Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    Ruth,
    
    I like the affirmations.  Thank you for sharing them.
    
    
                             Patricia

    Yes, there is magic and love all around.  It has become so
    common place that we don't notice it.

    I believe this is where God is to be found, right where you're
    looking.  All we have to do is stop looking and start seeing.

    It's closer than your breath.

    Tom

I have to confess I don't always have the presence of mind and heart to
acknowledge the subtle miracles taking place around me.  It's hard to
compete with the contrived, more spectacular things we see through film
and television entertainment.

I did notice last night how absolutely wonderful the sensation was of
having an icy popsicle in my mouth on a hot summer's day.  It was a
sensation even Spielberg couldn't match.

Richard

Something really nice happened yesterday after I did my "Miracles all
around me" affirmation.

I had been wanting a CD player for my truck so I could listen to music
while I'm on the road (vacation) next week.  But they cost big bucks--so I
wasn't planning on buying one.  I do have a portable CD player that I
listen to at work though--but it just has a headphone jack.

On a "whim" I stopped at an audio store and explained all this to the guy
behind the counter.  And he smiled and said that there was an easy
solution.  Turns out there's this little adapter that looks like an audio
cassette that goes into the cassette player.  It has a wire that plugs
right into the headphone jack of the CD player and voila! you can listen to
your CDs through the car speakers!!!

Well, ok, yes, there are probably some of you who already knew about this
device and you may be thinking...so what's so miraculous about it?  The
miracle is that *I* didn't know about the device and it only came into my
awareness after I had been doing this affirmation!

'Course I still think that CD players are pretty miraculous too.

Ruth

 We had some missionaries visit our church last week.  Our Pastor felt led
 and the leadership agreed to give them a check for $300.  This morning
 the Pastor read a note from them thanking us for the money.  "what you don't
 know, the note said, was that we had car trouble last week, and we hadn't
 enough money for the repair bill, so we trusted God to cover it.  The 
 bill for the repairs?  $300."






Jim

re: .5

I debated for a while as to whether or not I should enter this, but I am truly
curious, so here goes... (Moderators, please feel free to move this)

This is to all readers, not just the poster, as I really am not trying to put
anyone on the spot. 

Do you regard this (the $300) as a minor miracle? Or directed by God? Or a 
fortunate coincidence? Or unfortunate the car broke down? Or what?

Steve

re Note 719.6 by TINCUP::BITTROLFF:

> Do you regard this (the $300) as a minor miracle? Or directed by God? Or a 
> fortunate coincidence? Or unfortunate the car broke down? Or what?
  
        I don't know -- without an incredibly persuasive "sign", how
        could one tell the difference between a miracle and a
        coincidence?

        On the other hand, I believe that all good things ultimately
        come from God.  Which is more important, that it be a miracle
        or that it be from God?

        Bob

    "Syncroniciity" - those weird, unpreddictable things that happen in
    life where God seems to be revealing some sort of connection - for us
    to use to discern meaning, quality, partnership with the Divine One. 
    Things that reveal something that one finds hard to put finger on yet
    we feel a warm and fuzzy connection.

RE:        <<< Note 719.6 by TINCUP::BITTROLFF "Theologically Impaired" >>>
                                 -< Miracle? >-


.Do you regard this (the $300) as a minor miracle? Or directed by God? Or a 
.fortunate coincidence? Or unfortunate the car broke down? Or what?


 Perhaps miracle is overstating it a bit.  I consider it answered prayer. A
 need was placed before God by people who trusted in His ability to provide.
 And the prayer was answered by God, using our church who had no idea of the
 need, only a feeling of being led by God to provide the money.

 I heard of a similar occurance last night from one of our church family.  
 While I didn't catch all the details, it involved a family being short $100
 to cover a medical bill, and a check for $100 showing up in the mail from
 an unexpected source.


 Coincidence?  I'm not surprised that some would think that.  But I don't
 think so..miraculous?  To me, yes..nevertheless, answered prayer for sure.




Jim

    > I heard of a similar occurance last night from one of our church family.  
> While I didn't catch all the details, it involved a family being short $100
> to cover a medical bill, and a check for $100 showing up in the mail from
> an unexpected source.

    Once upon a time I had a cousin who was a struggling grad student and I
    actually had money left at the end of the bills. One day I felt the
    urge to send him some of the money. I found out some time later that is
    was just the right amount of money to help him out of a financial jam.
    There was no communication between us about this. Some would write it
    off to coincidence, some to ESP, I'm not sure what it was but I do
    believe that God communicates with people and that if we let Him He can
    use us to help others. I think that's pretty miraculous.

    			Alfred

    I believe in miracles.  Then idea of synchronicity is my definition of
    miracles too.  Scott Peck talks about that quite a bit in his book "The
    Road Less Travelled"  I also believe that tons of miracles are out
    there for us to participate in and part of the joy and passion of
    living is to be attuned to those miracles and take advantage of them. 
    It is miraculous that the money was offered and the need was acute at
    the same time regardless of what was the inspiration for the timing of
    the two.
    
    Patricia

A couple of weeks ago I got a check from my car insurance company for $102.50.
Not sure why, perhaps I'd overpaid them.

A couple of days ago I got a bill from the same company for $100.79.
I got a new car a couple of months ago and the rates have gone up.

Miracle, or just bad record keeping?

.-)

Jim

Actually, it sounds like the car had already been fixed, so the mechanic was the 
recipient of the (insert favorite explanation here) :^)

Seriously, I too have received money just in the nick of time to cover expenses,
and I can guarantee nobody was praying for it. On the other hand, I have lost
money at bad times and had problems because of it. I can't help but think that
for each of the times when money was received when needed there are other times
when money was prayed for, for equally good (or better) causes, and not received.


Steve

re: .12 Sounds like a computer program to me! :^)

    Steve,

    re: .13

    My intent when I started this whole conversation was to point out how
    many wonderful things/people/events/stuff are just sitting there--and I
    don't see them because my mind is preoccupied with "shoulds" and fixed
    ideas.

    So my affirmation to remind myself to see the miracles all around me is
    just to help me be aware of the goodness and beauty all around me.

    Miracles?  I'm sure there are lots of highly complex technical
    definitions that have been written by the theologically-minded.  But,
    my definition is real simple:

    A miracle (to me) is anything that happens that helps me to become more
    aware of my connection to my Source.

    Eyes open, warp-speed ahead...

    Ruth

    Ruth,
    
    I love your definition of miracles.  It certainly works for me.
    
    
    Patricia

    Hi,

    Remember the miracle that Jesus performed with the loaves
    of bread and the two fish?  I believe they put this food
    into 12 baskets and when the people were finished passing
    them around there was more food than the 12 baskets could hold?

    I recently heard a different interpretation of this.  Perhaps
    Jesus didn't alter the laws of physics multiplying the food.

    A different theory goes that when the people heard that
    Jesus was near, just before they left their houses many
    grabbed some food to take along.  As time went on they
    got hungry but didn't want to take their food out because
    they didn't want to share it.  But when they saw that
    Jesus was sharing the little food he had with the 5000
    *men* (women didn't count in those days) when the baskets
    came around many didn't take food out but put food in.

    Ya know?  Opening people's hearts may be a much greater
    miracle than causing food to materialize.

    Tom

  
 Rrright..

>    Remember the miracle that Jesus performed with the loaves
>    of bread and the two fish?  I believe they put this food
>    into 12 baskets and when the people were finished passing
>    them around there was more food than the 12 baskets could hold?
    
    5 loaves and 2 fish.  There were more than 12 baskets left over
    after everyone ate until they were full.

|    A different theory goes that when the people heard that
|    Jesus was near, just before they left their houses many
|    grabbed some food to take along.  As time went on they
|    got hungry but didn't want to take their food out because
|    they didn't want to share it.  But when they saw that
    
    Read the next chapter.  If this were true, why would the crowd of
    people continue following Christ to get more free food?  They saw an
    amazing miracle, yet were more interested in a free meal than His
    teaching.
    
|    Jesus was sharing the little food he had with the 5000
|    *men* (women didn't count in those days) when the baskets
|    came around many didn't take food out but put food in.
    
    but since we count women today, it is easy to convervatively estimate 
    that the crowd was 15,000+.

|    Ya know?  Opening people's hearts may be a much greater
|    miracle than causing food to materialize.

    Tom, sounds a the rationalizations of someone that is desparate.
    If you read John 6 and 2 Kings 4:43, the significance of this miracle
    brings new light that may interest you.  Elisha performed 7 great
    miracles that parallels Christ's ministry.  This was an obvious sign to
    the Jews of Jesus day that this was no ordinary man, but a prophet at
    least as significant as the great Elisha.
    
    Mike

    Yup.  I'll go look that up.

    But, physical or spiritual miracle, it still serves to inspire.

>    but since we count women today, it is easy to convervatively estimate 
>    that the crowd was 15,000+.

    Yup.  That was pointed out during the sermon.

>    Tom, sounds a the rationalizations of someone that is desparate.

    I have no need to rationalize this.  Magic is very real
    and I have no doubt that Jesus was capable of it.  (I
    stay away, however.  I leave that stuff to God.)  I must,
    however, ask  you not to belittle the magic of the heart.

    I am not threatened by either scenario.  Both show great power,
    and compassion.

    Tom

|    I have no need to rationalize this.  Magic is very real
|    and I have no doubt that Jesus was capable of it.  (I
|    stay away, however.  I leave that stuff to God.)  I must,
    
    When you are God, as Jesus is, magic has very little to do with it.

>    When you are God, as Jesus is, magic has very little to do with it.

Could you tell me what you mean by that, please?

Tom

    Just what I said.  Jesus is God.  What might look like magic to us is
    just Him making His will known.

    Just picking nits here... when Jesus performed miracles He knew
    that what He was doing something extraordinary.  It may have come
    naturally to Him, but He knew others couldn't.
    
    Tom

re Note 719.21 by THOLIN::TBAKER:

> >    When you are God, as Jesus is, magic has very little to do with it.
> 
> Could you tell me what you mean by that, please?
  
        You hit a sore spot, Tom.  To many Christians, "magic" (other
        than the purely sleight-of-hand kind) is associated with the
        occult, with demonic activity.  If you think of magic in such
        terms, then by definition what Jesus is doing just can't be
        called "magic".

        Bob

    Hi Bob,

    Jesus did a lot of things that the rest of  us "shouldn't try at
    home."  Magic, the manipulation of natural elements through super
    natural methods, I believe, is well within the capabilities of
    someone as advanced as Jesus.  He commanded the magic, it didn't
    control Him.  It was a tool to be called upon when appropriate.

    But to prove and teach many of His points, Jesus didn't have to
    rely on magic.  He knew what He was doing.
    
    Is it appropriate to practice magic?  I don't know.  I just know
    that it is inappropriate for *me* to practice magic, and that's
    all I really need to know about the subject.

    Tom

>    Jesus did a lot of things that the rest of  us "shouldn't try at
>    home."  
    
    Even if you had a "god complex" why would you want to die on a cross
    for the sins of the world?  We couldn't do most of what He did.  The
    things we can do, we cannot do without Him.  Anyway you look at it, 
    Jesus Christ is the very essence of living a Christian life.
    
    Mike

    Tom,
    
    Re .25
    
    
    Why?
    
    
    Patricia

>    Why?

    Why no magic for me?

    It's a very big complication.  There are many many rules you
    need to follow and not all of them are well understood or 
    laid out.  For everything that you do the universe then has
    to compensate by balancing itself out.  What the secondary
    outcome is isn't always certain - or precise.  It can
    "blow up in your face", even literally.

    For once, thank God, I'm not speaking from experience.  
    This is just what I've heard and read.

    It's sort of like playing with explosives without a good
    manual.  Sure, it's interesting, and perhaps fun and you
    can do a lot of good (and evil) with it, but the danger
    is more than I can to take on.  The power can be impossibly
    seductive.  If I got to be good I could start to play god.

    Do you see the little (little?!?) warning signs flashing?

    Besides, I have other things to do with my life.

    Magic can also become a crutch, an addiction.  With my own
    lust, greed, sloth and what-have-you, I don't really need
    any more hangups or distractions. :*)

    Tom

    tom,
    
    We pagans have a saying, but I think it is close to a chrsitian saying
    as well.
    
    "majick is NOT user friendly."
    
    Otherwise known as "Be careful what you pray for, you might just get
    it."
    
    meg

    Tom,
    
    for the most part I agree with your answer.
    
    For me there is also a normal everyday kind of magic.  It has to do
    with positive thoughts and making known to the Universe that which we
    want or desire.  It is my belief that we really can create our own
    destinies.
    
                            Patricia

>    For me there is also a normal everyday kind of magic.  It has to do
>    with positive thoughts and making known to the Universe that which we
>    want or desire.  It is my belief that we really can create our own
>    destinies.

Oh, sure. (yes)

There's magic and then there's magic.  You let the powers that
be know what you want/need and they fit you into their schedule
if they see fit.  THEY (or S/He) determines the time and means.

Adjusting your own attitude doesn't need to include incantations
on conjuring.

Tom

    There's a health & wealth/name it & claim it movement within
    Christiandom that believes along the lines of the last few replies. 
    Personally, I don't believe scripture lends support to God being your
    Santa Claus.  Far too many great people of the Bible suffered and died
    in their service to God.  Scripture presents that view that it isn't
    always God's will to heal.  As Paul wrote, I don't believe you can know
    Christ in every sense of the word without experiencing suffering.
    
    Mike

    No one said that the magic would always work.

    But, it doesn't hurt to fix your state of mind so that
    if God *does* want you to prosper, you will.

    God does listen to prayer, doesn't She?

    Tom

    Mike.
    
    "Ask and you shall receive!"
    

    Re: -2
    
    Tom, I don't know her.
    
    Re: -1
    
    Context, Patricia, context!

>    Tom, I don't know her.

    Well, I don't know Him as well as I'd like but through
    prayer, reading and patience you will hopefully get
    to know Him too.