Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

Luke 6.20-45, 10.25-37, 12.22-34, 13.7-14, 17.7-10

Matthew 25.31-45

James 1.19-2.26

Isaiah 58.6-12

Amos 5.21-24

Micah 6.6-8

Proverbs 25, and especially 31.8-9

    Richard,
    
    Shall I call you the artful dodger? :-)

    Nancy,
    
    You call me....nah, it's been done.
    
    The answer to me is very simple.  One acts like a Christian not
    by following Christ, but by walking in Christ.  That answer, however,
    would be insufficient for most readers here.  Many don't wanna hear
    anything that ain't in the Bible.
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    

    .3
    
    Pray tell me dear Richard, how does one do either without the Bible?
    
    Nancy

| <<< Note 804.4 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>



| Pray tell me dear Richard, how does one do either without the Bible?


	With one's heart....


Glen

    You miss the point Glen, how does one know of Jesus at all without the
    Bible?
    
    

 Re .6



 Make things up as you go along?

	Nancy, you can get to know OF Jesus with the Bible. You get to KNOW
Jesus with the heart.



Glen

    Glen, I think you have something there! :-)
    
    First comes the Bible, which gives us knowledge, then our hearts must
    respond to that knowledge.
    
    

               
    Christ has also made Himself known to many who have never seen a Bible.
    
    Granted this does not happen all that frequently that I am aware of, 
    however it does happen.        
    
    Cindy

  >Make things up as you go along?

		"Sing God a simple song
		 Make it up as you go along..."

From Leonard Bernstein's _Mass_, and the source of my personal name.

Peace,

Jim

	Nancy, while we both agree we can learn of Jesus in the Bible, I think
where we would part company is when one lets the book run their lives. I think
then things become stagnant and you lose some capability to grow in Christ.


Glen

    .13
    
    I would agree with you that this where we part ways... however, God's
    Word is living... it's not stagnant.  
    
    I've grown incredibly following the teaching in this Bible, Glen.  And
    the wonderful part is I'm still growing... I don't know it all, I
    haven't stopped learning and I'm awed each week at the lessons learned
    through the principles being placed in action of the Bible.
    
    Nancy

	I'm glad to hear it Nancy. But would you say the same of me (that I
have grown)? I have more, but I'll wait fer your answer.


Glen

    .15
    
    Uh.. Glen, unfair question to ask me... I wouldn't ask you to guage my
    growth, you're not here with me.  Unless you saw something so flippin'
    obvious it just couldn't be mistaken... sorta like the mole on my
    cheek! :-) :-)
    
    Sorry can't honestly answer.

>	Nancy, you can get to know OF Jesus with the Bible. You get to KNOW
>	Jesus with the heart.

I realize this 'heart' word can be rather touchy - it means different things
to different people.  But, here's why I have trouble with people saying that
so many things in the life of faith rely on the heart:

"The LORD ... said in his heart, 'Never again will I curse the ground because
of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood."
Genesis 8:21

I see "the heart" as part of our sinful nature.

And I believe that Galatians (and other passages) instruct Christians to
be led by the Spirit of God (the person, the 3rd part of the trinity), not
by the heart.  Gal 5:16-18 (keeping in mind my previous paragraph).

To live as a Christian, being led by the Spirit, will produce the "act
like a Christian" things - "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace,
patience, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.
Against such things there is no law.  Those who belong to Christ Jesus
have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.  Since we
live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.  Let us not become
conceited, provoking and envying each other."   Gal 5:22-26

-Steve

re Note 804.17 by CFSCTC::HUSTON:

> >	Nancy, you can get to know OF Jesus with the Bible. You get to KNOW
> >	Jesus with the heart.
...
> "The LORD ... said in his heart, 'Never again will I curse the ground because
> of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood."
> Genesis 8:21
> 
> I see "the heart" as part of our sinful nature.

        This is certainly true -- as it is true of every part of a
        person's being -- including their eyes and their ears and
        their mind.

> And I believe that Galatians (and other passages) instruct Christians to
> be led by the Spirit of God (the person, the 3rd part of the trinity), not
> by the heart.  Gal 5:16-18 (keeping in mind my previous paragraph).
  
        Certainly the Spirit of God should lead, but the Spirit of
        God leads one through their being -- heart, mind, soul -- all
        part of our sinful nature.  Are you perhaps being a bit picky
        here?  The statement made was "You get to KNOW Jesus with the
        heart".  Clearly the heart isn't leading in this context, but
        following -- Jesus.

        Bob

Note 804.4

>    Pray tell me dear Richard, how does one do either without the Bible?

Dear Nancy,

	God makes Godself known whether or not you have a Bible.  God
made Godself known before there was ever a canon.

	It is an awesome thing to encounter the living Christ, to hear
with your own ears the still, small voice of God.

	I have also experienced the presence of God in Christ speaking to me
through others.  These persons' lives are so Christ-ful that it's utterly
obvious, like the light from a city built on a hill.  Some of these persons
have shared with us in this very conference.

	Had there been no one Christ-like in my life, the Book would have
meant relatively little to me.  And you know something?  Some of these people
don't even call themselves Christian (but neither did the Samaritan of whom
Jesus spoke in the parable).

	I am not now advocating, nor have I ever advocated, disregarding
the Bible.  To me, that would be like advising somebody about to embark
on a long trip to toss out all their maps or guidebooks.

	Now, it may not seem like it to some, but I do take the Bible
seriously.  At the same time, neither do I idolize the Bible.  That would
be like giving prestige to a roadmap.

	I don't believe we need to confine ourselves to the Bible.  But
in case you hadn't noticed, I do not do without the Bible.

Shalom,
Richard

		Hi!

	I have been following this string with interest.  I could not
	help seeing a parallel between (some of) the replies to the
	base-note question and to a more "earthly" situation. Let me be 
	more explicit.

	At sometime in ones life, one meets a person for whom one finds,
	at first, at least a "someone special" feeling. You meet again,
	talk, question each other, go out together, get closer. This may
	happen several times to each of us. Some of these relationships
	take seed, others fall by the wayside. One (most usually) takes
	a particularly strong hold.

	There comes a time when you, and the other person, decides to
	make the relationship permanent.  It is here that you *both*
	make a leap of faith.

	It is also the beginning of *really* getting to know each other.
	The separate agendas of the past have now become a single agenda.
	You do everything together (my wife and I have learned that, even
	at those time when we decide to be alone, we "go our separate
	ways - *together*.")  You eat together, walk together, sleep together.
	You share *mutual* tribulation, mutual joys. You cry and laugh
	together. Sometime, you experience each other at a very intimate
	level but, most of the time, you each live with the knowledge that
	the other is there.

	If you make a mistake which can harm the partnership or your partner,
	you can turn to your partner for help and for forgiveness.

	And you perform miracles together. (If you ever helped your partner	
	make a souffl� which did not collapse when served, you'll know
	whit I mean. :-) ). Seriously: Those who have raised children will,
	I am sure, agree.
	
	It is, in short, a beautiful relationship at the bottom of which
	stands a leap of faith which was taken by both partners.

	If I have learned anything out of CP - as especially this string -
	my understanding is that some Christians see their relationship
	with Jesus in much the same light. This is what, I feel, that
	Richard meant early in the string when he spoke of "walking in
	Christ."  Others, I feel, would not agree: their partner has
	made his leap of faith once and for all (death on the cross) and
	it is now the turn of each individual to follow suit (commit
	oneself). Some of these might even go so far as to say that,
	unless one makes this follow-up leap, one has (virtually) no
	chance of salvation. This is a leap which I cannot make and it is
	the reason why I cannot call myself a Christian, although there have
	been many who have called me a Christian, or "an Angel" (and, let it
	also be said; a Devil).

	One thing is absolutely certain, I would not crucify my partner
	- or my son - in order to perfect or fulfill the relationship.
	
	Greetings, Derek.

	Steve, that essentially is what I am talking about. If I use a book to
get to know who Jesus was, some of the things He did, then I know of Him. But
through constant prayer, not just the kind where you're on your knees, but
through dialougue at any part of the day, I ask for guidance, how can I help so
and so and what do I need to do to remedy situation X, and a whole host of
other things. Through this dialogue He becomes closer to me, and the love in my
heart grows along with my faith. Yes, there are times where He tells me to do
things that I may not want to do. But if things are going to work out the way
He has planned, then they have to be done. 



Glen

    re .17
    
    One of my favorite Christmas card this year says "only with our hearts
    can we know the miracle of Christmas."  Obviously the heart is a
    metaphor.  Paul in 1 Corinthian 5 talks about the body being the temple
    of the living God.  In fact, that is why Paul is so adament against
    sexual sin because he states it defiles this temple of the living God.
    For me the heart metaphor speaks to where and how we encounter the
    Holy Spirit.  We encounter this Spirit not with the brain which allows
    us to understand complicated theological principles but with the heart
    that lets us know directly that God is and that God is Love and that
    God cares deeply about you and I and everyone else.  For me when a
    spiritual person talks about following ones heart they are talking
    about following their hearts encounter with the Holy Spirit.  The heart
    is the Center of our temples to the Living God.
    
    Patricia  

Title:   Love: The Path of Unity
Author:  Dr. Javad Nurbakhsh

Two questions are addressed in this paper:  First, what is unity from
the Sufi point of view?  Second, how can one achieve such unity?

Sufism is based on Islam and has often been characterized as the school
of Unity of Being.  There is only one Being and whatever exists is a
manifestation of that Being.  For the Sufis the discovery or 
understanding of the Unity of Being is not an intellectual matter, 
rather it is a matter of direct experience.

The Spiritual world is different from the intellectual world in both its 
goal and method.  The goal of the spiritual world is to discover the 
ultimate Truth or the Unity of Being within oneself.  And the method of 
spirituality is none other than love.  It is only through love that 
spirituality can direct mankind towards unity.

Cultural and religious unity in an everyday exoteric form, even if 
desirable, cannot be achieved in our current multi-cultural, 
multi-racial and multi-religious societies.  What brings unity and 
harmony amongst very diverse religious and spiritual schools is the true 
realization that what they are after, the ultimate Truth, is one and the 
same thing for everyone.  To miss this point is to create disunity and 
disharmony.

It is only through love that man can truly see that all acts of worship 
when performed out of sincerity of the heart, lead to one and the same 
thing.  And it is only through God's remembrance that man can hope to be 
able to learn how to love.

    Quite frankly I agree with Richard's description of the Bible and how
    it applies in our lives... the fork in the road comes when you pick and
    choose what you like from the Bible and throw the rest out the window.
    
    I believe the Bible to be inerrant, and if one thing is untrustworthy,
    then the whole book is untrustworthy... and therein lies faith in vain.
    
    However, if the whole book is True, therein lies eternal life with God
    himself.
    
    Nancy

    .20  I found that very helpful, Derek.  It enabled me to see from
    a perspective other than my own.
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    

    Also see topic 816 "The Talk and the Walk."
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    

	Title: The Bible
	Author: God

	"And God said..."

    
    I always wondered about that, Ace.
    
    Who was there to record those words? 
    
    Cindy

	re.28

Why Cindy, obviously God was there to record those words. He later revealed
them to Moses to write down so you and I could enjoy them together...

Ace

    
    What language were they in, Ace?
    
    How did God record them?
    
    Cindy

God recorded them through the hand of Moses.

God spoke them in whatever langauge he wanted to.  :-)

Collis

    
    There weren't any independent witnesses to verify that God said the
    words?
    
    How can we trust that this is true, then?
    
    Cindy

re.30

	Collis has figured it out Cindy!  8*)

	The beauty in this is that in God's mercy and love towards us, He
arranged to have those words translated into a language intelligible to us. Our
understanding of it however, depends on how much we allow His Word to dwell in
our hearts. 

	Understanding the real meanings in the Bible is strictly a heart matter
at this point. The more our heart seeks after Him, the more light we will
receive, the more exposing we will experience, the more repenting we will do,
the more cleansing we will receive, the more Life we will receive, the more
rejoicing we will do, the more seeking we will do, the more light we will
receive...

Regards,
ace 	

    
    Yes, I do realize that, Ace.
    
    However, still you slipped out of that rather eloquently, I'd say.
    That answer would never hold up in a court of law, you realize.  (;^)
    [What?  No witnesses?, they would say.]
    
    One thing does stand out, and that is that God-through-Moses must have 
    used the language he knew at that day.  Therefore, the description of 
    the creation is still using a human - complete with language limitations,
    along with not being there when it happened, along with translations
    down through the centuries (etc.) - and probably nowhere near what really
    happened.  Not to say Moses 'lied' or anything, but just that in
    describing such an incredible event, *we* may be suffering from the
    limitation of all these 'filters' down through the centuries.  
    
    Having read much in the other religions re: how Creation began, then
    stripping away some of the filters of the Bible that I perceive (using
    my heart and intellect), I see far more similarities than differences.  
    It's quite amazing, actually.  The Aboriginal stories, the Mayan
    stories, the Hindu stories...such richness, and so many similarities too.
    
    Cindy
                                                           

Well, I didn't know you wanted something that would stand
up in a human court of law.  I thought you just wanted
the truth.  :-)

I agree with you that God speaking into existence the universe
may not be quite what we envision in human terms.  Then again,
it may be exactly what we envision.

Collis

re Note 804.35 by PACKED::COLLIS::JACKSON:

> I agree with you that God speaking into existence the universe
> may not be quite what we envision in human terms.  Then again,
> it may be exactly what we envision.
  
        Actually that is exactly what I envision when I hear the
        phrase "word of God", as in "let there be light":  God
        speaking into existence, God speaking into action.

        Bob

Several years ago I attended a conference in New York City.  Assembled
for the meeting were theologians, pastors, priests, nuns and lay church
leaders.  At one point a Native American stood up, looked put over the
mostly white audience, and said, "Regardless of what the New Testament
says, most Christians are materialists with no experience of the Spirit.
Regardless of what the New Testament says, most Christians are
individualists with no real sense of community,"  He paused for a
moment and then continued: "Let's pretend you are all Christians.  If
you were Christians, you would no longer accumulate.  You would share
everything you had.  You would actually love one another.  And you would
treat each other as if you were family."  His eyes were piercing as he
asked, "Why don't you do that?  Why don't you live that way?"

					- Jim Wallis
					 _The Call to Conversion_

	Aristides described the Christians to the Roman emperor Hadrian
in this way:

	They love one another.  They never fail to help widows; they
save orphans from those who would hurt them.  If they have something
they give freely to the man who has nothing; if they see a stranger,
they take him home, and are happy, as though he were a real brother.
They don't consider themselves brothers in the usual sense, but
brothers through the Spirit, in God.

	The early Christians were known as much for the way they lived
as for what they believed.

re: .38 and .39

Ouch.

 Re .38 and .39



 I just finished a book by Chuck Colson called "Faith on the Line"..he
 quoted the statment in .39 I believe.

 While certainly some Christians will fit the descriptions in each of those
 notes, I don't believe one can make a blanket statement that includes all
 Christians.  My church is just one small church of many and I can say that
 there is plenty of community involvement, and plenty of outreach to the needy
 and plenty of outreach to the imprisoned.  Most churches of which I am aware
 don't do a lot of publicising of all that they do, but I believe if one were
 to look closely one would find evidence that would contradict .38 and .39.



 
Jim

    .41  I don't believe .38 and .39 speak of the church as an institution,
    but of the community of faith before it crystallized, and more
    importantly, before it was westernized.
    
    Even if we consider the community of faith to be limited to just
    our own households, however, the qualities in .38 and .39 are still
    largely absent.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    
    PS  My source was Jim Wallis of Sojourners.
    
    

RE:           <<< Note 804.42 by CSC32::J_CHRISTIE "Pacifist Hellcat" >>>

       
   > PS  My source was Jim Wallis of Sojourners.
    


    Yep...I know I read the quote somewhere recently, and I believe it was
    in the book I mentioned by Chuck Colson...



    Jim
    

	"You can become a Christian by going to church just about as easily as
    you can become a car by sleeping in the garage."

					- Garrison Keillor
					  "Prairie Home Companion"
					  radio broadcast, 6/25/94

    I like that one.  Our youth group does a cool skit along those lines
    called the "Airport."
    
    Mike