Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    That is a very interesting question.  Just today I had been thinking of
    starting a topic on the subject.

    It is an interesting question of whether there is any difference
    between being "born into" a denomination, and choosing one.  In a way,
    I think it can be similar to living in the same region all your life,
    versus picking up and moving to a new location (something I know a lot
    about).  A lot of factors, such as being comfortable with what one
    knows, and a sense of belonging and loyalty, that enter into it.  The
    region one is born in, or the denomination one is born in, is what one
    knows and it may take a compelling reason to change locations or
    denominations.  I like the idea of having chosen my own denomination,
    though; it was like I took charge and defined something about my own
    life.  I would say also, though, that the religion of your youth is
    always a part of you in a sense, and that you can't choose.

    My religious odyssey is a rather long one, which I have discussed
    elsewhere in this notes file.  The answer in my case is no, I don't
    belong to the same denomination I was brought up in.

    Actually, the story in my family is mostly one of changing denominations
    at least once in a person's life.  My mother is the exception; she is
    still in the same Protestant denomination she was raised in.  My father
    was raised a Catholic, but joined my mother's church when he married
    her.  My oldest brother, raised in that Protestant church, became a
    Catholic when he married his Catholic wife.  My other brother has
    switched denominations several times, as far as I knew; I thought he
    was a Methodist, but the last I heard he was not, so I'm not sure.  And
    I am a Quaker.

    -- Mike

    Raised in the Congregational Church, now called the United Church of
    Christ.  (Hi, Ron Francey!  Hi, Marc H.! :-})
    
    I attended a Presbyterian Church for a few years as a teen.
    
    As an adult, I joined a Friends Meeting (Quaker), then became a
    United Methodist, and I'm presently a member of an MCC (Metropolitan
    Community Church).
    
    Richard
    

Baptized as an infant at Old Christ Church in Shrewsbury, New Jersey.
Raised, catechized, and confirmed at St. Patrick's in Falls Church,
Virginia, where I was for many years a member of the junior choir.
Spent 7/8/9th grade at St. Stephen's Episcopal College Preparatory
School in Alexandria, Virginia.

As an Army brat, for many years my "parishes" were military Episcopal
communities; served or sang in the choir in U.S. Army Episcopal chapels
in Germany and Alabama.

During seven years at Georgia Tech in Atlanta, was a parishioner and
acolyte at The Church of Our Saviour.

Married Pam at The Church of the Nativity in Huntsville, Alabama.

Currently a parishioner at The Church of the Advent in Boston.  Member
of the National Organization of Episcopalians for Life and of the
Episcopal Synod of America (but will not remain a member of ESA should
it become schismatic).  Hope for reconciliation between Rome, Canterbury,
and Constantinople and eventually all of Christianity so Our Lord's High
Priestly Prayer that we may all be one even as He and the Father are One
and that the world may thereby believe the Catholic Faith will be fulfilled.

Will proclaim forever the central doctrine of Christianity: "Jesus is
Almighty God", the central fact that "Christ our Lord is Risen in the
Flesh", and await His coming again in Glory.

 As a child I attended, along with my parents, the Methodist Church.  I attended
 Sunday school, etc. I don't have a lot of recollection about the church or
 what I was taught, though I suppose a belief in God has always been with me.
 My mother died when I was 8, and my Dad (or neighbors) would drive me to church
 while she was ill.  Eventually we quit going.


 My Dad eventually remarried and my step mother would take us to an Episcopal
 Church.  I never really cared for the formality and I don't recall ever hearing
 that I needed Christ in my life, or that I could have a personal relationship
 with Him.  But I went til the time I was 16 or 17 (I was baptised [sprinkled]
 when I was 15).  During my later teen years I would go occasionally.


 After I had been married for a few years my wife and I both reached the con-
 clusion that we were sinners and accepted Christ in our lives while attending
a non-denominational church called the Christian Church.  We enjoyed it and 
when we moved from Colorado to Arizona attended the Christian Church as well,
and continued to do so when we returned to Colorado.  Upon moving to New England
we found there weren't too many Christian churchs, though we did find one near
to home eventually and attended for a while, but crisis in our lives, and at
the church, pushed us away..we attended a Bible church for a while, but ultimate
ly fell away and eventually divorced.


Upon recommitting my life to Christ, I returned to the Christian church but 
found some scritpural difficulties and through an interesting chain of events
eventually determined that God wanted me in an independant, fundamental Baptist
Church, despite the fact that I said I would *never* attend one, and I remain
there, convinced that this is where I belong.




Jim

    Well .. I don't attend any church right now (though I've seriously
    considered it) but I'm still going to reply.

    I was brought up 1/3 Methodist, 1/3 Baptist and 1/3 Assembly of God. 
    Yeah, yeah, I'm sure that some of you will say "so *that's* why you are
    so screwed up, Beeler".  Nonetheless ... were I to return to any
    organized faith today it would most assuredly  not be Baptist, most
    assuredly NOT be Assembly of God .. but most likely Methodist.

    Bubba

My parents were CMA missionaries when I was born.  My Dad died in an airplane
crash when I was three and when my mom remarried, my parents went out
as Plymouth Brethern missionaries.  As kids growing up we attended the
church that had the best Sunday School for our ages, so I attended a CMA
church through elementary school, and then a Southern Baptist church in
high school. I was baptized at the latter, so although I don't consider
myself a Southern Baptist I expect I'll be one in heaven. 8-)

In college I attended a PB assembly and a non-denominational congregational
church, College Church in Wheaton, IL.  When we moved to NE, I attended
at my wife's family's church for awhile, Village Bible Chapel in Framingham.
When we moved to Franklin, MA we attended the West Medway Community
Church, which at the time was a federated NACCC and ABC church. The latter
two denominations might be considered liberal by some although they do have
conservative churches in them.  When the church was considering leaving the
ABC we had someone in from the ABC to talk to us.  He stressed that local
churches had complete autonomy and that the denomination didn't have
absolutes in terms of what could be teached or not teached.  When asked
what the denomination would do if a pastor was teaching that Christ wasn't
divine, or that Jesus encouraged people to have sex with animals, he indicated
that it would be between the congregation and the pastor.
When asked what the denomination would do if a pastor was teaching that
blacks weren't humans, he said that the deonomination would step right in
and make sure that the right stuff was taught. What it meant was that the
denomination did have absolutes after all.  I believe that the West Medway
church as since left both denominations.

Since we moved to NH we've attended Bethany Covenant Church in Bedford, NH.

Paul

-- 
---
Paul		[email protected]
Gordon		[email protected]
Loptson		databs::ferwerda
Ferwerda	Tel (603) 884 1317



			
[posted by Notes-News gateway]

    re: .2
    
    "Hi" back to you Richard!  
    
    I was unchurched until my mom died when I was eight (no bad reflection
    on her meant) and until shortly thereafter I move to Lexington, MA to
    live with my aunt and uncle who belonged to a congregational church,
    later to become a member church of the UCC.
    
    During the middle years of seminary I came really close to switching to
    ABC (American Baptist) partly out of neccessity as the NH UCC voted me
    unfit for ordained ministry, a long story with lots of holes and gaps
    in it, and partly because I had a real problem with "infant Baptism",
    actually the problem was with my understanding of it rather than that
    practiced by the UCC.
    
    Now my wife and I are moving to Dallas real soon and we may find it
    neccessary to change denomiations in order to seek standing as ordained 
    pastors.  The Deciples of Christ or the ABC are two possible
    denominations for us.  
    
    We actually find ourselves in a bit of a spot these days due to the
    relo and the new areas lack of UCC churches seeking a pastor.
    
    We are asking ourselves what it all means.  We are sure God has
    something in store for us and we're trying to listen and to feel for
    directions from the Divine One.
    
    	Shalom,
    
    	Ron
    

I grew up in the United Methodist Church in which I was
active until I was 25.

Unfortunately, I became at Christian at the age of 18 at
college almost in spite of my church upbringing, i.e. I
didn't really understand the gospel.  This has soured me
some on the UMC although I enjoy visiting my parent's
church when I go back home.

Since then I've joined a very large inter-denominational church,
a very small inter-denominational church, a 4C's church and
now a Nazarene church.  The reason for these changes was
either due to moving or training (supervised ministry during
seminary).  

As a courtesy to my mother (whose father was a Methodist
minister), we visited a Methodist church when we moved to
Nashua.  The people are very friendly and there were Christians
there that I'm sure we'd enjoy knowing.  However, the typical
Methodist church in the Northeast (of which this appears to
be one) is just too removed from being a Bible-based church
for my wife and me to get good teaching and preaching.  We
get great worship, very good preaching and adult Sunday School 
classes that run the gamut (from very good to poor) as well
as a very good children's program at our current church.  We
have an opportunity to plug in and give of our gifts and
talents where we now are and we are quite pleased where God
has led us.

Most importantly, we play softball every Friday night during
the spring/summer (first game tonight).  :-)

Collis

RE:    <<< Note 668.8 by TLE::COLLIS::JACKSON "Roll away with a half sashay" >>>


>Most importantly, we play softball every Friday night during
>the spring/summer (first game tonight).  :-)


  Hah!  My first game (in 15 years) is tomorrow :-)



 Jim

    Ok, here goes.
    
    Dad was a Baptist evangelist and pastored several small churches here
    and there until I was ten years old, when he accepted the pastorship of
    a small Baptist church, which was torn by much internal conflict.

    I accepted Jesus as my personal savior when I was seven years old, and
    was baptized in a cold river on a windy March Sunday by my Father and
    my Sunday School superintendent while the people sang "Shall We Gather
    at the River".  Every night I went to bed with a little Bible (that I
    had earned at age 7 for reciting all the books in the old and new
    testaments in front of the entire congregation) under my pillow.  It
    kept me safe from The Devil.

    My family went to church all morning on Sundays, Sunday evenings,
    Wednesday night prayer meeting, and once a month the Saturday night
    Song Fest.  In addition, I attended the Tuesday night youth meetings
    when I turned ten.

    I began playing piano in a gospel music group when I was 12, and toured
    around the Midwest witnessing and evangelizing.  As a result I was
    exposed to a bunch of different angles on Christianity, and I started
    formulating the idea that there were many core similarities that we
    could all agree upon.  I also found the Pentecostals and the
    Charismatics when I was 13.

    They really appealed to me.  I saw them singing and dancing and having
    these incredible experiences involving the Holy Spirit, and I thought
    to myself...Yes!  This is it.  So I received the Baptism of the Holy
    Spirit when I was 14 and began attending a charismatic church on
    Wednesday nights.

    My Dad wasn't very happy about it.  Traditional Baptists don't look
    kindly on all that "gifts of the Spirit" stuff, and besides, he thought
    I was being disloyal by diverting my energies away from his church. 

    But I felt that I needed the spirituality of the charismatic church and
    became actively involved, eventually filling the role of piano player
    for the services.  I became involved with Women's Aglow also, playing
    piano every now and then and going to the Saturday morning breakfasts.

    And I read.  I read and read.  I used to read my Bible (and I had 'em
    all; Thompson Chain, Dakes, Scoffield, plus oodles of different
    translations) every day.  I spent my extra money at the Christian
    bookstore, reading whatever hit the stands.

    I took my Bible to school every day, and stood as a witness for the
    good news to the other students who would listen.  Many of our
    conversations sound much like this notes conference, except I sounded
    more like Collis then.   :^)

    I fasted.  I prayed.  I earnestly turned my life over to God to be made
    into whatever pleased Him.  But I also _thought_.  Some things just
    never made sense, and I knew that Truth has to at some level _work_. 

    As I became more and more activist in my church and intense in my
    prayer, my heart became heavier and heavier.  I told people "Jesus will
    fill the empty space within you" and mine became bigger and bigger.  I
    was sad all the time and didn't know why.

    By the time I was 16, I had lost my will to live.  I woke up in the
    mornings and cried because I had to live another day.  I begged God to
    just take me, because I couldn't stand this constant depression.  I
    constantly thought about ending my life.  This lasted all year.

    The elders in the church prayed with me.  My parents were bewildered. 
    My school counselor had long talks with me.  No one understood why. 
    After all here's this beautiful, intelligent, talented, sweet, young
    woman, filled with the Spirit of God, who does not want to live
    anymore.

    I finally decided that no matter how awful I felt, that I was too young
    and too unknowledgeable to kill myself at that time.  So I decided that I
    would give it five years.  And in those five years I would try
    everything I could think of to restore my desire to live.  And if at
    the end of five years, I still hated my life, then I could revisit my
    thoughts on death.

    By the end of those five years, I was not involved in the Christian
    church at all.  I was busy going to engineering school and struggling
    with several health issues.  I was much happier being out of the
    church, but did not realize that I had to resolve the childhood hurts
    before I could truly ever leave it.  I still struggled with will to
    live issues.

    I have heard it said that the purpose of pain is to give us big ears.  
    Finally, when my health plummeted, and I was in much pain, I became
    willing.  And as always, when we unharden places in our heart, God
    enters and brings love and illumination to the darkness.  The
    illumination that He brought me was in the form of a book called "A
    Course in Miracles."

    I read it and it made so much sense at a core level, that I *knew* it
    was true. ('Spose that's called faith.)  It resonated with the Truth
    written upon my heart.  It redefined words from my childhood such as
    salvation and atonement such that they actually made sense for once. 
    There was no need to argue with it, or say "well I'll understand it
    someday, God works in mysterious ways."  It all made sense up front. 
    And I healed.  I returned to Christianity because of the Truth that
    book awakened within me.

    I healed.  I now love my life and treasure my days.  I see Christ in my
    brothers and sisters.  I see Divine Love present everywhere.  (Except
    when I'm driving and well, we're still working on that one.)
    
    I now attend the Science of Mind church here in Colorado Springs.  They
    are a warm, loving group of people open to all.  

    As someone said in another note, be careful when you ask God for
    something--you might just get it.
    
    

    Peace,

    Ruth

    Wow, Ruth, thanks for sharing that with us.
    
    -- Mike

Thanks, Ruth.

I, too, have spent time (mindlessly, of course :-) ), with A
Course in Miracles.  It does indeed redefine terms such that
there is truly very little correlation between it and
Biblical Christianity.

Collis

    
    I was raised in the Evangelical Free Church.  When I went to college
    I went to a Baptist church that was cross-denominational; both
    North American and Southern Baptist.  When I came back home I went
    again to the EFC, but eventually started to look around.  I know
    go to a S. Baptist church, although not your "traditional" image
    of what a SBC would be.  It's very contemporary.  My parents are
    still in the EFC, my younger brother is in Faith Alliance and works
    for CMA, and my older brother leans more towards Presbyterian
    when he attends.  Denomination has very little to do with anything 
    as far as we're concerned, as long as they are true to the gospel 
    of Jesus Christ.
    
    Hey Bubba...what town do you live in?  We have a visiting Evangelist
    from Texas in 2 weeks.  I'll ask him for a good church.  
    
    Jill

    Jill .. I currently live in Bakersfield, California .. but if there is
    a God I won't be here much longer.
    
    Bubba
    
    PS:  Yo, God, you listening?  Bubba wants to go home to Texas.  I'll be
    good in the future .. well .. reasonably good.  Fair enough?

Bakersfield has the distinction of being in the Episcopal Diocese of
San Joaquin, an oasis where the liberals have not been able to take
over the Church, a place where the Gospel is preached as it was in
apostolic times.  A place focused on God, and not on gun control.  A
place focused on Jesus, and not on Ghandi.  A place focused on the
power of the Holy Spirit, and not on "empowerment".  God bless Bishop
Schofield.

It's one of those places where an Episcopalian wouldn't really have to wonder
which parish to go to.  S/he'd be able to go to All Saints (3200 Gosford Rd)
and hear Fr. Little or Fr. Wright or to Saint Luke's (2671 Mt Vernon Ave)
and hear Fr. Burley or Fr. Woods or to Saint Paul's (2216 17th) and hear
Fr. Fosse, and s/he'd know that the historic Faith would be proclaimed and
that the sacraments would be rightly and duly celebrated.

/john

    I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church....Westwood, Ma. Pretty much
    a straight forward arrangement. The teaching was conducted by Nuns
    at a local school from Norwood Ma.
    
    I left home and went to UMASS in amherst Ma. While there in my sophmore
    year, I just stopped going to Mass one day. A person in the dorm had
    asked me "why are you going to church?" I didn't really know....so,
    I just quit. You might say, cold turkey.
    
    Later on, after I way married...I started to go back to church...don't
    really know why, except it just seemed right. Most likely, I was
    starting to grow up. My family started to grow, and reached its 
    present size of 5 children.
    
    After reaching the ripe age of 41, I changed my religon and my
    whole family over to the Congregational Church in our town of
    Grafton, Ma. If anyone is interested in *why* I changed, I would be
    happy to talk. Give me a call at my dtn (237-6751) to arrange a
    time. I have entered some notes in the past explaining my motives...
    not being a good typist...I'd rather talk.
    
    Marc H.

    I am wondering if there a distinction in outlook that goes along with
    belonging to the same church you grew up with versus choosing a church
    in your adulthood.
    
    -- Mike

    
    Bubba, I'll still asked the evangelist.  He gets around alot.
    But why don't you try one of the parishes that John recommends?
    I mean...it's not like he'll be sitting there next to ya!  ;^)
    
    Jill

.18> But why don't you try one of the parishes that John recommends?
.18> I mean...it's not like he'll be sitting there next to ya!  ;^)

Aw ... if I ever again set foot in a house of worship it will probably
be a Methodist church ...  somewhere way out in the country - a small
wood frame church with a tall steeple .. pump organ ... pot belly
stove for heating ... Cokesbury Hymnal .. etc.... That's what Bubba
be lookin' for.  I think that's where God is.  I don't think he
would cotton to all this glitz and glamour of the crystal cathedrals
and such.

Bubba

You've read Fr. Pettway's work; his parish was a small wood frame church in
Atlanta back when the Virginia-Highland neighborhood was a low-income area.  

St. Luke's out in Bakersfield reports under 100 members, so I doubt it would
be described as a crystal cathedral.  The others are 200-300 and 500-600.

/john

.20> You've read Fr. Pettway's work; his parish was a small wood frame church
.20> in Atlanta back when the Virginia-Highland neighborhood was a low-income
.20> area.  

No, I haven't read Pettway but that sounds precisely like what I would look
for!

.20> St. Luke's out in Bakersfield reports under 100 members, so I doubt it
.20> would be described as a crystal cathedral.

Thanks!  That's worth looking into!

Bubba

    To follow up on my question in .17, one thing I am curious about is if
    those who have remained with the same church all their lives believe
    that it is a coincidence that the denomination of their adulthood is
    the same denomination that their parents brought them up in; or, do
    they think that, had they been brought up in a different denomination,
    they would have chosen to migrate over to their current denomination
    anyway.
    
    -- Mike

    
    I think denomination is inconsequential most times, unless it's a
    cult.  I think God guides people to where He needs them if they are
    walking with Him.  At times I've chosen what church to go to, and
    at times I've felt God leading in where to go.