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Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

Title:Discussions from a Christian Perspective
Notice:Prostitutes and tax collectors welcome!
Moderator:CSC32::J_CHRISTIE
Created:Mon Sep 17 1990
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1362
Total number of notes:61362

621.0. "Diplomatic relations with the Vatican" by DEMING::VALENZA (From soup to notes.) Thu Mar 18 1993 12:49

    Should the United States have diplomatic relations with the Vatican?
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621.1DEMING::VALENZAFrom soup to notes.Thu Mar 18 1993 12:5085
    Church-state separationists decry Clinton sending envoy to Vatican

    By James L. Franklin, Globe Staff

    Souther Baptists and other church-state separationists reacted
    yesterday with a mixture of anger and resignation to the announcement
    that President Clinton will fill the position of US ambassador to the
    Vatican.

    One of the first statements came from Clinton's own denomination, who
    were disappointed that a Southern Baptist president had filled the job. 
    But others objected to the appointment as "an entanglement" of religion
    and government.

    An agency representing the nation's largest Protestant body, the
    Southern Baptist Convention, said that, in announcing he was naming
    Mayor Flynn to the post, Clinton had lost what may be "the last
    opportunity to reverse this terribly wrong policy."

    Richard D. Land, executive director of the denomination's Christian
    Life Commission, called the president's decision "a triumph of
    politics over principle," pointing to Clinton's past stand as a
    church-state separator.

    "Such a decision by any president is bad, but coming from a Baptist
    president it is even worse," Land said, arguing that Clinton "is
    seeking to curry favor with Roman Catholics who re justifiably outraged
    over his pro-abortion politics."

    The Southern Baptist official argued that opposition to diplomatic
    relations between Washington and the Vatican has nothing to do with
    anti-Catholicism, citing as evidence President Kennedy's rejection of
    the idea of naming a Vatican ambassador during his 1960 campaign.

    Land said his agency, which was first among the groups to ask Clinton
    to leave the Vatican post vacant, will testify against Flynn's
    appointment in hearings before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

    Although they did not publicly renew their long-held opposition to
    diplomatic relations with the Vatican since Clinton's election, the
    National Council of Churches yesterday called the appointment
    "inappropriate and unconstitutional."

    "The establishment clause of the First Amendment has long been
    interpreted to prohibit the government favoring one church over
    another, and this appointment would have the effect of giving one
    church preferential access to the federal government that other
    churches do not enjoy," said Carol Fouke, spokeswoman for the National
    Council.

    Americans United for Separation of Church and State objected that the
    maintenance of diplomatic relations between Washington and the Catholic
    hierarchy violates the First Amendment because it is an unnecessary
    entanglement of church and state.

    Barry W. Lynn, executive director of the group, also said the fact that
    Flynn is a Catholic--like the three ambassadors since President Reagan
    began full diplomatic relations in 1984--shows the US government has
    established a "de factor religious test for office."

    "Article Six of the Constitution forbids any religious test for public
    office," Lynn said.  "It's bad enough that the relationship is being
    continued; the problem is compounded when administration after
    administration chooses to select ambassadors from the same faith."

    William A. Wilson, a rich California rancher and real estate developer,
    was appointed the first ambassador by Reagan, a close friend.  Thomas
    P. Melady, former president of Sacred Heart University in Brideport,
    Conn.,, was ambassador to Burundi and Uganda before he was named to the
    Vatican post.  Frank Shakespeare, a former CBS television executive,
    had been head of the US Information Agency and ambassador to Portugal,
    when president Nixon appointed him to the Holy See.

    Americans United noted that Flynn had written to Clinton in January to
    support the idea of continuing diplomatic relations with the Vatican. 
    "It's clear Flynn was putting out a feeler, showing that he was
    interested in the job," said Joseph Conn, education director for
    Americans United.

    The Boston mayor is "another pro-life, fairly conservative Catholic,
    cut from the same pattern as the three ambassadors named by Reagan and
    Bush," Conn said.  "We would have been less alarmed if the president
    insisted on naming a Vatican ambassador, if he had appointed a woman or
    somebody who indicated to the American people that the job isn't
    reserved for conservative, white, male Catholics."
621.2Whats the Point?JUPITR::HILDEBRANTI'm the NRAThu Mar 18 1993 13:003
    Simple answer....no.
    
    Marc H.
621.3just goes to show how much anti Catholic bigotry remains in this countryCVG::THOMPSONRadical CentralistThu Mar 18 1993 14:1642
	Vatican City is an independent nation. Sure it has a religious person
	as head of state but so do lots of other countries that the US has
	diplomatic relations with. Is there an other country headed by a religious
	leader that we don't have relations with? Besides Iran? Shall we also
	cut out relations with countries whose ruler is the head a a religion?
	You know, like the United Kingdom. At least the Pope is elected.

>    "The establishment clause of the First Amendment has long been
>    interpreted to prohibit the government favoring one church over
>    another, and this appointment would have the effect of giving one
>    church preferential access to the federal government that other
>    churches do not enjoy," said Carol Fouke, spokeswoman for the National
>    Council.
	
	This arguement is baseless. The US has diplomatic relations with the
	Vatican because it is a state not because it is a religious institution.
	Clearly it's history for hundreds of years is that of a state as much
	as that of a religion. 


>    Barry W. Lynn, executive director of the group, also said the fact that
>    Flynn is a Catholic--like the three ambassadors since President Reagan
>    began full diplomatic relations in 1984--shows the US government has
>    established a "de factor religious test for office."

	Now we're getting real silly. Are there no posts that have been held
	by protestant ambassadors only since 1984? A reach like this makes one
	wonder if religious bigotry is involved.

>    Americans United for Separation of Church and State objected that the
>    maintenance of diplomatic relations between Washington and the Catholic
>    hierarchy violates the First Amendment because it is an unnecessary
>    entanglement of church and state.

	We've got relations with lots of countries who can benifit us less
	than the Vatican. The Vatican has served as a very useful intermediary
	in a number of cases over the years. And they have a great spy network
	that one hopes we can use from time to time. :-)

	Besides this, what does it hurt? 

			Alfred
621.4TLE::COLLIS::JACKSONRoll away with a half sashayThu Mar 18 1993 14:3111
I don't have a problem with it.

The constitutional arguements against it are far-fetched
in my opinion (which by no means indicates that a court
would not uphold them which I view more as a reflection
on the courts than on my reasoning :-) ).

Perhaps if I knew more I'd think it was the wrong thing
to do.

Collis
621.5BUSY::DKATZThe Tuna ZoneThu Mar 18 1993 14:377
    I don't really see it doing any harm.
    
    It was an envoy's position until 1984.  Does anybody know why Reagan
    elevated it to an embassaborship? (my cynical side says "campaign
    contributor wanted it")
    
    Daniel
621.6SDSVAX::SWEENEYPatrick Sweeney in New YorkThu Mar 18 1993 15:018
    The Vatican's role as a state made it important in the negotiations
    with the Communist government of Poland, the capture of Noriega in
    Panama, etc.
    
    If there was only symbolism in having diplomatic relations with the
    Vatican then there wouldn't be a problem with ignoring it, but it's to
    the mutual benefit of the United States and the Vatican to have
    diplomatic relations.
621.7JUPITR::HILDEBRANTI'm the NRAWed Mar 24 1993 15:443
    Both choices were wrong. Politics as usual.
    
    Marc H.
621.8Ambassador == pay offBUSY::DKATZElvis Has Left The BuildingWed Mar 24 1993 15:447
    Ambassador appointments are almost ALWAYS political pay-offs.  The full
    time embassy staff that is held over from administration to
    administration does the real work.  His/Her Excellency is most often a
    figure head who hosts banquets and gave a lot of money to the
    President's campaign.
    
    Daniel