Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

   I think the result would be what is being discussed in 781 today...somehow
   I think many people have come to the conclusion that life is indeed pointless
   which I feel results in little respect for other human life.  If we are to
   believe that there is no God or we evolved from some primordal swamp, what
   the heck is the point of life? 

   

 Jim

    RE: .0 It would end it.
    
    		Alfred

I've spent a little time thinking about this question and have concluded
for myself that if life turned out to be pointless, it would affect my
own life very little.

Even if pointless, life is still good and precious.  I'd would still enjoy
laughter and the laughter of others.  Making love with a beautiful woman would
be no less pleasurable.  Work would still have its rewards, satisfactions and
frustrations.  Riding a rollercoaster would be no less thrilling.  The sun
baking the chill off my bones would be no less welcome.

If life was pointless, that doesn't mean life would be cheap or dispensable.
Perhaps it would actually increase the value of life, since this, pointless
or not, is all we know.

Peace,
Richard

    
    
    Define pointless..
    
    
    David

    .4
    
    >Define pointless..
    
    No.
    
    It would be pointless.
    
    Seriously, I would rather hear what people have to say based on
    whatever they consider the meaning to be.
    
    Generally, though, pointless would mean without purpose, without
    some ultimate meaning, without the notion of some Divine plan.
    
    

    
    
    -1
    
     Given your definition I would probably eat a .357 mag.
    
    
    David

Note 809.6
    
>     Given your definition I would probably eat a .357 mag.

All the more reason to leave it undefined, then.

Peace (no suicides, please),
Richard

    
    
    -1
     
     Life not pointless so relax Richard:-) :-)
    
    
    David

Everyone is here faced with the last great alternative.  Do we die into
nothingness or into the ultimate reality?  Belief in a resurrection is
trust that we _die_into_God_, instead of assuming that life is ultimately
meaningless.  So death and resurrection are very closely connected.  The
resurrection comes about with death, in death, from death.

    Richard,
    
    It is already too late for your life to be pointless.  I have warmed my
    hands at your fire and sipped from your new wineskins.
    
    Ruth
    

    
    
    -1
    
      Gee I never got to go over to Richards house :-)
    
    
    David

re Note 809.3 by CSC32::J_CHRISTIE:

> Even if pointless, life is still good and precious.  I'd would still enjoy
> laughter and the laughter of others.  Making love with a beautiful woman would
> be no less pleasurable.  Work would still have its rewards, satisfactions and
> frustrations.  Riding a rollercoaster would be no less thrilling.  The sun
> baking the chill off my bones would be no less welcome.

        If the above is true -- and I certainly believe and feel the
        above, too -- then life would be anything but pointless.  Why
        would the existence or non-existence of a life after death
        nullify the value of all or the above?  (Or, conversely, why
        would it give the above any more meaning?)

        For me, the life of the spirit, eternal life with God, is
        just another wonderful thing about life (unique and special
        as it is). 

        For a contrasting opinion, the author of Ecclesiates 1:2,
        certainly from a spiritual perspective, wrote:  "Vanity of
        vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all [is]
        vanity."

        (In a way, I can see the argument going the other way:  if
        this present life is pointless and valueless, then why would
        anybody really expect eternal spiritual life to be markedly
        better -- especially if spent with a God who created a
        pointless and valueless physical world?  I do not subscribe
        to this, mind you.)

        Unfortunately, there really are people who experience, at
        least some point in their lives, none of the above goodness
        of life.  I can see how especially vital to them spiritual
        goodness can be, for it may be all that keeps them going.

        Bob

.11

Uh...Yes, Ruth has been to my house.  Other folks of C-P, too: Nanci
Van Fleet, Carole Fretts, Karen Berggren, Jerry Beeler, Steve Hayes,
Judy Kilgore, and Carol duBois.

I met Cindy Painter during a brief stay in Boston.

I've also had the pleasure of meeting Jill Kinsella, Julie Doro, Ace Lopez,
Steve Bittrolf, Cal Hoe, and of course, DAVID DYBEN. 8-}

Peace,
Richard

Excellent, Bob (.12)!

Ecclesiates, in particular, did come to mind whilst I was brooding over
this topic.  "All is vanity!" proclaimed the 'philosopher.'  Vanity, as
he expressed it, might be understood as "vain," "futile," "meaningless."
Yet our cynical author in other passages still sees the value of life,
unpredicable and fleeting though it may be.

There doesn't need to be something beyond this life, it seems, to make this
life worthwhile.

At the same time, it is truly a tragic thing when one's life holds little
joy and much suffering.

Peace,
Richard

    
    
    
    > of DAVID DYBEN
    
    ... yeah but, I never got to go out to your house Richard :-)
    
    
    David_the_outcast

    Back to .0  :-)
    
    Hmmmm...  but life *isn't* pointless.  I *KNOW* better.
    
    Anyway, if it were I still believe that Love is its own reward.  God or
    no God, point or no point it is still a worthy goal.
    
    Tom

Note 809.15

>    ... yeah but, I never got to go out to your house Richard :-)
    
Well, we're just gonna have to do something about that, David.  I remember
we'd talked about getting together outside Digital before, but never managed
to make it happen.  Maybe in January.

I regret I failed to mention that I also knew Mike Valenza and I'd
met Mikie Morgan.  I *knew* I'd leave out somebody.

Peace,
Richard

If all we are is the result of natural selection and random, circumstantial
juxtaposition, if there were no Yahweh of the Bible, if there were no hope
of afterlife, would this be reason for despair?

Why or why not?

Shalom,
Richard

    
    >would this be reason for despair?
    
    Nah.  It would, however, be a great reason to PARTY *now*!  8(;^)
    
    I also heard that there may not be any beer in Heaven (some 
    prophetic song on the radio), but I'm really hoping that there
    is champagne (au natural).  Otherwise I'd *really* despair.  
    
    Cindy

    The truly amazing thing about this question is that I did consider
    myself an existentialist for a while and I did despair over the image
    of life being no more than a fly flying through a window, into a room,
    and then out again.  It was the most depressing period of my life.
    
    Thanks be to Goddess/God, I cannot even comprehend that image any more.
    
    Patricia

>If all we are is the result of natural selection and random, circumstantial
>juxtaposition, if there were no Yahweh of the Bible, if there were no hope
>of afterlife, would this be reason for despair?

I'm not sure about despair... sort of I guess.  I think the biggest thing
that comes to my mind is that the world would look a lot like it does
in the United States today.

If my life is meaningless, then so is yours.  If you are inconvenient to me,
and you're meaningless anyway - bang - you're dead.  Why should I bother
myself with fretting over it - it's all meaningless, and I have no God to
answer to.  Someone may 'bang' me next...  so eat, drink, and be merry,
for tomorrow we die.  Yeah, that's pretty despairing.

Happy New Year...

-Steve

    
>if there were no Yahweh of the Bible, if there were no hope
>of afterlife, would this be reason for despair?
    
    Not necessarily. On the other hand there would be little reason in the
    world to be or act morally.
    
    		Alfred

Note 809.22

>>if there were no Yahweh of the Bible, if there were no hope
>>of afterlife, would this be reason for despair?
    
>    Not necessarily. On the other hand there would be little reason in the
>    world to be or act morally.
    
Alfred,

	So, are all societies without Yahweh of the Bible immoral?  Do all
atheists act immorally?

Peace,
Richard

    
>	So, are all societies without Yahweh of the Bible immoral?  Do all
>atheists act immorally?

    No and no. And I didn't say or even imply that. I'm just saying that
    other basis for acting morally are very very unconvincing to me. I
    wasted some time arguing this with a philosophy instructor in a class
    I took (Computer Ethics) for my MS on this. He and our texts both
    started with the assumption that morality is not dependent on a higher 
    form of being and refuse to deal with the arguments against such an
    assumption. It all used circular logic as far as I could tell.

    No, people do build moral codes on other things but I believe they
    do so out of convenience more than conviction. Good intentioned but
    I am not about to build a sandcastle on a beach and live in it thank
    you very much. :-)

    			Alfred

re Note 809.24 by CVG::THOMPSON:

> >	So, are all societies without Yahweh of the Bible immoral?  Do all
> >atheists act immorally?
> 
>     No and no. And I didn't say or even imply that. I'm just saying that
>     other basis for acting morally are very very unconvincing to me. 

        I can understand this.  I find that even some of the
        arguments of people who claim Yahweh of the Bible as their
        basis to be very very unconvincing to me.

        But does "what convinces me" carry much weight?  (Does "what
        convinces you" carry much weight?)

        Apparently many people do find other bases for acting morally
        to be quite convincing.  So what?

        Some of them have a good deal more conviction than many
        Christians.  Some of their moral codes are anything but
        convenient.

        Bob

    RE: .25 You are right. I was answering, when I said there'd be little
    reason to act morally, for myself.
    
    			Alfred

    There would be little reason to act morally for anyone.  If this life
    is all there is... then we are reduced to nothing more then an animal
    and would become a society of the fittest would be the only to survive.
    
    Nancy

Perhaps if I learned that life were completely pointless I would spend my days
making life more pointful.

Peace,

Jim

    Jim, you may very well... but the nature of animals who have no moral
    code is the survival of the fittest... the more philosophical, slower
    bugs tend to eaten. :-)

    re .0

    > What if you discovered that life was totally pointless?  How would
    > that knowledge change your life, if at all?


    Eventually, some bright young individual would come along and create 
    religion... the concept of a higher power, a deity(s) to assign meaning
    to life. To instill order in the society, rules and laws will be
    revealed and credited as being the directions of the higher power, with
    the threat of divine wrath to ensure compliance.

    Eric

     I have found myself feeling very much like my life is
    totally pointless; more times than I care to count. God's love and 
    quidance have been the key to keeping me going.
    
    Marc H. 

RE:                       <<< Note 809.30 by HURON::MYERS >>>

    re .0

   > > What if you discovered that life was totally pointless?  How would
   > > that knowledge change your life, if at all?


   > Eventually, some bright young individual would come along and create 
   > religion... the concept of a higher power, a deity(s) to assign meaning
   > to life. To instill order in the society, rules and laws will be
   > revealed and credited as being the directions of the higher power, with
   > the threat of divine wrath to ensure compliance.

    
  You neglected the part about this bright young individual coming up with
  a saviour that would give his life for all of humanity, most of which would
  totally ignore/reject such a sacrifice..you also neglected the concept of
  sin, however doing so would have meant for this bright young individual
  to write that there is indeed a higher power than himself and that he cannot
  save himself.  Which, in my opinion is what differentiates the Bible from
  ordinary literature.  No human being would come up with a concept that 
  condemns himself and provides salvation by any other means than by himself.




  Jim

    re .32

    > You neglected the part about this bright young individual coming up
    > with a saviour that would give his life for all of humanity, most of
    > which would...

    This is not part of the Jewish faith and yet, when asked, they will
    profess to have meaning in their lives. Given enough time, I am
    confident this bright individual could develop a way-cool religion that
    will incorporate your suggestions.

    To make you feel better I will grant you that your religion,
    specifically your view of your religion, is the only true, correct and
    real religion... all other world faiths are cheap human concoctions.
    The heathens of the world created these bogus religions to give meaning to
    their life. If life were proven to have no meaning, a new religion
    would blossom to give it meaning.

    By the way, I neglected to mention that my replies are largely written
    with tongue-in-cheek. 

    
    Enjoy your meaningful life,

    	Eric

re Note 809.32 by CSLALL::HENDERSON:

>   Which, in my opinion is what differentiates the Bible from
>   ordinary literature.  No human being would come up with a concept that 
>   condemns himself and provides salvation by any other means than by himself.
  
        Balderdash!

        The last 2000 years have given ample example of how Christian
        teachings are often used to give some human beings power over
        others.  This would provide ample human reason, if one were
        needed, for human beings to come up with the concepts and
        promulgate them.

        (I'm not saying I believe this -- however one can't argue
        that a human could have no purely human motivation to sell a
        Christian-type message.)

        Bob

    Do you ever imagine if the cascading clumps of wildflowers beside the
    mountain stream contemplate the pointlessness of their existence?

    Have you ever looked at a sunrise, beheld the glory of light returning
    to the land, and not felt *something*?

    Watch a room full of three-year olds.  They are guiltless and 
    unapologetic.  They know they are wonderful, beautiful...scampering
    little wildflowers, radiant bursts of sunshine.

    How can anything that *is* be pointless?

    Ruth

    > Watch a room full of three-year olds.  They are guiltless and
    > unapologetic.  They know they are wonderful, beautiful...scampering
    > little wildflowers, radiant bursts of sunshine.

    You don't have children, do you. :^)  Guiltless? Hardly. Unapologetic?
    Definitely. More like a rage of swarming bees, if you ask me :^)

    Eric (All in jest)

    RE: .31 That makes, at least, 2 of us.
    
    		Alfred

    Well, I must admit that yesterday, I was feeling that very same
    thing...  Had a very rough morning with my youngest son, experienced
    feelings that haunted me throughout the day... :-(
    
    My youngest son is 7.  Being a working Mother is at times too
    difficult.  As a secretary, I am most accountable for being in by 8:00
    A.M., therefore, when *incidents* happen in the morning with my
    children, oftimes, I don't have the time or patience to deal with the
    matters.. and my frustration mounts... it leaves me feeling very
    inadequate...
    
    Nancy

Re: .18 Richard

>If all we are is the result of natural selection and random, circumstantial
>juxtaposition, if there were no Yahweh of the Bible, if there were no hope
>of afterlife, would this be reason for despair?

I don't think so.  Life has whatever meaning we choose to give it.  For
most of us, as long as we are alive we can pursue happiness.  One person might
be happy when they can read a good book or watch a good movie. Another person
might be happy when they fall in love or raise a family. Another person might
be happy when they do whatever their religion tells them to do.

Re: .21 Steve

>If my life is meaningless, then so is yours.  If you are inconvenient to me,
>and you're meaningless anyway - bang - you're dead.  Why should I bother
>myself with fretting over it - it's all meaningless, and I have no God to
>answer to.  Someone may 'bang' me next...  so eat, drink, and be merry,
>for tomorrow we die.  Yeah, that's pretty despairing.

If you kill me and someone else kills you then neither one of us will have
any further opportunities to pursue happiness.  It doesn't sound like a
very sensible thing to do, and luckily most people don't do things like
that.

Re: .22 Alfred

>    Not necessarily. On the other hand there would be little reason in the
>    world to be or act morally.
    
I don't agree.  There would still be good reasons to act morally (although
you and I might not agree about what is "moral").  First of all, if you act
immorally you might be caught and punished.  And second, if too many people
act immorally then society will break down and we'll have anarchy, which
would be a bad thing for most of us.

Re: .27 Nancy

>    There would be little reason to act morally for anyone.  If this life
>    is all there is... then we are reduced to nothing more then an animal
>    and would become a society of the fittest would be the only to survive.
    
A society where only the fittest survived would be less efficient than one
where people cooperated with other for their mutual benefit, so even if
this life is all there is (as I think it most likely is) there are good
reasons to act morally.

				-- Bob

    I do have a child and they attract playmates like doghair on a wool
    suit.  And I stand by my initial observation.  They haven't the
    slightest sense of guilt about anything.  They don't know the meaning
    of a schedule, a calorie, or a deadline.

    I have yet to meet an existentialist three-year old!

    If I recall correctly, this is how we enter the Kingdom. 

    Know that you are beautiful like the flowers on the hill, even with all
    the Camus-induced angst.
    
    Ruth

Interesting.

I remember once when I spoke, I mentioned children as those
who are so obviously selfish, sinful creatures.

I see both sides.

Collis

    re  Note 809.41 by PACKED::COLLIS::JACKSON 
    
    What you say is true once they're school aged... :^)