Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    No, but I've compromised on one only to regret it later. I abstained
    on a vote I should have said no on. This was used to state that the
    committee I was on voted unanimously on the issue. I try to avoid
    abstaining since that event.

    		Alfred

    Alfred,
    
    One of our two new churches voted with a few negative votes after our
    candidating service.  An open discussion (w/o us present of course) was
    held and a request for a unanimous decision was requested.  So, a
    second vote way made after a discussion period and a unanimous vote in
    the affirmative was received.  This has great symbolic effect in that
    it is meant to show that even in an autonymous polity, the voices of
    the people have come together even in their differences of opinion. 
    This also shows that people can be their own selves and yet still
    belong to and accept the voice of the gathered community.  In other
    words, a common vote erases what might have become: "See; I told you
    so" type of attitude.
    
    So, when you say you should have held on to your claim as the "no"
    vote, that does have far reaching consequences for which you may be
    responsible.  I think holding out for your convictions is a very
    difficult task and that it is something that must be done carefully
    each time something like this comes up.  This is not to say that I
    disagree with you in any way, just that it is a difficult thing to do
    either way.
    
    	Shalom,
    
    	Ron
    

    
    >So, when you say you should have held on to your claim as the "no"
    >vote, that does have far reaching consequences for which you may be
    >responsible.  

    Quite right! This is why I regret my abstention. If I had made my
    objection firm perhaps the right thing might have happened in the 
    final vote. I've always had a problem with calling for a unanimous
    vote after something has passed. It strikes me as devaluing of the
    feelings and opinions of the minority. If something is wrong people
    should say so. I understand the need to accept a decision that one
    believes is wrong and live with it and be a part of the group. That
    happens after every election in the US for example. 

    You had to life with Bush, I have to live with Clinton. Would you have
    gone back into the booth and cast a vote for Bush to show acceptance of
    the majority? Probably about as unlikely as me going back and voting
    for Clinton. I can not vote against my beliefs to show acceptance of
    the "gathered community" and be true to myself. It is an impossibility.
    I have occasionally used the abstention as a compromise but I grow 
    increasingly uncomfortable with even this.

    I have a button at home that reads "silence is the voice of
    complicity." I think that I would rather be remembered as one who stood
    for his principles against the majority rather than as one who went
    along.
    
    			Alfred

    Alfred,
    
    I'm not saying that I disagree with you.  What I'm trying to say is
    that there can be some extra goodness that can come out of a group that
    has some dissenters who have come to an agreement to work with the
    others in the group to make something happen in the positive that may
    not happen if people hung on to their "no" votes.  
    
    I too have been in situations like you have been in and one recent case
    I withdrew from a Pastoral Search Committee rather than abstain.  I
    even went so far as to remove myself from the local church so that I
    would not add more harm than what I perceived was highly probable to
    happen.
    
    In summary, I believe there are some situations in which a higher
    bonding of the community can exist when dissenters are allowed to voice
    their objections and then vote to still be part of a vote in which they
    are saying that the community - with and only with God's grace - can
    take on new possibilities when parties come together.
    
    	Shalom,
    
    	Ron
    

	Sometimes doing the right thing doesn't mean doing the easy thing.

					- my friends at the 700 Club

My sexually active, 18 year old stepdaughter is coming to visit us this week
from Tucson where she attends the U of A.  I have told her I don't want her
bringing her boyfriends into the house.  So because of this, she has decided
to stay at her boyfriend's house rather than staying here with us (which
I suspect she wanted an excuse to do anyway).

Now, as you might imagine, this situation has caused my wife, her mother,
no small degree of discontent with me.  For the sake of our marriage, I
recanted and said I'd compromise my principles; that I would tolerate
Jennifer's boyfriends coming to the house if she'd stay with us.  But
Jennifer's mind is made up.

I just know it's gonna be the week from Hell for the rest of the week for me.

Peace,
Richard

re.5

Tough situation. I've faced similar but can't say that I did the right thing
in retrospect.

ace

    Several years ago I was asked (or volunteered, don't remember which) to
    help my second oldest daughter and her 8-year older boyfriend move from 
    their apartment to a house.  The partment was a few blocks from my home
    in Manchester NH and the new home for them was a few blocks away from
    my house in another direction.
    
    I went to the apartment and everything was going ok for me until I came
    to their bedroom and got to moving the bed.  I couldn't handle it at
    the time and left without saying a word.  I simply freaked out.
    
    A few years later they married and they have been married for about six
    years.  I have my only two grandchildren from them.
    
    Weird; these parental problems, huh?
    
    	Shalom,
    
    	Ron
    

    RE: .5
    
    What a tough place to be in!!!!
    
    What would I do? I believe that your first choice is correct. Your 
    step daughter should visit without her boyfriend. Whether or not its
    "honest" or not, its the polite thing to do.
    
    My life with children has been a long struggle...mixed with joy.
    Sounds like yours is similar.
    
    Marc H.

    Yeah, to make things worse, Jennifer bears a long-running resentment
    towards me, because I've said, "No!" before.  She and I both have a
    strong stubborn streak.
    
    Well, she arrives this evening.  We'll see.
    
    Richard

    Richard,
    
    Not that your situation will be the same but ALL four of my daughters
    thought of me as a real HA when they were young adults (like ten to
    fifteen years ago).  AFter all, it was always I who said NO and it was
    always I who demanded that they be honest, open, and responsible for
    their actions.  I was viewed as cruel, tough and was close to being
    hated by most of them during one time or another.
    
    Its interesting and warming to me that they all have a different view
    of me today.  They have all said they love me dearly and that they now
    realize that it was good that I put them to the test of being
    responsible adolescents.  I've received a few letters from them over
    the past few years in which they have expressed their appreciation for
    my fatherly ways.
    
    Maybe I was tough and maybe I was too tough and maybe I'd offer them
    tough love again.
    
    	Peace,
    
    	Ron
    

The times I have backed down from what I believed to be
right, I have regretted it.  Stand up for what you believe,
love your daughter as best you can and let the chips fall
where they may.

Collis

    Richard,
    
    I think it was extremely good of you to change your mind
    after making what what may have been the least beneficial
    decision first. It is very good for your stepdaughter that 
    she has a stepfather who is adult enough to admit it when 
    he decides he was wrong. 
    
    I would be likely to feel as you did at first if she were 16 and not 18:
    no sleeping with boyfriends at home or anywhere. But 18 is not
    16 even if some 18-year-olds are no more mature than 16-year-
    olds. Twenty-one used to be the benchmark age, but it has gone
    down in this generation.
    
    Sadly, you may not be able to protect your stepdaughter anymore,
    Richard.  But the more you face this--the fact that she is no longer 
    a child and that you are no longer a parent who can control the life of 
    a child--the more you will be able to help her.
    
    This note has turned out to be long, but in short: you can help her
    by giving her something better in her life than the inappropriate
    relationships with the boyfriends.  Your relationship with her
    is the only way you can help her to find out what a nonexploitative
    relationship with a man is like. When she knows, she is much less likely 
    to accept anything less. 
    
    
    Step relationships are fraught with difficulties. (I grew up in
    something something similar to a step family.) Much has happened to
    your step daughter between birth and age 18. This young woman has had 
    big losses. She may be angry at her father or her mother, and may feel 
    abandoned, and may be looking for love "in all the wrong places." Our 
    culture confuses love and sex. How are the young supposed to tell 
    the difference when the grownups are confusing them with every 
    advertisement for toothpaste? The lucky ones have a trusting relationship 
    with parents who are healthy psychologically and spiritually,
    
    Your stepdaughter may be more able to be angry at you than at her 
    father. She may be afraid of losing him altogether if she tells him
    how she feels. (People should almost never give advice in notes files.
    Every situation is so different it is almost impossible to make a 
    helpful suggestion.) Sometimes we all get angry at the person we
    know won't abandon us even though the anger really comes from somewhere 
    else. 
    
    
    Unless her father was a person who constantly changed his mind on
    every issue, it will stand you in good stead that you changed your
    mind. This is especially true if you have been trying to control
    her up to now. 
    
    Last but not least, you and she will always be a part of the same
    family. So there is hope even if things go all wrong on this visit.
    
    With affection,
    
    Eileen
    
    

    
>My sexually active, 18 year old stepdaughter is coming to visit us this week
>from Tucson where she attends the U of A.  I have told her I don't want her
>bringing her boyfriends into the house.  

    Does this mean not at all or just not for sexual activity. If the
    former it does seem harsh, if the latter more than reasonable. It's
    your house and you have the right to make the rules there. My father
    set rules for the kids living in his house that remain to this day
    (youngest is 34). My brother who smokes is still not allowed to smoke
    in my fathers house. In fact my dad's mother in law is not allowed to
    smoke in the house either. Sexual activity by unmarried children, my
    step brothers are both unmarried, would also not be acceptable. 

    			Alfred

Any host has the right to set reasonable expectation when
a guest is in his house.  This extends even moreso to a child.

Whether it is smoking or immoral sexual activity, the host
has a right to require reasonable (in his/her eyes) behavior
while in his/her house.  A father has not only the right, but
the responsibility to expect his child to behave appropriately.
Loving the child does not mean accepting unacceptable behavior -
particularly in an unacceptable place.

Personally, I can't conceive of condoning/allowing immoral
sexual behavior by my daughter in my house.  It is an affront
against God and what He has taught me.  The question simply
comes down to one of obedience - my obedience to God.

Collis

I remember the story of Eli in the Old Testament.  A prophet
who did what was right in the eyes of the LORD - but who
did not control his children.  He allowed them to swindle
those who came to the temple and do whatever they wanted.
Because of this, the Lord brought disaster on them all.
Do we learn from the past?  Usually not - we go our own way
until disaster befalls us.

Collis

    Alfred,
    
    	I was banning all potential sex partners from the house.  I wasn't
    going to wait until the act was completed like I had with the last two
    boyfriends.
    
    Richard

    RE: .16 I see. Given the history, which you know much better then I,
    it was probably a reasonable restriction. I guess I understand your
    wife's reaction and your daughters as well. Though if I were your wife
    I'd be a whole lot more upset at your daughter for placing her
    boyfriends before her mother. Placing a spouse before child or parent
    I understand. Putting a boy/girl friend before a parent would bother me
    a great deal.

    			Alfred

    .17  It's a funny thing.  I can understand all of our individual
    reactions myself.
    
    About placing friends before a parent, it's not uncommon at her age
    and level of maturity.  I'm certain that she wouldn't come to visit her
    mother at all had we moved away from this area.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard

    Eileen .12,
    
    	I know the point of compassion from which I believe you are
    coming.
    
    	There's a history here much longer than I care to detail.  See
    Note 361.22 and following entries.  In addition, Jennifer has tried
    to sabotage my marriage to her mother for quite a few years.
    
    	When I recanted about allowing her boyfriends in the house, she
    still declined our hospitality.  She's staying at her boyfriend's
    parents' house.
    
    	And I have discovered that Jennifer's natural father, who is
    paying for this trip, has no idea of these arrangements.  Jennifer's
    father has been historically supportive of my decisions.  Deception
    is very much a part of how Jennifer typically operates.

    Peace,
    Richard

Answering the original question, which I believe was "Have you ever done 
something on principal and then later regretted it?":

Yes.  A few years ago (1990, I believe) we stopped by my great aunt's house
in Arkansas while we were on a car trip to Michigan (from Colorado).  My family
is all from the South and the Ozarks, and every summer while I was growing up
we used to go to visit this aunt.  When I reached adulthood, I continued my
visits at my own expense, though not every summer.  My family is small, and
on this side of the family the only ones who were left was this aunt, myself,
my father, and one other great aunt.   My aunt was about 85 and had married 
a man about 10 years younger.  I had met him previously, on a trip there
with my father, I believe.  He is very bright, and had been a very successful
businessman dealing with the politicians of the state, among others.

As soon as my (female) spouse, our 1 1/2 year old son, and I arrived at the
motel in town, we called my great aunt and her new husband and told them we had
arrived.  We asked if we could come right over (they had been expecting us). 
My aunt sent her husband out to get us, for us to follow him there in our car. 
As soon as he arrived at the motel he started making lewd comments to us. 
He told stories about his lesbian neice and how he liked hearing her have 
sex in her bedroom, and he insinuated that he wanted to have sex with us.
We were *appalled*!  

He continued this behavior whenever my great aunt was out of earshot.  He even
made lewd gestures to my spouse with his tongue.  

We were only there 2-3 days but were shocked and didn't know what to do.
When we finally got a chance to talk together we found out what he had
done and said in private with each other and how both of us had unsuccessfully
tried to ignore it or change the subject, etc.  Both of us had also been 
taught that in abusive situations you *don't* keep secrets or protect the
abuser.  Since we had been unsuccessful trying to "politely" change things,
we decided to confront him and ask him to please stop saying and doing these
things.  Since I am literally *frightened* of abusers, I was afraid to be 
alone with him, even with my spouse there.  We thought of the words we wanted
to use, to do less accusing and more asking for a change of behavior.  We
decided to talk with him with my great aunt present, for both the reason of
my fear and also because if he would not change then I wanted her to know
why I couldn't visit her anymore, and that it had nothing to do with my love
for her (which is immense).

So, we tried talking with him the next morning.  He was loudly denying he had
done anything before we even got the words out about what he *had* done.
Nevertheless, even with his obvious guilty attitude, he said we were lying,
and she took his side.  She ran off crying, and told me that I obviously
didn't love *her*, because I would tell her these things after she had 
finally found love (her marriage to my great uncle was *very* abusive).
At that point, she locked me out of her house and disowned me.

I still grieve.  She still lives, and is in good health.  I have written her
twice, and she has not acknowledged these letters.  

I believe it was the right thing to have confronted him.  In principle, I 
believe she should have known about it.  In reality, I believe I should have
confronted him privately (that thought still makes me frightened, if I were
alone I do not swear that he wouldn't rape me) or at least without her around.
Since I am sure he would not have changed his ways, it would have been the last
time I would have seen her.  I don't know how I could have explained that away
without lying or hurting her, as she would think I wasn't visiting her anymore
because I didn't love her.  It was a lose-lose situation in many ways, but
I sure lost a lot when I lost her love, and I hate that she hurt so.

    Carol

    .20
    
    Good example Carol.   As I was reading your note, I could vividly see
    this situation unfold.   And it brings up a very valid question, why do
    women believe their lovers over a child, other family relative when
    they are confronted with that lover's abusiveness?
    
    Off topic, but I've experienced the same thing with my mother.  She
    never believed us kids ... 

    The situation which brought about this string has passed.  My
    stepdaughter (now 19) is presently living in Phoenix under her
    natural father's roof.  He's now having to deal with similar
    issues with her (743.5).
    
    Much to her chagrin, it turns out her father is of the same mind
    as me.
    
    I agree that people are usually as sick as their secrets.
    
    Peace,
    Richard