Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    
>Israel has been busy getting things ready to start their 
>    sacrificial system within possibly only a few years (the dome of the 
>    rock seems to be the only hold up).  

    I've heard this for years but only from Christians. What is the source
    for this? BTW, the Dome of the Rock being the only hold up is a very
    serious thing. If Israel were to even suggest taking it down to put
    up a new temple there would be serious war. Not like those little
    wars Israel has had over the past 40-50 years or so. And they would not
    be likely to get much help from the west on it either. So let's not 
    discount that with words like "only."

    I made a conscious decision a few years ago not to look for signs of
    the end times. It's all too easy to read things into events when one
    really wants something to happen. Jesus will return as a thief in the
    night and I'm content to be surprised.

    			Alfred

In Chuck Colson's book, "Kingdoms in Conflict", he
presents a scenario where the dome is blasted out and
a new temple is erected according to full specifications
within days.  Although the account is fiction, it is
footnoted that, in actuality, everything is already in
place for this to really happen.  Knowing the devoutness
of some Jews, I'd be surprised if everything was NOT in
place for something of this kind to happen.  Wouldn't you?

Collis

 
 It most certainly is an exciting time, though we probably have a way to go.
 And, as Jill points out, there is work to be done.




 JIm

    Praise the God of Shalom!
    
    Praise the God of Salaam!
    
    It is One and the same God.
    
    The recent events involving the relationship of the Palestinians
    and the Israelis are, I believe, of greater significance than the
    dismantling of the Berlin wall.
    
    Peace,
    Richard

    Frankly, I really would like to believe the world was coming to an
    end soon. After all who wouldn't like to go to heaven? I believe that
    as a Christian I have an obligation to stick around and do God's work
    until He either returns or calls me home. But sometimes that's hard.
    
    			Alfred

    Hi Alfred,
    
    >    I've heard this for years but only from Christians. What is the
         source for this? BTW, the Dome of the Rock being the only hold 
         up is a very serious thing.
    
    Let's also not forget that it will be God's doing, not any person or
    group's effort, so that dwarfs the task immeasably.  Actually the info
    I got was from a Christian broadcast talking about current events and
    also a book entitled "Ready to Rebuild" by Thomas Ice and Randall
    Price.  According to the talk show this Randall Price has ins in Israel
    with all kinds of Rabbis and Israelis who are working on this.  The
    Israelis have everything they need for the actual construction of the
    temple and estimate they could do it in 1-1/2 years.  They actually
    believe in 3 possible locations of the temple, one scenario is mostly
    in the courtyard of where the Mosque is. Also they have talked about
    moving the dome of the rock.  They supposedly have 150 men in training
    for the priesthood of Levite ancestry.  They have already started
    weaving their outfits.  They already have casts made for all the things
    needed to furnish the temple and I think it said they had all the gold
    and jewels they needed.  So it sounds like the Israelis areclocking
    alot of time on this even though they may not be talking about it a
    whole lot.
    
    I think it would be natural for Christians to look at this in this way
    rather than Israelis being that they have downplayed prophecy and
    discounted the first coming of their Messiah.  Also, I'm not saying
    that we just stop everything and wait for His coming.  Even though it
    seems like the stage is set, it could still be hundreds or even
    thousands of years till Christ comes, but it could be soon too!  And
    wouldn't that be glorious!
    
    Nice to see ya back Richard.  I'm glad.  Just a comment on your note.
    
    >It is One and the same God.
    
    I do believe they refer to the God of Abraham, but I do wonder about
    Islam's description of that God.  It doesn't match up with the God of
    the Bible, or even the God of the Old Testament.  It's my understanding
    that Muslims believe that you may do everything that Allah wants you to
    do for salvation, but that He could decide on a whim not to give it to
    you.  Hardly seems like a God I would want to put my faith in.  So
    while they say that it's the same God, he would seem to have different
    characteristics than the God the Bible speaks of.  But I still believe
    there will be peace because God foretold of it.
    
    Jill

    
>    believe in 3 possible locations of the temple, one scenario is mostly
>    in the courtyard of where the Mosque is. Also they have talked about
>    moving the dome of the rock.  They supposedly have 150 men in training
>    for the priesthood of Levite ancestry.  They have already started

    Moving the Dome? Easy enough. They going to move the rock too? :-)
    Seriously though moving the Dome would not go over real well either.

    BTW, there is a big problem with knowing the location of the temple.
    Until that's determined exactly no construction can begin. And even
    then many if not most of the builders will have to be priests because
    only priests are allowed in the Holy of Holys (or where it was and
    will be.)

    			Alfred

    Who hears the prayers addressed to Allah?  No one?
    
    Richard
    

re Note 725.8 by CSC32::J_CHRISTIE:

>     Who hears the prayers addressed to Allah?  No one?
  
        Since, as others have pointed out, "Allah" is the Arabic word
        for "God", I assume God does.

        Bob

    .9  Me, too!
    
    Richard

	Bruce,

	It depends on the prayer. Then whether God answers your prayer depends 
on other factors.

Regards,
Ace

    Bruce??
    

re.12 Richard

> Bruce?

Yes. I want Bruce to answer my question. 

Is that unreasonable?

ace

>Yes. I want Bruce to answer my question. 

>Is that unreasonable?
    
    Not a problem for me, ace.  I just haven't figured out who Bruce is.
    
    Peace,
    Richard

re.14

>   Not a problem for me, ace.  I just haven't figured out who Bruce is.

	Richard,

	Exactly. Unless we call on God properly, He will not respond either.
Not just any name will do!

	Having directed your prayer in the right direction 8*), my second point 
is that God would hear your prayer, but might not answer it. This points to the 
need for us clear up any hinderances we may have, for such things will prevent 
God's releasing the answer. Unrepented/unconfessed sin, not obeying your
conscience, worldliness, etc. are examples. Also asking for the wrong thing. 

	Or He may answer it, but the answer gets hung up on the way. In this
case we need to be diligent to pray for the answer to proceed quickly and 
timely. This requires a heart full of faith to believe that God has already
sent the answer, it just hasn't arrived yet!

Regards,
Ace

    Hmmmm,
    
    	Well, Art, I've been giving God way too much credit, then.  So,
    since God is not a proper name (as Bruce is), I take it that praying
    to God must be roughly equivalent to addressing it "To Whom It May
    Concern."
    
    	All this time I thought God could read the human heart.
    
    Reynaldo

	re.16

	Octavian 8*)

	His name "Lord Jesus" will cover all the bases. Use it!

Flavius

    Aye, Carumba!
    

    
    Well Alfred,
    
    Yes, they have talked of moving the rock.  As for the other information
    I couldn't confirm it as I don't have the book.  Actually I don't
    remember my O.T. as well as I should.  Did only priests build the 
    temple or did it not matter until God came to dwell in the temple 
    once it was done?
    
    Richard,
    
    I agree basically with Ace's analogy and also knowing someone is more
    than knowing a name.  I believe there are people who call God 
    "Allah" and understand who He is.  But I don't believe Islam 
    represents the true God.
    
    Jill

.19

>    I believe there are people who call God 
>    "Allah" and understand who He is.  But I don't believe Islam 
>    represents the true God.
    
Julie,

	I believe there are people who call God "Lord Jesus" and
and understand who he is.  But I don't believe all of Christianity
represents the true God.

	I'm afraid the little object lesson was too simplistic of a
portrayal of God for me, though it might be appropriate for a fourth
grader.  Taught Sunday School, Ace?

Rin-Tin-Tin

In article <725.20-930923-220338@valuing_diffs.christian-perspective>, [email protected] (Pacifist Hellcat) writes:
|>Title: Is prophecy being fulfilled before our eyes?
|>Reply Title: (none)
|>
|>
|>	I'm afraid the little object lesson was too simplistic of a
|>portrayal of God for me, though it might be appropriate for a fourth
|>grader.  Taught Sunday School, Ace?
|>
|>Rin-Tin-Tin
|>

Richard,
	And here I thought that Jesus wanted us to be like children in
our faith. I must have a faulty memory... 8-)

-- 
---
Paul		[email protected]
Gordon		[email protected]
Loptson		databs::ferwerda
Ferwerda	Tel (603) 884 1317



			
[posted by Notes-News gateway]

re.20

Beauford,

>	I'm afraid the little object lesson was too simplistic of a
>portrayal of God for me, though it might be appropriate for a fourth
>grader.  Taught Sunday School, Ace?

	When children have trouble grasping the facts, you lead them into a
little experience. Usually the smart ones catch on. 8*)

Buck

    And I sort of liked "Gertrude" myself as the Divine name.
    
    I guess I really miss Mike and his wit.
    
    

    Funny how the wrong name can be used and we can still discern exactly
    to whom the message is addressed.
    
    "Bruce" was a problem because there was no Bruce.  Is there no God,
    also?
    
    When I was a child, my speech, feelings, and thinking were all those
    of a child; now that I am a man, I have no more use for childish ways.
    (I Corinthians 13.11)
    
    Peace,
    Richard

    Since I brought him up, here are some other examples of information 
    provided in Chuck Missler's newsletter:
    
Magog Positioned
----------------
Ezekiel 38-39 is famous in that God intervenes on behalf of Israel and it
portrays the use of nuclear weapons.  It is moving fast upon the horizon.
"Magog" was identified by ancient writers including Hesiod (7th century BC) and
Herodotus (5th century BC) as the Scythians.  These are the ancestors of today's
Russia.  "Persia", the ally of Magog is today's Iran.

Russia is currently sandwiched between the its traditional enemies.
German-dominated EUC to the west and Japan and China to the east.  Russia is
forced to form a new power base to the south.  Russia's perceived destiny is
with the world of Islam, focusing on the radicals: Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Libya.

Yeltsin is being pressured from the forces that came to his rescue in last
October's power struggle: foreign ministers, oil and gas industry, intelligence
community, and the military-industrial complex.

Moscow also needs the hard currency from the arms trade.  Russia is trying to
become the biggest arms supplier to Third World Countries.  They have the
technology and capacity to produce first-rate weapons at competitive prices.
Their first quarter sales of 1993 exceeded all of 1992's sales.  Remember the
Magog of Ezekiel 38 is not only the leader in the invasion, but also the
supplier of weapons (Ezekiel 38:7).

Rafsanjani of Iran has purchased $2.2B of combat aircraft and spares from
Russia, including at least 12 TU-22's.  From Iranian Air Forces bases near
Tehran, the 1,370 mile range TU-22-M3 bombers can reach Istanbul, Tel Aviv,
Cairo, and the waters of the Persian Gulf, and the whole of Saudi Arabia and
Pakistan, putting any target in the Middle East at risk.

In Yeltsin's recent duel with Parliament, the Army came to his rescue and turned
the tide.  The 4 elite divisions sealed the fate of the Parliament coup.  The
cost to Yeltsin is that the Army is clearly in control and is more indispensable
than ever.  There are presently 30 border conflicts in the former USSR.  Over
the last 18 months, from Moldava to Tajikistan, military force has proved
effective and commonplace.  Those who wield the force have the clout in
strategic councils.  The checks and balances of democratic political control are
entirely absent.  All of the top people are old-school Soviet security
personnel.  They regard the current political framework as simply transient
circumstances.  Russian security services detained 90,000 people and expelled
10,000 more from Moscow.  Yeltsin shut down 15 opposition newspapers and 1
hostile TV show.  Yeltsin's previously announced elections next June are being
"reconsidered."  11 of 15 former USSR republics have experienced forcible
changes and now have former Communists in power.  Intelligence reports state
that most of these were orchestrated by Moscow.  On Russia's southern rim, the
Caucasus region is currently torn by bloody conflicts.  All of these conflicts
mix elements of nationalism and Islam.

Bottomline: the West, particularly this country's administration, is being sold
a bill of goods about democracy in Russia.

Moscow-Tehran Connection
------------------------
The lead ally of Magog in Ezekiel 38 is Persia, which is modern-day Iran
(Ezekiel 38:5).  Russia fears a fundamentalist Islamic uprising throughout
former Soviet Central Asia and in the Russian Federation itself.  The Central
Asian republics are a key factor with 60M Muslims presently spread across 5
independent states.  This appears to be solved with the agreement between
Russia's Foreign Minister Andrei Kozyrev and Iran's President Rafsanjani.
Kozyrev even traveled to Tehran with Moscow's own senior Muslim cleric to
emphasize Russia's own Islamic credentials.

Russian needs Iran's restraint in Central Asia and the price is supporting
Tehran's more important ambitions elsewhere: Persian Gulf, Red Sea, and of
course Israel.  It is suspected that the Islamic commitments could well prove to
be the "hooks in the jaw" that will draw Russia into the ill-fated Magog
Invasion of Israel (Ezekiel 38:4).  

Iran's Arms Buildup
-------------------
Iran is the current emerging and most radical Middle Eastern power.  Rafsanjani
has announced his ambitions in his "Grand Design."  He plans to unite the entire
Muslim world into an Islamic Crescent from Indonesia in the Pacific to
Mauritania in the Atlantic.  He announced that they now have the resources (both
cash and weapons) to finally disconnect the Middle East from the traditional
Judeo-Christian order of the West.

Iran's purchase of 7 nuclear warheads from Kurchitov (nuclear stockpile near
Moscow) and from Simipolatinski (ICBM base in Kazakhstan) was reported earlier
this year.  These warheads have a shelf-life of 7 years and already 2 years
old.  Moscow's nuclear cooperation with Iran now also includes supplying 2
nuclear power plants, training nuclear technicians, and establishing nuclear
research facility in Isfahan.  The U.S. has been trying to stop all of this but
with no success.

Iran's military positioning includes a naval focus on 2 strategic objectives:
the Red Sea (where 25K ships pass per year) and the Strait of Hormuz in the
Persian Gulf (which passes 25% of the world's oil).  The Iranian Port Sudan
access, along with the annexation of Abu Musa island in the Persian Gulf (and
its control of the entrance through the Strait of Hormuz) has also put more
significance on Iran's recent acquisition of the 5 Russian Kilo-Class
submarines.  These submarines were in addition to the recent purchase from
Russian of $2.2B of additional aircraft and spares (for those 115 aircraft that
fled to Iran during the Persian Gulf war last year).  Iran has spent $14B
upgrading its air forces in the past 3 years.

Saudi Arabia
------------
In Ezekiel 38:13 "Sheba & Dedan" are modern-day Saudi Arabia.  They're nervously
on the sidelines, neither participating in nor interfering with the intended
plunder of Israel.  The current turn of events is quite threatening to them.
Especially with the increasing Iranian naval forces.  Rafsanjani has been
training his operational forces for amphibious operations under conditions of
contamination.  He doesn't need to do this to invade Israel.  This implies that
an Arabian invasion is part of his ultimate strategy.  No wonder Saudi Arabia is
nervous.

Rise of Islam
-------------
Meanwhile, Islamic militantcy is growing strong in the Middle East.  Preying
upon people's contempt for corrupt government, widespread unemployment, and
poverty, Muslim extremists are increasing their hold from Algiers to Amman, from
Beirut to Aswan.  These are highly educated, deeply religious, determined
people.  Their goal is domination of the region, by the sword if necessary.
Syria, Iraq, Iran, Sudan, and Afghanistan have now formed a strategic alliance,
now with Magog backing.  The curtailing, and eventual expulsion of, Western
influence in the Middle East is the key goal, and of course, the destruction of
Israel.

United States
-------------
The decline of the U.S. has become increasingly apparent to all sophisticated
observers.  Even without the disastrous policies of the current administration,
our economic (and moral) decay appears irreversible.  The question remains for
each of us, what do we do about it?  If lavish spending and increased taxation
could save a crumbling economy, the Rome would still be ruling the world.  And
it appears to be getting a second chance!

An Empire Re-emerges
--------------------
For centuries, Biblical scholars have been expecting a revived Roman Empire
(Daniel 2, 7; Revelation 13).  This major theme of Biblical prophecy has been
approaching like a glacier for decades and now has taken a major turn with the
signing of the Maastricht Agreement this year.  It still needs a strong leader.
One is coming and is probably alive today.

Israel "Peace" Accord
---------------------
The Arab-Israel conflict is not about borders, although the Islamic propaganda
continues to so influence the media.  It is the *existence* of Israel, not the
size of Israel, that is the crux of the matter.  Territorial concessions by
Israel will not end the conflict.  In fact, any territorial concessions are
destabilizing and will deny Israel the use of conventional responses and force a
nuclear response.  And it will do nothing to discourage further Muslim
incursions and intrigues.  In the next Middle East war, *both sides* will have
nuclear weapons (I Thessalonians 5:3).  There are many who believe that the
weapons that will be used in the famed Battle of Armageddon are already in
inventory.

Ezekiel 38 describes the only battle in all of the Bible, where the Holy Spirit
inspires to write about the post-war cleanup efforts.  The battle descriptions
and cleanup precautions pretty much describe the use of nuclear weapons.  In
addition, when the USA and USSR were legitimate global superpowers they were the
only ones with nuclear capability.  They kept global order by virtue of their
cold war relationship.  Now you have 22 countries with nuclear capability, half
of which violently hates the other half.  Also, the global superpowers are no
longer there to keep international order.

The Temple
----------
The preparations to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem are, of course, some of the
most provocative elements of Biblical prophecy.  3 times in the New Testament,
it is alluded to (Jesus - Matthew 24:15, Paul - II Thessalonians 2:4, John -
Revelation 11:1-2) and this continues to be an area closely watched by all.  The
real obstacle is, of course, not archaeological, but political.  The Muslim WAQF
controls the Temple Mount since Moshe Dayan yielded it to them and they have
become ever more belligerent and obstructionist towards further studies of the
Mount.  Any serious undertakings on the Temple Mount await a drastic change in
the political situation.  Some believe a leadership will emerge that has
acceptability to both the Muslim and Jewish interests.  We can only watch and
see.  It is interesting to observe all the world events continue to focus on
Jerusalem, just as Zechariah predicted (Zech. 12:2-3).

Babylon Re-emerges
------------------
The numerous allusions to both historical and prophetic Babylon throughout both
the Old and New Testaments (Isaiah 13, 14; Jeremiah 50, 51; Revelation 17, 18)
has fascinated Biblical observers for centuries.  The destruction predicted in
the Bible has never taken place.  That implies that Babylon has yet to
experience that specific destruction, which, in turn, implies that it must
re-emerge in world history.  And it has already begun.  Saddam Hussein has
spent the past 20 years rebuilding Babylon on its original foundations.

Summary
-------
Magog is increasingly being positioned for the battle of Ezekiel 38.  Inside
intelligence indicates that it could happen at any time.

There is now a "Peace" Accord with Israel.

The USA (conspicuously absent in the final Biblical scenes) is propelling itself
toward oblivion, due to ignorance of the electorate, the arrogance of the
leadership, and the deliberate conspiratorial agenda of the global socialists.
The rapid decay of moral values, and the resulting economic decline, appear
irreversible within any reasonable time span.

Maastricht has accelerated Europe toward a global union.  The long sought-after
"Revived Roman Empire" doesn't appear to be quaint any more.

All this is in the context of Babylon, being rebuilt on the banks of the
Euphrates, and preparations for rebuilding the Temple in Jerusalem.

Biblical scholars have been dreaming of these very days for centuries!  And
these events are accelerating faster than one can take them in.  The idea seems
preposterous: that history has been revealed in advance and that the world is
heading toward a dramatic climax.  And yet, it is undeniably evident as we watch
global events from a Biblical perspective.

The "End Times"?
----------------
Hasn't every generation felt that theirs was the "End Times"?  But no previous
generation has any of the specific requirements.  Israel had not been restored
to the Land.  They were not in control of Biblical Jerusalem (the Old City).
There has been no Temple to fulfill what Jesus, Paul, and John predicted.
Babylon was in ruins.  Europe has been in separated pieces, remnants of the
breakup of the old Roman Empire.  Now it isn't just one of these: it's *ALL* of
them!  Every element of the classic, centuries old, prophetic scenario is now
moving into place.  With increasing velocity.  The more one knows about the
Biblical scenario, the more obvious it becomes.  The real question is, what
should we do about it?

Being Amercian was once something special.  Most of us truly love our country
and it saddens us to see it slipping away like this.  Here are some alarming
things that point to America's downfall through the economic realm.  The United
States we knew as children, is for all intents and purposes, over already.

First of all, don't confuse the deficit with the debt.  The debt is the
existing debt.  The deficit is that which we keep adding to the debt.  Set
aside the deficit and imagine that we balance the budget.  The existing debt of
the U.S. consumes 57� out of every tax dollar this year.  We don't have the cash
to pay the interest, so we borrow to pay the interest.  This is known to the
lender as compound interest (or gambler's ruin).  In the timeframe of 1995-1997,
estimates say that the interest on our existing debt will exceed the total tax
revenue from income and corporate taxes in this country.  There will be no money
after taxes for the government.  We have already used up our assets and are
bankrupt.  We're now using up our borrowing power and only survive because we
are able to borrow.  The day will come when we no longer will be able to borrow.
Our debt in this country is increasing by $1B (billion!) *EVERY DAY*!  And this
is without addressing the deficit spending that is increasing the debt at a
greater rate!

Most economic experts know that an economic collapse coming.  What they don't
know is 1.) what form will it take? (i.e., depression, hyperinflation) and
2.) how long will it take to get there?  In the meantime, the government is
doing all it can to confiscate assets to pay the interest.  In 1992, *52,000*
Americans had all their property seized without due process of law, which raised
$800M for the government.  In 80% of the cases, there were no charges filed and
they have no way of clearing their name.  With everything seized, they have no
money to hire attorneys.  In the few cases where they did have assets to pay for
clearing their names, after 2-3 years of court proceedings, they cleared their
name but never recovered their assets.  Why?  Because the government distributed
the assets.  20% to the informers that led to the seizure, 80% to be kept by the
controlling government agency.  The good news is that there is enough
communication about this now that Washington will have to act on it, but you can
see the government is desperate to find ways of generating revenue.

There are 2 things the government can't do.  They can't raise taxes much more
than what Clinton has already proposed, and they can't afford for interest
rates to go up because it will brutalize their debt.  One of the major
motivating factors behind the national Health Plan is cash flow for the
government.  In it, government will control 52� out of every medical dollar.
Again, here you need to see through the rhetoric.

Look at all the increases in society.  Everything was nominal until the early
1960's and everything starts escalating: teen pregnancies, violent crime, etc.
News reports are consumed by crime stories - society is coming apart.  Many
point to U.S. Supreme Court decisions then around school prayer (1963) and
ultimately Roe vs. Wade, as major contributors.  Coincidence?  Maybe but
highly doubtful.  We have an administration that promotes immorality.  Other
administrations weren't model citizens, but they didn't openly promote
immorality.  Look at condom ads on TV, these violate FCC broadcasting rules for
advertising and are also lies.  HIV cells are 1/10 of a micron and latex has
pores in it that are 5 microns large.  It's like firing a BB-gun through a
chain-link fence.  They have a 30% failure rate.  Another tragedy is the
current administration's policy for the support lies and deceit.  

The smart money today is moving to the sidelines.  The chief investment officer
of Morgan Stanley has stated publicly, "I'm moving my money as far away from
Bill & Hillary as I can."  The real problem is not financial but moral - II
Chronicles 7:14.  Only a miracle can save the U.S., but the good news is that
God is in the miracle business.  See how God worked through Jonah to save
Ninevah.  They repented from top-down when they were 40-days from ground zero,
and God spared judgment on them.

We don't know how long the U.S. has, but current indicators say it won't be
long.

    Here's one of my favorites...
    
Periods of Israel's history
---------------------------
This originally comes from Clarence Larkins published in 1919.  From Abraham to
the Exodus, (starting with the promise in Genesis 12:4) there is a period of 505
years.  If you subtract the period of disfellowship with God (15 years with
Ishmael), you get 490 years.

From Exodus to the completion of the first Temple, (I Kings 6:8) there's a
period of 601 years.  Except when you study the book of Judges carefully, there
are 6 servitudes of the judges, totaling 111 years.  When you subtract 601 - 111
you get 490 years again.

The next period goes from the Temple (I Kings 8 ~1005 BC) to Nehemiah (~445 BC)
you have 560 years.  This period includes the 70 years of Babylonian captivity.
560 minus 70 = 490 years (there's that number again!).

From Daniel under Artaxerxes to the first advent of Christ, there is 483 years.
Add the 7 years that Israel had set aside and you have the 4th 490 year period
in Israel's history.

What's significant about the four 490-year periods?  4 � 490 = 1960 years.
Wouldn't it be like God to give the church any less?  Isn't it interesting that
the church was born on Pentecost?  (49 days after the Feast of First Rights? not
sure about the Feast name but it was in 32 AD).  If you add the 1960 years to
the threshold of 32 AD, it would imply that the rapture could happen any time
after 1992.  Interesting speculation...

Just to add to that, the above shows that God has at least forgiven Israel 4
times 70 � 7.  When Jesus Christ was asked how much should we forgive our
brother, most of us thought the 70 � 7 was just a figure of speech.  What he's
really saying is that's how many times God has forgiven you (Israel).

Interesting background on Ezekiel 4
-----------------------------------
In Ezekiel 4 there is a strange prophecy which deals with the 430 years of
judgment on Israel.  Of those, 70 we can account for due to the Babylonian
captivity.  Subtracting that, you get 360 years.  The problem with this, and is
typical of prophecy, is that it doesn't fit anything.  However, in Leviticus 26,
there is a Hebrew phrase that implies that God will multiply punishment by 7 for
every time you disobey.

Some scholars have pointed out that if you multiply 360 years by 7 you get 2520
years.  That's approximately the time from the Babylonian captivity (5th
century BC) to the current day where Israel is back in their land.  But it's
sloppy because of the overage.  However, nobody applied the insights of Sir
Robert Anderson to this idea.  He's the one who figured out Daniel's 70-week
prophecy and the arrival of the Messiah in Jerusalem using the 360-day prophetic
years (which is standard in the Bible).  

Assuming the 2520 years are 360-day years, that turns out to be 907,200 days.
Not too terribly exciting, until you put it together, but it can be somewhat
complicated.  If you take 2,483 years times 365-days, you get 906,295.  You have
to then consider leap years and the mistakes in the Julian calendar.  In 1752
Pope Gregory realized that the Julian calendar was 11 days behind.  That year he
declared September 4th to be September 11th to correct it.  Then they also
corrected the leap-year formula (i.e., century-mark years like 1800, 1900, and
2000 are no longer leap-years).  To make up for this, there's 614 days you have
to add to the 906,295 days, yielding 906,909 days.  Now to get the 907,200
days you have to add 9 months and 21 days.  To make a long story short, the
interesting conjecture around the period of time implied by Ezekiel 4 is 2,483
years, 9 months, and 21 days.  So what you ask?

The next problem is when do we start counting this.  The Babylonian captivity
is spoken of being 70 years, but to be consistent, you have to treat those as
360-day years also.  This would amount to 25,200 days.  Using a 365-day year
(taking leap years into account), you would get 69 years and is only 2 days
short of the 25,200 days (70 years with 360-day years).  Another problem that
is a little bit more complicated: when did captivity actually start?  If you
do your homework carefully, you will find out there are two different types
talked about in the Old Testament.  One is called the servitude of the nation
of Israel.  The first siege of Nebuchadnezzar on Israel in Daniel 2 starts the
captivity and it lasts 70 years to the day.  The first siege started the
servitude.  Another period of time talked about is the desolation of Jerusalem.
In Jeremiah you read about the second siege.  Jeremiah was placed into prison
as a traitor for saying not to rebel against Nebuchadnezzar.  The prophets kept
saying not to rebel against Nebuchadnezzar because he was the judgment from
the hand of God.  There is also the 3rd siege on Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar
where he finally had a belly full and completely destroyed Jerusalem and
carried King Zedekiah off the Babylon (as prophesied).  The point is the
desolation of Jerusalem also occurred for 70 years and many think they are the
same period, but they're not.  The desolation started with the 3rd siege, but
the 2 70-year periods are not co-terminus.

Time Calculations to the founding of the nation of Israel
---------------------------------------------------------
That yields another problem:  what to do with the 2,483 years, 9 months and 21
days?  It's well documented that the captivity following the first siege was
over in July 23, 537 BC (started in 606 BC).  Now keep in mind that you have to
throw a year in there because there's no year 0.  Now add 2,483 years, 9 months
and 21 days to July 23, 537 BC and you get May 14, 1948 when David Ben-Gurion
(sp?), using Ezekiel as his authority, announces on international radio the name
of the new Jewish homeland: Israel!  As the Rabbis say, "Coincidence is not a
kosher word!"

Time Calculations to the reclaiming of Jerusalem
------------------------------------------------
What happens when you apply the 2,483 years, 9 months and 21 days to the end of
the 3rd siege when Jerusalem was desolated?  This happened in August 15, 518 BC.
Following the same rules as above, you arrive at June 7, 1967 when the city of
Jerusalem was under the Star of David for the first time since the fall.  What a
coincidence!

The Bible contains 66 books written by 40 different authors over thousands of
years.  As time goes by we discover more that every detail, every number, every
placement, every subtlety of the text is there by supernatural engineering.
*ALL* Scripture is given by inspiration and is profitable for doctrine, for
reproof, and correction.  We haven't begun to discover the detail, the power,
and the majesty of God's handiwork.

Re: .28 Mike

>If you add the 1960 years to
>the threshold of 32 AD, it would imply that the rapture could happen any time
>after 1992.  Interesting speculation...

Since the rapture hasn't happened yet, if it happens at all it will happen
after 1992.  Amazing! :-)

>The Bible contains 66 books written by 40 different authors over thousands of
>years.  As time goes by we discover more that every detail, every number, every
>placement, every subtlety of the text is there by supernatural engineering.

The people studying the Bible to match biblical prophesies with present day
events have to go through so many contortions (360 day prophetic years,
arbitrarily subtracting 111 years, etc.) that it seems to me that they
could "prove" just about anything.  I guess it's a matter of perspective,
I guess.

When they start making predictions before the fact instead of matching
Bible verses to events after the fact then maybe I'll be impressed.

				-- Bob

>The people studying the Bible to match biblical prophesies with present day
>events have to go through so many contortions (360 day prophetic years,
>arbitrarily subtracting 111 years, etc.) that it seems to me that they
>could "prove" just about anything.  I guess it's a matter of perspective,
>I guess.
    
    360 day years is what was used then - the lunar calendar.

>When they start making predictions before the fact instead of matching
>Bible verses to events after the fact then maybe I'll be impressed.
    
    "And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do
     it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the 
     testimony of Jesus: worship God: FOR THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS IS THE 
    SPIRIT OF PROPHECY." - Revelation 19:10  
    
    try the "Magog" article on for size.  There are over 400 prophecies
    in the Bible that have already been fulfilled.  Of course, you would
    have to read and study the Bible to know which ones.
    
    Mike

    Actually Paul is very clear that one should not try to predict the end
    time.  It would come like a thief in the night.  Jesus as recorded in
    the Gospels believed it would be before the death of all the disciples. 
    Paul's letters assume the end time is immenent.  It is amazing how
    people who believe the Bible is 100% accurate are still trying to
    calculate end time based on it.  Perhaps modern prophets feel they know
    more than Jesus, as recorded by Matthew, Mark, and Luke, and more than
    Paul.
    
    Patricia

>    Actually Paul is very clear that one should not try to predict the end
>    time.  It would come like a thief in the night.  Jesus as recorded in
    
    Who's predicting?  Predictions insinuate a specific date, implied or
    otherwise.  Like the 88 reasons why Christ would return in 1988.  The
    information provided is a far cry from that.  
    
    What passage does Paul say not to watch for fulfillment of eschatological 
    events?  He said Christ would come as a thief in the night, but he also 
    warned us to be ready (don't be caught asleep) for it.  How will we be
    ready if we're not paying attention to the signs?  Christ condemned
    Jerusalem to destruction (which happened in 70 AD) for the Jews
    forgetting about Daniel 9:24-27.  Check out Luke 19:41-44!  They didn't
    realize that it was "this their day" for the arrival of Messiah!
    
>    the Gospels believed it would be before the death of all the disciples. 
    
    Simply not true.  Jesus told the signs to look for Himself.  The
    illustration of the fig tree is a powerful one (Luke 21:25-36).  By that 
    we can know the "season" but we clearly will not know the "hour."
    
>    Paul's letters assume the end time is immenent.  It is amazing how
    
    Incorrect again.  The Thessalonians thought that because they believed
    some of the false teachers stating that the Day of Wrath was near. 
    That is why Paul wrote II Thessalonians.  The key is the first few
    verses of chapter 2 where Paul soothes their fears and tells them some
    specific conditions that will precede Jacob's Trouble.
    
>    people who believe the Bible is 100% accurate are still trying to
>    calculate end time based on it.  Perhaps modern prophets feel they know
>    more than Jesus, as recorded by Matthew, Mark, and Luke, and more than
>    Paul.
    
    In Daniel 12, God tells us that knowledge will increase in the last
    days.  There is more than enough info and clues for us to piece the
    information together to know the "season."  The info provided is
    exactly that and nothing more.  The bottomline is that it's closer than
    you think.
    
    Mike

    All we now know is that in spite of what Paul said and what Jesus is
    quoted as saying, the end time was not in Biblical time and will be
    some time later than June 7, 1994.  From that perspective we can be
    more accurate than the Bible.
    
    By the way, most scholars believe 11 Thessoloneans is Pseudonymous. 
    Paul did not write it at all.
    
    
    Patricia
    

    By the way, should not we live our lifes according to our Faith
    regardless of when or whether we expect a cosmic end time?  
    
                                  Patricia

>    By the way, most scholars believe 11 Thessoloneans is Pseudonymous. 
>    Paul did not write it at all.
    
    
 
  Here we go with that "most scholars" stuff again.



 I have a tape of a message by an evangelist who tells a true story of
 a mayor in a town in Indiana who's house was broken into and his wife
 killed and he himself mortally wounded (he died several weeks later).
 He and his wife were sleeping and this man broke into the house, walked in
 and shot her in the head as she slept, killing her instantly, then shot
 him.  

 The evangelist wondered that if someone could have spoken to that man what
 would he have said.."If only a dog had barked, a car backfired, a tire 
 squeeled...I might have heard it and woke up and prevented this tragedy..
 if only I had a warning"....

 How did the man come in?  Did he ring the doorbell?  Call first?  No, he
 came unnanounced, a thief in the night.  

 Jesus Christ is coming..could be today, could be tomorrow, could be 10 
 years from now..either way, He is coming again and it will be like a 
 thief in the night, in the twinkling of an eye..and we have the warning
 in the Word and the signs are here...


 Are you ready?  That's the question.



 Jim    

    Maybe you should've stated "most scholars in your church" because I've
    never heard of your claims in mainstream Christianity.
    
    As for not living by Faith, I think God's Word contradicts you on that,
    and that's good enough for me.
    
    Mike

    Actually, most scholars in my church are not studying the Bible.
    
    It is mainstream Christian Scholars that include 2 Thess in the
    disputed letters along with Coloseans, Ephesians, 1&2 Timothy, and
    Titus.
    
    The undisputed letters are Romans, 1 & 2 Corinthians, 1 Thessoloneans,
    Philipeans, and Philemon.

        <<< LGP30::DKA300:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN-PERSPECTIVE.NOTE;2 >>>
                 -< Discussions from a Christian Perspective >-
================================================================================
Note 890.0     The undisputed letters of Paul & assorted ratholes    279 replies
CSC32::J_CHRISTIE "Pacifist Hellcat"                 13 lines  30-MAR-1994 15:01
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The (largely or generally) undisputed letters of the historical Paul:

	Romans
	I Corinthians
	II Corinthians
	Galatians
	Philippians
	I Thessalonians
	Philemon

Shalom,
Richard

    The "news" is not all that new.  Could it be you or your denomination
    have been looking the other way?  Any public library should have such
    information.  Many of these materials are written by clergy and scholars
    in the United Methodist, Episcopal, other quite mainline churches.
    
    Since you've already decided it's a riot, I really don't anticipate you
    probing very deeply into the matter.  But know that it's widely
    available.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

   Perhaps you've probed deeply into the "other side" of the matter as
   well, Richard?


   Jim

    I accept that there are letters of supposed Pauline authorship
    which are actually written by ancient "ghost writers."  I refuse
    to remain ignorant about such things.  I believe the truth is more
    important than a neatly coherent falsehood.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    Studying the letters in their historic context adds much insight into
    our knowledge of the Bible.  Failing to recognize the true historic
    context of the letters to the best that that context can be understood
    means that we miss much that is in the letters.
    
    Understanding that Ephesians, Collesians, 2 Thesaloneans were written
    probably a generation after Paul allow us to follow the development of
    Christianity and the interpretation and evolution of Pauline thought.
    
    Understanding that Timothy and Titus are written even latter allows us
    to trace the beginning of the institutionalization of Christianity.
    
    I agree with Richard, that to miss this is to grasp for neatly
    cohoerent falsehood rather than truth.
    
    Patricia
    

    Mike set this up to be posted in the event the rapture took place
    today.  He sends his love and is having a great time.  He wishes
    all of you were here!
    
    BTW - the Pauline letters rathole is sidestepping the fact that we are
    to watch and be prepared for Christ's return, just as Jesus said so
    Himself.
    
    {posted by the ENOTES batch-mode Notes tool}