Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

re Note 819.0 by JUPITR::HILDEBRANT:

>     A quote I read said:
>     
>     "Those who Beat their Weapons to Plowshares will Plow for Those who
>     Don't".

        Quite likely -- and for some, the moral choice between
        "slave" and "slave driver" is an easy one.

        Bob

    RE: .1
    
    But...but.....what about having your family as slaves? Would you
    just let it happen?
    
    Thats the moral problem I have.
    
    Marc H.

    I'm sorry, but I don't understand the quote... Beat Weapons Plowshares,
    this must be in a way of life to which I am completely unfamiliar...
    care to enlighten me?
    
    Nancy
    
    P.S.
    If you have directed a note towards me in the last 3 days, please send
    me a direction mail.. as I've reset set seen for time constraints...
    but don't want anyone to think I'm ignoring them.  Thanks
    
    

    "Swords into plowshares" is pointing to quotes found in Isaiah and at
    least one other book in the Bible.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    This not one I'm familiar with... thanks Richard.  Does anybody know
    the exact reference?
    
    Nancy

The most famous "plowshare" quote is Isaiah 2:3c-4/Micah 4:2c-3:

	The law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord
	from Jerusalem.  And he shall judge among many people, and
	rebuke strong nations afar off;

	and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their
	spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up a sword
	against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Of course, there's also Joel 3:9-10:

	Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; prepare war, wake up
	the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them
	come up:  Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruning
	hooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.

    Well, can anyone tell me what a plowshare is?  The interpretation of
    the scripture is rather bland without it.
    
    I can also look it up in my concordance at home.
    
    Nancy

	It shall come to pass in the latter days
	  that the mountain of the house of the LORD
	shall be established as the highest of the mountains,
	  and shall be raised above the hills;
	and all the nations shall flow to it,
	  and many peoples shall come, and say:
	"Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
	  to the house of the God of Jacob;
	that he may teach us his ways
	  and that we may walk in his paths."
	For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
	  and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
	He shall judge between the nations,
	  and shall decide for many peoples;
	and they shall beat their swords into plowshares,
	  and their spears into pruning hooks;
	nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
	  neither shall they learn war any more.
					Isaiah 2:2-4 (RSV)

	"For behold, in those days and at that time, when I restore the
	fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all the nations and
	bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat, and I will enter
	into judgment with them there, on account of my people and my
	heritage Israel, because they have scattered them among the
	nations, and have divided up my land, and have cast lots for my
	people, and have given a boy for a harlot, and have sold a girl
	for wine, and have drunk it."

	Proclaim this among the nations:
	Prepare war,
	  stir up the mighty men.
	Let all the men of war draw near,
	  let them come up.
	Beat your plowshares into swords,
	  and your pruning hooks into spears;
	  let the weak say, "I am a warrior."
					Joel 3:1,9-10 (RSV)

    .7  A plowshare is a agricultural tool, a bladed instrument used in
    preparing the earth for planting.
    
    The Scriptures quoted are (not surprisingly) among my favorites.
    
    Richard
    

    Thanks for the scripture info folks. Now that we all understand,
    what are your own opinions of my quote in .0?
    
    Marc H.

	One should also note Micah 4:1-3 RSV "It shall come to pass in the latter
	days that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established as the
	highest of the mountains, and shall be raised up above the hills; and
	peoples shall flow to it, and many nations shall come and say: ' Come, let
	us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob;
	that he may teach us his ways and we may walk in his paths.' For out of
	Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. He
	shall judge between many peoples, and shall decide for strong nations afar
	off; and they shall have to beat their swords into ploughshares and their
	spears into pruning hooks; neither shall they learn war any more."

	The Isaiah & Micah scriptures show that people will come out of all nations,
	that includes Iraq and the USA, and will be taught to live peaceably by
	God in that they will no longer learn war any more from the nations. They
	would be taught and commanded to share love amongst themselves, this love
	would transcend national and ethnic boundaries and infact Jesus said this
	love would be an identifying mark of his followers, John 13:34,35. In turn
	those being taught to live peaceably would invite others to learn God's
	ways. Does any single group in all nations resemble this description?.

	As a group those who learn peace would seem like a vunerable group. But 
	they put their trust in their God as they patiently wait for him. The Joel 
	Scripture mentions that their God invites the mighty men of the nations,
	with their ever increasing destructive weapons, to war. As Joel scripture
	points out God "will enter into judgment with them there.", this points
	to Armageddon when God invites all the nations that are opposed to his rule,
	to his war Revelation 16:14,16. God will once and for all rid this planet 
	of war mongers and weapons of war, as he promised in Psalm 46:9 NWT "He is
	making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth. The bow he breaks apart 
	and does cut the spear in pieces; the wagons he burns in the fire." The wars
	will have ceased because their will be no one left who is interested in fighting
	them, for all will have learnt how to live peaceably.

	As 2 Peter 3:14 brings out, may one be found in peace when God's day of
	judegment arrives.

	Phil.

    RE: .11
    
    Can't read....goes off screen.
    
    Marc H.

    <<< Note 819.11 by RDGENG::YERKESS "bring me sunshine in your smile" >>>
                          -< Learn to love not kill >-


One should also note Micah 4:1-3 RSV "It shall come to pass in the latter
days that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established as the
highest of the mountains, and shall be raised up above the hills; and
peoples shall flow to it, and many nations shall come and say: ' Come, let
us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob;
that he may teach us his ways and we may walk in his paths.' For out of
Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. He
shall judge between many peoples, and shall decide for strong nations afar
off; and they shall have to beat their swords into ploughshares and their
spears into pruning hooks; neither shall they learn war any more."

The Isaiah & Micah scriptures show that people will come out of all nations,
that includes Iraq and the USA, and will be taught to live peaceably by
God in that they will no longer learn war any more from the nations. They
would be taught and commanded to share love amongst themselves, this love
would transcend national and ethnic boundaries and infact Jesus said this
love would be an identifying mark of his followers, John 13:34,35. In turn
those being taught to live peaceably would invite others to learn God's
ways. Does any single group in all nations resemble this description?.

As a group those who learn peace would seem like a vunerable group. But 
they put their trust in their God as they patiently wait for him. The Joel 
Scripture mentions that their God invites the mighty men of the nations,
with their ever increasing destructive weapons, to war. As Joel scripture
points out God "will enter into judgment with them there.", this points
to Armageddon when God invites all the nations that are opposed to his rule,
to his war Revelation 16:14,16. God will once and for all rid this planet 
of war mongers and weapons of war, as he promised in Psalm 46:9 NWT "He is
making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth. The bow he breaks apart 
and does cut the spear in pieces; the wagons he burns in the fire." The wars
will have ceased because their will be no one left who is interested in fighting
them, for all will have learnt how to live peaceably.

As 2 Peter 3:14 brings out, may one be found in peace when God's day of
judegment arrives.

Phil.

    re: .11
    
    Phil, you bring up some key points. War is not the solution to the
    evils of the world, it only brings more destruction and death.
    Therefore, it is a temptation of Satan which tries our patience and
    attempts to get us to take matters into our own hands to resolve
    situations with violence.
    
    We are in a sorry spiritual state when we can not manage, or even 
    think of, any solutions other than to use violence on the other. This
    includes the way we treat others, even loved ones. 
    
    The ways of peace can only be found through the supernatural grace of
    God and only by following Truth and Justice. Jesus is the Way and
    Perfect Peace because he acted in perfect Truth and Justice; if we
    follow Him in our deeds then there will be peace. The Holy Spirit
    must be invoked and sought because it is through the Holy Spirit that
    we receive the gifts of Counsel and Perseverance.
    
    Those who turn away from God are easily mislead by Satan's voice which
    encourages violent, destructive and devisive 'solutions' - solutions of
    death - to the problems of life. 
    
    At one time our violent society relied on clubs to ensure peace, and
    that escalated up the chain of destructive weaponry until now we are
    'ensuring peace' with weapons that, if used, will destroy millions and
    perhaps our planet. This is the false peace which relies on power and
    strategic advantages. It has only managed to keep a relative peace 
    because those with these weapons have had some restraint. How secure is
    our peace in the hands of someone evil or even just fanatical and 
    uncomprehending of the consequences?
    
    God will indeed bring one country to battle back the evil of another;
    this is seen in the Old Testament a number of times. The "good" country
    is actually being chastised also, for their lack of Justice. 
    
    Scripture says that there will be wars and rumors of wars. None of this
    will be stopped until Christ comes again. As I am coming to see it, we
    should not enter into the call for war, but should allow ourselves to
    be enslaved if necessary rather than to kill other humans, however
    rabid they may be. Only in this way will we walk in Christ's footsteps
    in the way of a non-violence which witnesses to love even the enemy and
    even to total persecution and death.
    
    The Lord says about Himself, "Vengence is Mine." I think as Christians
    we should use our efforts not towards war, but very much in prayer and
    acts of love and penance so that the Lord Himself will intercede and
    exact Justice on our behalf. 
    
    I think the terrible war in Bosnia is a good example of the evil of
    war that soon brings all sides to commit ferocious atrocities against
    one another. It is not the soldiers that are suffering through this
    war, it is the hundreds of thousands and perhaps millions of ordinary
    people who probably never wanted war and would have chosen to live in
    peace. Now even those people's hearts are suffering and tempted to
    look for revenge and destruction on their former neighbors. No
    military victory or peace settlement will bring peace back to the
    hearts of these people. 
    
    More in a further note.
    
    Peace of Jesus,
    
    Mary 

    re: .0 and others
    
    It is probably a historical reality that those who either insist on
    non-violence or those who are the weaker in the battle of war end up
    the 'slaves' of the victor. One might be willing to make this choice
    for oneself, but it is difficult to make this choice for loved ones.
    
    I think that we must make the decision, "As for me and my household,
    we will follow the Lord." That is, we must come to recognize the
    fullness of our Christian committment and then be resolved to live it
    to whatever extent required. Jesus is our Perfect Witness in this,
    going to the Cross rather than to call down legions of angels or to
    allow his disciple to raise a sword against his enemies. 
    
    We also have examples in both the Old and New Testaments. The entire
    Macabee family of seven (?) sons were killed one by one rather than
    deny their faith. 
    
    In the New Testament, the early Christians, for 300 years, were 
    persecuted and killed and worshiped in hiding. They did not take up
    the sword or mount any counter-attacks that I am aware of against
    their persecutors. The hid as much as possible and when caught went
    to the Lions. They were excluded from many 'career opportunities' in
    their society also rather than compromise.
    
    Obviously, the choice of the parents to live as Christians put their
    children in jeopardy also. I can only surmise that the parents, through
    sound and substantial Christian teachings and their solid witness and
    those of the rest of the community, are what also strengthened the
    children to endure these things.
    
    Both parents must have full Christian committment and instruct their
    children of the eternal consequences that their souls face when making
    choices in live, including choices to go to war or to remain non-
    violent. In this regard, we see why it is important to be part of a
    strong Christian community who will also witness to such values.
    
    Without recognizing that the gospel also calls us to persevere in Christ's
    full Way, including the Cross, we are not likely to persevere in Christ's 
    Way of Love, including that of our enemies.
    
    Peace of Jesus,
    
    Mary
     

re:  Note 819.14 by Mary

>                             -< war is not peace! >-

And neither is Peace the absence of War.

Peace,

Jim

re: .16 by Jim
    
    
> And neither is Peace the absence of War.

    Very true. The cry for Justice can be suppressed so much that we can
    consider we are at 'peace' with our family members, neighbors, 
    employees, government and nations. 
    
    The question becomes, what is the way out of such situations that is
    not violent and destructive?  When our 'theology' feels that it is
    rational to use weaponry against neighbor, even for the best of
    reasons, then why should we be so alarmed when an abused wife cuts
    of her husband's penis or two rich boys kill their abusive parents.
    
    Or society has said that there is a legitimate place for violence in
    our world. It is justified in situations ranging from defense of
    territory, people and freedoms to the ingredient that makes movies and
    video games exciting. We want it around, but at a distance where it can
    remain unreal.
    
    The lack of peace, either through war, tensions, or suppression, comes
    from attitudes within the human heart. Greed, coveteousness, the desire
    for control, power, money, attention, pride, coldness of heart, a
    willingness to blame and judge others, prejudice all work against peace
    and create injustices. 
    
    The true way to peace is not so much to fight injustices, which are 
    really only symptoms, but to address the attitudes of the heart. All
    the evils of the world can be related to those attitudes that are 
    known by Christians as vices: lust, greed, gluttony, pride, .... [I'm
    missing some, I know!]. Our Peace is through Jesus - by following Him
    in the Christian virtues of love, purity, obedience, humility, etc..
    
    In this day and age when we as a society have accepted that it is 
    'proper' to demand our 'rights', we set ourselves up to become blinded
    by pride as we seek our own way and satisfactions while ignoring the
    situations of our fellow humans. Through our arrogance we feel that
    we have a right to what we have and we instantly judge others who have
    less as being sub-standard. We do not recognize that everything that
    we have, our abilities, our parents and their ability to provide for
    us, the breaks we've had in life, and even the setbacks which have 
    brought out our strengths through adversity are all gifts from God.
    We do not recognize how many times God has picked us up when we've
    been fearful, tired, or have failed and comforted us. We do not 
    recognize that the inspiration that got us through that difficult
    meeting at work or over that hurtle on that project was prompted by
    God in His care and Mercy for us.
    
    Therefore, in our arrogance, we give in to the 'ideology' that if
    our brother has not succeeded then it is due to their lack of moral
    fiber and therefore they 1) deserve their fate, and 2) cannot be helped
    because they would just squander anything given to them. [Sound
    familiar in this day and age?]
    
    True peace comes from loving, forgiving, and helping each other as
    Jesus loves, forgives, and helps us. It does not excuse sin, but rather
    encourages the sinner to find the better and happier way through life
    in Christian virtue. 
    
    True peace comes from recognizing the injustices we have created by
    past sins, by repenting, and then reaching out to restore those we
    have harmed. 
    
    Well, this has been longer than planned....in a reflective mood, I
    guess!
    
    Peace,
    
    Mary
    
    
Peace,

Mary

    .0  Marc,
    
    I've read that quote over and over.  And I'm not sure what it's trying
    to say.  The sword is a symbol of destruction and death.  The plowshare
    is a symbol of productiveness and life.
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    

    Re: .18
    
    Richard......what the quote means to me, is that if you eliminate the
    means to defend yourself, someone *will* inslave you. Meaning that the 
    nature of humans is tha there will always be an evil, dark side to 
    someone in the world...someon ewho is waiting to inslave the peaceful
    people.
    
    Examples are many....Hitler, Hirohito (Sp?), Gengis Khan, etc., lord
    of the flies......
    
    Its a real problem for me....I can't help but the old slogan of
    
    "peace through strength" is correct.
    
    Marc H.

    .20  The democracy of Costa Rica flies in the face of this kind
    of thinking.  Costa Rica has no military beyond an emergency response
    team similar to our National Guard.  It is the richest country in the
    region and surrounded by poorer countries which might threaten it
    militarily.  Yet, it has not happened.
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    

    Re: 20
    
    Is Costa Rica's stability due to the USA's presence and various
    treaties? If so, then your argument is wrong.
    
    Marc H.

    .21  Not to my knowledge.
    
    Costa Rica, incidentally, has permanently banned the sacrificial hero
    of American nationalism, Col. Oliver North, for his deceitful and
    unethical dealings in waging low-intensity warfare in Central America.
    
    Richard
    

    RE: .22
    
    O.K......I'm just quessing then. Don't have an answer.
    Let me try another idea then. 
    
    Could the horror of the Third Reich been stopped by peaceful ,
    non-violent means?
    
    Marc H.

    .23
    
    We'll never know.  I suspect the rise of the Reich might have been
    prevented by non-violent means, but it wasn't.
    
    Richard
    

    	If the Treaty of Versailles had been a little less oriented to
    	revenge and a little more towards love, it is probable that the
    	politicl climate in Deutschland - despite the world-wide slump -
    	would not have been congenial to the rise of Hitler.
    
    	Even given this, one might argue that the treaty was the direct
    	consequence of a preceding war and, therefore was, in any case 
        the result of violence.   jjjuch!!
    
    	Greetings, Derek.
    

re Note 819.25 by VNABRW::BUTTON:

        There is a famous quotation (whose source I am ashamed to say
        I don't know) that those who forget the lessons of history
        are condemned to repeat them.

        While this is usually said to mean that if you only knew the
        history, you would do differently, I think it is just as true
        that people, as individuals and nations, deliberately repeat
        certain parts of their history.  Very often wars and lesser
        conflicts are fueled by ancient animosities and a desire to
        right wrongs committed long ago.  In those instances, if only
        people could forget, they could have peace.  But they can't
        forget.

        Bob

	RE.23

 Marc,

;    Could the horror of the Third Reich been stopped by peaceful ,
;    non-violent means?

 It could have been stopped at source if the clergy had taught
 their flock to adhere to Jesus' command in John 13:34,35 NWT
 "I am giving you a new commandment, that YOU love one another;
 just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. By 
 this all will know you are my disciples, if you have love 
 among yourselves." Jesus laid down his life on behalf of his
 brothers, his disciples were to follow the same principle.
 Rather than promoting the killing of fellow brothers in other
 lands, through war prayers, the clergy should have told their
 flock that this was wrong. Would Hitler have had enough support
 if Protestant/Catholic had refused to fight Protestant/Catholic?. 

 The same goes for the Allies, there is no "just war" when it comes 
 to taking the life of ones spiritual brother. David understood this,
 with the provocation he received from king Saul many would say that
 David had the right to kill Saul. But, what was his example?. Well
 he trusted and waited on Jehovah God. He had the opportunity to
 kill Saul as mentioned in 1 Samuel 26:8-13 but spared him a second 
 time saying "It is unthinkable on my part, to thrust my hand out 
 against the anointed of Jehovah!" (verse 11a NWT).
	
 Btw there was a small group, in Germany, who were taught and 
 observed Jesus' command to love one another. As Germans they were 
 sent to concentration camps because they would not recant their 
 faith and where identified by a purple triangle sewn on their camp 
 clothes. Many of them laid down their own lives for their spiritual 
 brothers in other lands. 

 Phil.	

    Re: .27
    
    Maybe Phil.......maybe, but, looking at the history of the rise and
    fall of the third reich, you have to feel that if the rest of the world
    just let Hitler and the Germans continue their war....we would be
    speaking in german today.
    
    Marc H.

    Mark,

    While at a gut level I understand what your saying and agree with you,
    at a higher, spiritual level I don't recall Jesus... or even Paul...
    calling for a violent reaction to conquering army's. Certainly there
    were plenty of opportunities for them to do so. Quite the contrary, they
    preached meekness and submission to rulers.
    
    Eric

re .28


	Marc,

	Would you allow nationalistic fervour to rob you of brotherly
	love or affection that you could enjoy?. Remember God says 
	"Vengeance is mine, I will repay" Romans 12:19.

	Your reply reminded me of Zephaniah 2:8-9 NWT, for the things 
	of this world are but temporary (1 John 2:17). The oppression 
	of people will atlast pass away,but in the meantime one should
	wait on Jehovah. The Zephaniah scripture reads "Therefore keep 
	yourselves in expectation of me, is the utterance of Jehovah, 
	'till the day of my rising up to [the] booty, for my judicial 
	decision is to gather nations, for me to collect together 
	kingdoms, in order to pour out my denunciation, for all my 
	burning anger; for by fire of my zeal all the earth will be 
	devoured. For then I shall give to peoples the change to a 
	pure language, in order for all them to call upon the name 
	of Jehovah, in order to serve him shoulder to shoulder."
	2 peter 3:14 indicates that those who are keeping in 
	expectation of Almighty God will be found in peace, spotless 
	without blemish.

	Speaking of being forced to speak another langauge, would you
	not like to speak this "pure language"?. A language that would
	help one serve "him shoulder to shoulder" with brothers of other
	nations or tribes. It is a language that all persons in every
	nation will be invited to learn and speaks of learning peace 
	and not war (Compare Isaiah 2:2-4 and Matthew 24:14). It is
	a language that speaks of self-sacrificing love, that Jesus
	showed, that transcends national/ethnic boundaries.

	Phil.
	

    Re: .30
    
    I would strongly resist a "nationalistic fervour"..but, I would support
    self defense. In the case of WW2, I believe that the USA's response was
    self defense. In addition, the allies presence and fighting was what
    finally stopped the gas ovens.
    
    Marc H.

re .30

	Marc,

	I understand what your saying, as regards self defense especially
	if my family was involved.

	But you see, that as a Jehovah's Witness one can trust that
	another spiritual brother will not bear arms against oneself.
	They would rather loose their own lives, than be pitted against
	against their peace loving brother. They follow Jesus' lead
	in not allowing this world to squeeze them into it's mold, in
	otherwords not to become like their oppressors.

	Phil.	

re Note 819.31 by JUPITR::HILDEBRANT:

>     In addition, the allies presence and fighting was what
>     finally stopped the gas ovens.
  
        Considering that there are only 4000 Jews in Poland today.
        perhaps there were additional reasons why the gas ovens
        stopped.

        Bob

    Re: .31
    Lets not forget the catholics, gypsys, retarded,homosexuals,etc.
    They too went into the stove. I'm afraid the germans hadn't run out of
    people, yet.
    
    Marc  H.

    Mark,
    
    While I don't necessarily disagree with you, I keep hearing "the ends
    does not justify the means" run through my head.
    
    Eric

    Re : .35
    
    It is a problem...thats why I thought it would make a good topic.
    
    Marc H.