Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    "spawned"; that's cute, Richard
    
    	Shalom,
    
    	Ron
    

I prefer BVDs myself.

.-)

Jim

    Re: 18.524

>>    Suggesting a non Christian  use the term A.D. is oppressive and
>>    therefore not trivial.  The term requires them to recognize foreign
>>    deities as there own.
    
>>    Suggesting a Christian use the term C.E. is not oppressive.  It
>>    implies the Christian era is the Common Era.  To the Ecumenical Christian
>>    the term is trivial. 
    
      So does CE mean Christian Era or Common Era?  I'm having trouble with 
      this Patricia because the death of Christ is a historical fact.  Take 
      the religious aspect out of it, it is still historical.  If you say
      Christian Era, it sounds like a semantics issue since Christianity is
      based on Christs death and resurrection.  If C.E. means Common Era, well,
      it sounds warm and fuzzy but what does it mean??  

      Also, should we ban the Chinese and Jewish New Year celebration in
      America?  That could be offensive too.  Don't you see, this is a 
      heritage issue.  The U.S. has a Eurocentric base formed mainly of
      people from a WASP and Catholic background.  Sorry if I seem insensitive 
      but let's deal with it.  Common Era is meaningless, Christian Era has
      Christian overtones anyway, A.D. is the foundation chosen as a base to
      record history.  Regardless of the reason for Good Friday, it is a 
      HISTORICAL fact that we as a Eurocentric nation choose to base our 
      historical clock on.  

      -Jack

Re: .3 Jack

>      Regardless of the reason for Good Friday, it is a 
>      HISTORICAL fact that we as a Eurocentric nation choose to base our 
>      historical clock on.  

I thought 1 A.D. was supposed to be the year of Jesus's birth (more or
less), not the year of Jesus's death.  Anyway, there is very little
historical evidence for or against the existence of Jesus, other than
what's in the Bible.

				-- Bob

re Note 745.3 by AIMHI::JMARTIN:

>       If C.E. means Common Era, well,
>       it sounds warm and fuzzy but what does it mean??  
  
        It means just what it says: the common year numbering system
        in general, secular, international use today.  In general,
        one would probably want the unit of measure to be denoted by
        the term minimum, in words and implications, necessary to
        distinguish it from others in use.

        (I am one of those persons who has been annoyed by the
        change, in my lifetime, of "cycles per second" to Hertz and
        "centigrade" to Celsius -- however, unlike the politically
        correct crowd of the right or of the left, I never thought it
        was worth making a fuss about since I don't worry about the
        implications of every last term I use.)

        Bob

    Bob:
    
    To answer your header, yes I think it is a waste of energy to worry
    about things like this.  With me, the bottom line is I have no respect
    for the political correctness movement in this country.  I think it is
    divisive and silly 99% of the time.  It is these types of issues that I
    speak up against, not so much because I have a passion for BC, AD, CE,
    or the like, but because I believe the PC movement in this country is
    ripping us apart and heading us in the same direction as countries like
    Yugoslavia.  Equal but separate.  Nuff said!
    
    -Jack

    RE: .6
    
    Well Said!
    
    Marc H.

re Note 745.6 by AIMHI::JMARTIN:

>     With me, the bottom line is I have no respect
>     for the political correctness movement in this country.  I think it is
>     divisive and silly 99% of the time.  It is these types of issues that I
>     speak up against, not so much because I have a passion for BC, AD, CE,
>     or the like, but because I believe the PC movement in this country is
>     ripping us apart and heading us in the same direction as countries like
>     Yugoslavia.  Equal but separate.  Nuff said!
  
        But do you similarly have no respect for the conservative
        ideologues in this country who are divisive and, much worse
        than silly, dangerously misleading 99% of the time?  These
        people too rip our country apart by declaring that attitudes
        or perspective of decades earlier are the only valid ones.

        You cannot simply blame others for ripping something apart
        when your own feet are planted firmly and your own fingers
        are grasping tightly and your own arms are pulling.

        Bob

    Bob:
    
    Please give just a few examples of conservative ideologues so I can
    address more clearly.  Are you talking about issues like the right to
    bear arms?  Are you talking about the Pat Buchanans of the world? 
    Your point is well taken, just help me understand this because the PC
    movement seems to always stem from the nonsensical jibberish of the 
    far left, hiding behind the racism/sexism label and what not.
    
    Thanks,
    
    -Jack

    Bob,  (RE: .8)
    
    Anytime your talking about extremes there is danger.  But you appear to
    paint all Christian as Extreme Right-Wing Conservatist who desire it is
    to brainwash everyone.  That is not the case.  As a typical Christian I
    don't see the danger of:
    
    - Having schools go back to teaching predominantly Reading, Writing,
    and Arithmetic and the like and enough of a does of self-worth, the
    golden rule, and consequence-based thinking.  I'm not talking about
    indoctrinating them into anyone's religion.  Maybe our kid's scores
    have been going down because we've simply gotten away from teaching
    them the basics and have started teaching them to be
    socially-something-or-other.  Put the money towards books not just
    programs.  Get more parent/citizen-helpers in all the schools, not just
    at the elementary school level.
    - That government can't fix every problem we have and alot of the ones
    they try to fix, they actually make worse.   We've got to teach
    self-responsibility and giving out of compassion.  Everyone should have
    health care, but reforming insurance is critical to it's success. 
    Eighty-percent of health care is repetitive and easily handled.  Have
    the first goal be getting the people that don't have any coverage at
    least this basic coverage, then move on from there.
    
    - I think we need to look for alternatives to abortion.  This is a
    major surgery which is largely unregulated.  Plus there are also links
    to it increasing womens' risk of cancer.  We have more birth control
    methods available at the lowest cost than any other nation.  Abortion
    should not be our number 1 choice of birth control - it's too big a
    health risk.  Sure I would like abortion not to be an alternative at
    all - but I'm willing to help us move towards safer methods rather than
    just staying at a stalemate over this.  
    - We need to stop bashing parental rights.  These are the people that
    should know their kids the best.  Not that some don't fail in this
    role, but do we really teach people to raise their kids in a healthy
    manner.  Not hardly.  Teach abstinence-based sex education in school. 
    The majority of these programs have parent involvement through material
    designed to get you talking with your child about critical issues that
    affect all our lives and allows the parent to share their views with
    their child.
    
    - Do something about things like the availibility of guns, drugs, and
    the like.  We need to take back our streets. Deport non-residents who
    are dealing in drugs and arms. Stiffen penalties and make them stick
    for people who are involved in this stuff.  Develop voluntary
    citizen-funded and citizen-staffed programs that are trained in helping
    people improve their neighborhoods, bring in jobs, train kids and
    adults for brighter futures.  Use the government as a resource to help
    in that - but not the ultimate solution.
    - Start making congress and local and state governments more
    responsible.  Get people to realize that we own our nation's success,
    not the politicians, not the rich, and certainly not the media.  It
    should be widely publicized what our leaders are doing, not just the
    highlights, not only on a cable channel. Their voting on issues,
    attendance, and their spending should be in every newspaper and running
    frequently on public TV stations. People are apathetic because they
    don't feel like they have enough information to make the right
    decisions.  Well I think we can change that (Holy cow...I sound like
    I'm running for office!)
    
    This covers my main issues as a Christian.  I don't think they you'll
    find them to be extreme and I don't think I'm pushing my values onto
    anybody in these.  Ah...but there is one other which is probably more
    heated.
    
    - Sexual orientation is a hot topic that America is largely split on. 
    It shouldn't be crammed down everyone's throats, nor should any person
    be mistreated based on their sexual orientation.  If we teach our
    children the golden rule, there shouldn't be an issue. It shouldn't be
    a subject that we indoctrinate kids with in our schools, just as other
    personal choices like religion aren't. There should be no forced hiring
    quotas and the touchiest issues such as gays in the military should be
    looked at - at length - within the miliary ranks.  There are factors
    that exist within the military that the public-at-large does not have
    to deal with. This shouldn't be a political debate, it should be the
    decision of those who are willing to put their necks out for this
    country. 
    
    Jill
    

re Note 745.9 by AIMHI::JMARTIN:

>     Please give just a few examples of conservative ideologues so I can
>     address more clearly.  

        Sure -- the examples have appeared in this conference in this
        discussion.

        Some conservative ideologues are claiming that to use "CE"
        and "BCE" out of deference to non-Christians is "a denial of
        Christ".

        This is pure conservative nonsensical gibberish. �

        Perhaps it is liberal far left gibberish to suggest that we
        use "CE" and "BCE" out of deference to non-Christians.

        It would seem to me that if the latter is nonsensical
        gibberish the former is, too.

        Bob
        ++++

        � Perhaps I am being too kind to suggest that that this is
        conservative nonsensical gibberish.  It is just possible that
        the motivation for this is deliberate mean-spirited offense
        against those who don't share the conservative viewpoint
        (after all, that's what an ideologue would do).

re Note 745.10 by CSC32::KINSELLA:

>     Anytime your talking about extremes there is danger.  But you appear to
>     paint all Christian as Extreme Right-Wing Conservatist who desire it is
>     to brainwash everyone.  That is not the case.  As a typical Christian I
>     don't see the danger of:
  
        By no means!  I am a Christian, and I dare say that most
        Christians I know would be classified as moderate or left of
        center.  So I certainly don't "paint all Christian as Extreme
        Right-Wing Conservatives".

        My attack was on Right-Wing Conservatives who use certain
        speech and writing patterns, and denounce the use of other
        patterns, for political and ideological reasons.

        I understand that there is some overlap between groups, as
        there might be some overlap between, for example, litterbugs
        and Christians.  However, just because some litterbugs and
        Christians, I am not attacking Christians just because I may
        be attacking litterbugs.
          
        I don't quite see the relevance of the rest of your note to
        this topic.  (I actually agree with most of what you wrote. 
        It might come as quite a surprise to some here that I'm much
        more politically a libertarian than a liberal.  Though I am
        not a liberal, it is clear to me that conservatives' demand
        that AD and BC be used is at least as ideologically motivated
        as the so-called "political correctness" of using other
        terms.)

        Bob

    I apologize if this was already written and I just didn't see it.  We
    know that a historical Chinese individual actually founded the
    alphabet.  At least I thought I read this somewhere.  How did our
    dating structure originate?  i.e. Who originated the measurement that
    brings us to 1993?  
    
    Again, the use of CE or AD is irrelative.  We are still in the year
    1993 and the foundation of this date is based on Jesus Christ.  Whether
    it was from his birth or his death, people are still trying to
    administer therapeutic political correctness to feel good about
    themselves and suppress the truth.  Thats what makes it nonsense.  You
    can deny A.D. to the hilt, but it doesn't...it doesn't...it doesn't
    make any difference at all...I cannot stress this enough!
    
    -Jack

    
    		Historically, the Southern Baptist Convention has largely
    been democratic.  With the label of "liberal" attached , these days,
    you'll find more and more Southern Baptists claiming to be republican.
    From my perspective I see more consertives than I do liberals in the 
    Baptist Church.  
    
    	RE: Jill,
    
    		I understand your desire to see these "basic" rights become
    a norm as they used to be and with most of what you say I would agree. 
    I do think that we need to be more open to new ideas both with Church
    policy and with government policy.  50 years ago, the U.S. was
    basically a rural based society while today its more of an urban based
    society.  Unfortunatly many of the things that worked 50 years ago
    won't work today.  You'll find that most of the Evangilists today are
    preaching the very same thing.  Again, historically the Church has not
    adapted very quickly to the sociatial changes.  This I think is a
    mistake and has caused misunderstandings among the very people that are
    its primary purpose.  I believe that we are seeing a kind of change
    never before seen in this country and that is one based on the people's
    desire rather than the government directing that change.  Its an
    interesting time to be alive.
    
    
    Dave

    I choose to us B.C.E. and C.E. out of my personal respect for all
    people.  I have never suggested that others need to make this choice. 
    This discussion misses that point.  The point is not liberal
    evangelizing to change the symbol, but their personal choice.  The
    conservatives are irritated by this personnal choice.
    
    This implies that it is not a trivial issue for the conservatives. 
    There is an objection being made to someone else's decision about the
    personal language we use.
    
    forgive me for making this a liberal/conservative difference.  that is
    not really precice and I know it.  But the issue is a small group of
    persons making a personal choice to use a certain language and another
    group finding serious objection to it.
    
    Patricia

    I do not object to others using BCE/CE. I find it somewhat childish
    and immature but do not object. I only object to the suggestion that
    others, especially those who are Christians, use it.

    		Alfred

    Re: .16
    
    Exactly....
    
    Marc H.

    16 & 17
    
    So I read the reply,  "You can be childish and immature if you wish, I
    will not object"  
    
    I do not think there is anything childish and immature about my
    deciding to use C.E.  I don't think there is anything childish or
    immature about your using A.D.   The only issue I have is why do you 
    need to make judgements about my decision?
    
    Patricia
    

        
    >So I read the reply,  "You can be childish and immature if you wish, I
    >will not object"  

    That's pretty much how it was intended. You are a free person.

    >I do not think there is anything childish and immature about my
    >deciding to use C.E.  

    I disagree but we've already agreed to disagree on the issue I think.

>The only issue I have is why do you 
>    need to make judgements about my decision?

    Need? Who said anything about need? A free person can look at any
    decision and make a judgment as to the appropriateness of that decision
    in their own life. Should people not evaluate the decisions of others
    and the facts around it and there by remain closed minded and/or
    ignorant? I think not.

    			Alfred

Re: Note 18.512             
      Patricia:
    
>>    To use C.E. instead of A.D. is only offensive to those who feel that
>>    Christianity is the only way.  For a Christian to use C.E. shows
>>    respect for non Christians and does not in any way have to diminish
>>    one's Christian beliefs unless converting the whole world to
>>    Christianity is a central tennant of one's belief.    I believe that
>>    that is the heart of the issue.
  
      Gosh, I don't find C.E. offensive but I believe Christianity is the 
      only way.  Thats why I asked you if you give your opinion on John 14:6
      in the Ramblings string.  
      If you recall the great commission, Jesus told us to go out into the 
      world and make disciples of ALL nations.  Converting the whole world 
      is something only the Holy Spirit can do, but it certainly goes without
      saying.
      I'm not bothered by C.E.  In fact I imagine most people could care 
      less.  If somebody is bothered by A.D. however, well, we're a 
      Eurocentric nation based on a Judaeo-Christian ethic...Sorry!

      -Jack
               

    Alfred,
    
    So are you saying that you would be closed minded or ignorant if you
    did not evaluate my using the terms C.E. and B.C.E. and find my use
    of the terms childish and immature.
    
    The heart of the issue for me is a passionate belief in  a spiritual
    body that includes all of humankind whether they believe the Christ
    myth or not.  Can you imagine a "Body of Christ" that includes people
    who did not necessarily identify themselves as Christians.  I believe
    that language has a powerful symbolic value.  When I am intentional
    about my language, I choose to use language that reflect my passions
    and beliefs.  I know you do not share my beliefs.  But believe me
    there is nothing childish or immature about my intentionally using
    language that includes all people.  
    
    Object to the use because it challenges the assertion that Christianity
    is the only way.  I can understand that objection. I cannot fathom any 
    other reason why you would object to my language.
    
    Patricia
    
    Patricia  

    RE: .21
    
    "Christ Myth"?????
    
    You have got to be kidding.......
    
    Marc H.

    Patricia:
    
    What do you mean by Christ myth?

I suppose if you believe that Christ is a myth, it's much easier to use C.E.

/john

    If Christ is a myth, then we've had it!!! 

    Also see topic 570, "The Myth Note."
    
    Peace,
    Richard

    
    >So are you saying that you would be closed minded or ignorant if you
    >did not evaluate my using the terms C.E. and B.C.E. and find my use
    >of the terms childish and immature.

    Frankly I think you are going out of your way to distort things. I
    would be closed minded not to evaluate the terms. I did not say or 
    that coming to the same conclusion I did was the only mature thing.

>But believe me
>    there is nothing childish or immature about my intentionally using
>    language that includes all people.  

    CE is no more inclusive than AD. I know you believe it is but I don't
    think so. Intentionally using language that is inclusive is a good
    thing. Intentionally using language that devalues the beliefs of
    millions of people and gets in the way of communication is not, IMHO,
    a positive step.

    What terms do you use for the years in the Moslem, Hebrew and Chinese
    calendars? Modern pseudo inclusive ones or the original ones? If you
    do not have modern inclusive names for those years you are being, at
    best, inconsistent.

    			Alfred

    Alfred,
    
    I don't use the Moslem, Chinese, or Hebrew calendar so I am not being 
    inconsistent.