Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

You left out the important continuation of the context.

  For Adam was formed first, then Eve.  And Adam was not
the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and
became a sinner...

You tell me.  Wass this written because of the immediate
cultural context or because of an overriding principle?
(assuming God was the author, of course)

(It is important as well to keep in mind that the fuller
context is instructions on worship.)

Collis

Note 594.1
>	                   -< You be the judge >-

Why, thank you, Collis.  I have come to something of a conclusion.

>You left out the important continuation of the context.

>  For Adam was formed first, then Eve.  And Adam was not
>the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and
>became a sinner...

Covered in another topic.  But certainly I would support reading *any*
verses referenced in this file in context.

>You tell me.  Was this written because of the immediate
>cultural context or because of an overriding principle?
>(assuming God was the author, of course)

Well, I am mostly curious about the inerrantist perspective.  And assuming
God was the author, was it not something to be practiced for all time?

>(It is important as well to keep in mind that the fuller
>context is instructions on worship.)

I realized that.  That's why I asked the questions I did in .0.

Richard

    Richard,
    
    I've that passage and one's similar to it with great curiosity..it was
    even the subject of a paper in college.
    
    What seems so odd to me is that in another letter of Paul, greetings
    are sent to Phoebe, who is a *deacon* in a church...are we meant to
    believe that she must be silent in her own church?
    
    I suppose this is where redaction criticism comes in handy.
    
    regards,
    
    Daniel

    
    
    
    > Is this scripture to be taken literally
    
    Yep.
    
    David

I'm curious, David.  Does your affirmation that a woman should be silent
indicate that you believe it is literally not right for:

	A woman to provide religious instruction to men?  (Teach Sunday
	School, read the Scripture lesson aloud during worship)

	A woman to preach?

	A woman to sing (in the choir, during hymns)?

	A woman to pastor a church?

Richard

Well, Richard, how do you interpret the Scripture?

I believe someone other than Paul the Apostle actually wrote the letters
to Timothy.  And since apostolic origin was a requirement for admittance
to the New Testament, the letters to Timothy probably should have been
omitted.

But since it's in there, I try to read Timothy for what it is: a letter of
caring, concern and instruction from one early church leader to another.

I don't believe that women should be required to be silent.

Richard

Re:  .7

Well, that's a start.  You've expressed an opinion about the
authorship, an opinion of why the letter was sent and then
your conclusion about the text.

I don't mean to be picky, but I think something is missing
if you meant this as a response to my request in .6 for
someone to exegete the text.

Collis

    You're right.  It's not an attempt at exegesis.
    
    Richard
    

Re:  .3
  
  >What seems so odd to me is that in another letter of Paul, greetings
  >are sent to Phoebe, who is a *deacon* in a church...are we meant to
  >believe that she must be silent in her own church?
    
No, but she should be the husband of just one wife (I Tim 3:12). 

Collis 

Anyone care to exegete the text before coming to a
conclusion?

Collis,

	Would you take a moment and, for the benefit of those unfamiliar
with the term, explain what "exegesis" is?  I might suggest posting it in
538 or starting a new note.

Richard

    
    
    
    Richard,
    
    
     Sorry I took so long to respond, i've been ill.
    
    > a woman to preach
    
      Should not.
    
    > provide religious instruction
    
      To their children.
    
    > sing aloud
    
      They better, cuz I sure cannot sing:-)
    
    
       In all honesty Richard I do not have the answers myself. I used to
    be a liberal christian, now I am a moderate.. I don't know where to
    draw the line accept to say that I think men should be the leaders.
    
    
    David

Joel 2:28  And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will �pour�
out my �spirit� upon all �flesh;� and your sons and your daughters
shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men
shall see visions:

Acts 2:16  But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
2:17  And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I
will �pour� out of my �Spirit� upon all �flesh:� and your sons and
your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see
visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

	To "prophesy," to me, includes a meaning to speak.  Certainly
here in these 2 passages the ability to prophesy includes women.

Peace,
Richard

I agree with you, Richard.  God does indeed pour out His Spirit
on women and they have (and do) indeed prophesy.

This raises several questions:

  Does this relate to the order of worship services?

  If it does, was Paul addressing the issue of prophesy in
    church?  Did he address it unintentionally, or was this
    just not part of what he was addressing?  (i.e. Paul may
    have been addressing the issue of women disrupting the
    service and may have not been addressing the issue of
    "orderly" prophecy)  Or was he?

Collis

  

Note 594.13
    
>       I used to
>    be a liberal christian, now I am a moderate.. 

A curiosity, David.  I understand Collis has had a similar experience,
while Mike Valenza experienced just the reverse.

A the risk of completely derailing this topic, would you mind sharing what
influenced your direction?

Richard

    
    
    -1
    
    
      An awakening of manhood.
    
    
    David

    .17 David,
    
    	Heh?  Forgive my density.  But, how so?  (I'll understand if you'd
    rather not discuss it)
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    

    
    
    Richard,
    
     
     I don't know how to explain it. I would discuss anything with you, you
    are my friend. I just know that I feel a voice inside calling me back
    and it seems to be a fatherly figure calling..
    
    David