jim,
    
    For each woman, it is different.  As I gave you real life examples in
    .13, you can see that for some, menopause can begin extremely early,
    while for others, it can be very late.   
    
    Statistically there may be an age that can be derived somehow, however
    there are so many factors involved (nutrition, state of physical body,
    environment, etc.) that when a woman gets older, it's difficult to
    compare one person's situation to another.  Calendar age no longer is a
    measurement by which you can hold a person to, I feel.  
    
    For example, I have two great aunts in their 70's who can barely walk 
    through a grocery store, so obviously they would not be good candidates
    for such things.
    
    I've known women who are in great shape, and truly amazing people,
    right up in their 90's, and who, if they really wanted to, would make 
    great mothers.
    
    Cindy

RE:             <<< Note 826.17 by TNPUBS::PAINTER "Planet Crayon" >>>
                             -< I don't think so. >-

       
   > For each woman, it is different.  As I gave you real life examples in
   > .13, you can see that for some, menopause can begin extremely early,
   > while for others, it can be very late.   
    

     Agreed, but you seemed to question my use of the word "naturual" and I'm
     saying that there is a defined period of time, at whatever age it begins
     and at whatever age it ends, during which a woman is capable of conceiving
     a child..And if as I understand it, the woman in the basenote is post-meno
     pausal, then she is past the period of natural childbirth (which I tend to 
     believe God established for a reason) and I question the wisdom of such
     action.





   >    compare one person's situation to another.  Calendar age no longer is a
   > measurement by which you can hold a person to, I feel.  
    
     What is the life expectancy of the mother in this case, having given birth
     at age 59?  How long will this child have the benefit of the presense of 
     its mother?



       
   > I've known women who are in great shape, and truly amazing people,
   > right up in their 90's, and who, if they really wanted to, would make 
   > great mothers.
    
    
    With no intent on casting aspersion on the women about which you speak, this
    is a frightening thought.



   Jim

re Note 826.15 by CSLALL::HENDERSON:

>  Supports intervention by God..
  
        Do you limit this intervention to the miraculous, or do you
        allow God to use human instrumentality?

        Bob

    
    Why is that a frightening thought to you, Jim? 
    
    As for the life expectancy of women, I read a statistic the other day
    that if a woman makes it to 50 years of age, the *average* life
    expectancy is currently 81.  (Source: "The Silent Passage", by Gail
    Sheehy. I'll probably enter some more quotes from that book, as it is 
    about menopause.  Time does not permit now.)
    
    Having been the eldest born of a mother who was only 19 at the time, I
    think the next life I would prefer parents who are *much* older and wiser.
    
    Cindy
                                                   

RE:<<< Note 826.19 by LGP30::FLEISCHER "without vision the people perish (DTN 223-8576, MSO2-2/A2, IM&T)" >>>
                       -< God works through many hands >-


>>  Supports intervention by God..
  
 >       Do you limit this intervention to the miraculous, or do you
 >       allow God to use human instrumentality?

  
       I believe God uses human instrumentality, however in IMO, this activiy
       subverts God's plan for the human race.  Had he intended for humans to
       bear children into the latter years of life it would have been so.  

       This particular case (and others this doctor has been involved in or
       proposed) strikes me as a venture into experimentation with human life
       and an opportunity to make money on it.



 Jim

RE:             <<< Note 826.20 by TNPUBS::PAINTER "Planet Crayon" >>>
                             -< a matter of age? >-

    
   > Why is that a frightening thought to you, Jim? 
    
      I don't care for the experimentation with human life, nor do I feel it
      is fair to the child.  In this case I wonder if this woman is more 
      interested in "having a baby" than being a mother to the child. 


    >    Having been the eldest born of a mother who was only 19 at the time, I
    >think the next life I would prefer parents who are *much* older and wiser.
    
   

    Well, I can see your point..however, there is still quite a bit of time 
    between 19 and the "natural" shut down of the reproductive process in 
    which to have children.



   Jim

    	Hi!
    
    	While I can see no maoral objection to a woman of advanced years
    	giving birth - whether through natural or attificial methods, there
    	is a problem that has not been considered in this string so far.
    
    	I was 40+ and my wife 39 when we adopted our son, David, as a baby
    	(he was 7-days old when we took him home). For the first few years,
    	we did everything together and had great fun. However, when David
    	started to play football (soccer) papa - now in his 50's - was not
    	able to keep up. David had to be content with a father as spectator
    	where all his peers had fethers on the playing field.
    
    	This is an example, standing in for many, of the effect of the
    	additional generation gap (I have 4 grandchildren from my first
        marriage, one of whom is older than David). The situation will
    	not improve: David is now 15 and I am approaching retirement.
    	Just at the time of David's next crossroad - about 18 - I will
    	be at mine: entry into pension.  My wife can, and does, give
    	examples of many instances from her viewpoint.
    
    	We will be around 70 by the time David has children and close to
    	80 in the years where they expect most from their grand-parents.
    	
    	So, although we do all we can, we have not been, or ever can be,
    	*complete* parents.
    
    	Remember that our starting age was 40-ish. In the case we are looking
    	at in this note, the mother is 59 and, probably, the father even
    	older.
    
    	My advice would be: Consider these things and make a very careful,
    	unselfish decision.
    
    	Greetings, Derek. 

re Note 826.23 by VNABRW::BUTTON:

>     	So, although we do all we can, we have not been, or ever can be,
>     	*complete* parents.
  
        Few of us can be *complete* parents, regardless of age.

        There will always be some areas in which, when you look back,
        you'll regret not doing something or the way you did it.
          
>     	My advice would be: Consider these things and make a very careful,
>     	unselfish decision.
  
        Of course!  And that applies to the young adult and
        especially the teen-ager, as well as the older folk.

        Bob

    So far it seems that, barring the age of the mother, people don't have
    a moral problem with in vitro fertilization. Given that there is only a 
    1 in 7 success rate (heard this on NPR the other night), and that not
    all the fertilized eggs are implanted back into the birth mother, and
    that generally either the egg or the sperm is donated, I honestly
    thought there would be more concern among the parochial noters. This
    topic seems to touch on aspects of abortion, sexual morality, and
    pride, at the very least.

    Eric

Why should the "parochial" noters, as you call us, even bother to
reply in here any more.

/john

    re .26

    > Why should the "parochial" noters, as you call us, even bother to
    > reply in here any more.

    Because parochial noters, such as yourself and others, add information,
    perspective, and value to this conference. You (personally) provide
    insight into traditional teachings and doctrine that I (personally)
    would not get elsewhere.

    Granted this conference is anything but parochial, but the fact that I
    am exposed to viewpoints from the modern fundamentalists to new ager is
    personally fulfilling. Perhaps you find it something other than
    fulfilling, or at the very least interesting. 

    Eric

    RE: .26
    
    You have never held back before...why now?
    
    Marc H.

    
    Re.22
    
    Jim,
    
    It is also possible for girls to have babies with the onset of their
    cycle, sometimes as early as 10 years of age, and even before that.
    
    By the same logic then, do you approve of girls having children at
    this age, and that God, by giving them this ability at such an early
    age, is approving?
    
    Cindy

 Of course not

    
    Re.30
    
    Well, that's encouraging.  (;^)
    
    Back to the ending of the cycles in women...there are *many* factors
    that can affect these things, including stress, environment, nutrition,
    exercise (or lack thereof), and so on.  In fact, the menses of many 
    women who were in concentration camps in WWII stopped altogether
    because their bodies were so decimated by these things listed above.
    So I don't really believe a God-ordained 'natural age' necessarily
    exists.
    
    Another thing that is happening is that the life expectancy of humans
    is increasing.  However, this also means that there was a time when
    people didn't live nearly as long.  Over Christmas, I was doing my
    family tree, beginning with my mother's grandfather and grandmother and
    working down from there.  That couple had 11 children, and half the
    females born to them actually died in their mid-30's, leaving children
    without a mother.  My mother's mother, for example, died when she was
    only 1.5 years old.  And there was a time when women typically only
    lived into their 40's or so, thus leaving less time between the 
    birth of their children and their own death, than exists between a 
    woman at 59 years having a child and dying at the average age of 81.
    
    While it's true that the majority of people tend to 'slow down' in
    their later years, this *does not have to happen*.  Jack LaLaine, for
    example, at 70, celebrated it by swimming across a body of water
    pulling (I believe) 70 rowboats behind him.  *I* probably couldn't do
    that.  And the yogi that founded the yoga center that I go to, at age
    60 last year, actually stood on his head in an upside-down lotus pose,
    something I also cannot do.
    
    What if there are women in this category who, for whatever reasons were
    not able to have children earlier, but suddenly with this new technique, 
    it now becomes possible for them?  Should they be denied the experience?    
    
    If God had intended people in general not to bear children after a
    certain age, then why is there not an equivalent to menopause that
    takes place in men?
    
    It would be good to hear from some more women in this topic, since  
    historically men have typically been the ones to have the more vocal 
    say over what a woman does with her body.
    
    Cindy

    	re -1 Cindy.
    
    	Hi!
    
    	>What if there were women... Should they be denied the experience?
    
    	No, no, no! If they have really weighed up all the pros and cons
    	(while doing a joga head-stand  ;-) ), then good luck to them.
    	Childbearing is one of the great plusses of being a woman and I
    	would give anything to be able to experience it at first hand.
    	(This said without a trace of envy: but a great sigh of "if only".
    
    	Greetings, Derek.

    
    Everybody...I'd like to ask a favor.
    
    For my Philosophy 101 (Informal Logic) class, I need to choose a topic 
    and defend it.
    
    This string has great potential, so given that, would those of you 
    who have dropped out, please jump back in and contribute some more?
    Any new participants are welcome too.  I'm looking for as many points
    of view as possible.
    
    My position is that this procedure should not be banned outright 
    based solely on the age of a woman (exact wording still to be refined.)
    
    Thanks in advance.
    
    Cindy
                        

    
    Since some of you note in places like SOAPBOX....
    
    Does anyone know if this topic (not the basenote topic, but the
    branched off one of women past the age of menopause) has been discussed
    in the 'BOX or in any other conferences (CHRISTIAN, etc.)?  If you know
    the topic names and can supply pointers, that would be most
    appreciated.
    
    I'm looking for material for my Philosophy course paper.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Cindy

    I can't seem to find anything on it in SOAPBOX. Which doesn't mean
    it's not there. :-) I did find a topic (180) in IKE22::WOMANNOTES-5
    which is a logical place to look.
    
    			Alfred

    
    Thanks, Alfred.  I'll give it a look.
    
    Cindy