Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    RE: .0
    
    Absolutely correct! Our minister resigned last year due to marital
    infidelity......his choice...but...it sure seemed like the right thing
    to do.
    
    Why? Because, the expectations are higher for the clergy. Another
    question...could the clergy be effective & lead a less than perfect
    life? Yes again.
    
    Marc H.

Of course we place higher expectations on those in
leadership (clergy amongst others) - and rightfully
so.  It is not that they are called to a higher
standard (we are all called to the same standard of
perfection), but rather that those who are leaders
are more strictly accountable for the influence of
their actions.  (Scripture reference here which I
don't have off the top of my head.)

Sexual sin is sin, like any sin, and yet it has more
grievious conesequences since it is a sin against the
body as well as against God.  Because of the nature
of the sin (and because the sex drive is so strong
and it is so important to control it), the consequences
and ramifications of sexual sin are more severe than
most other sins - as it should be.

We don't have a right to expect clergy to be perfect;
but we do have a right to expect them to avoid gross
sins and hold them specially accountable when they do
not.  Those who cannot live by such standards should
*NOT*, repeat *NOT* aspire to or accept these leadership
positions, all other qualifications aside - which does
not mean that those who fall into these sins should never
be restored. (I believe that such a restoration is possible,
but must be done very carefully.)

Collis

    RE: .2
    
    Good! By the way, our former Minister is going through a "restoration"
    himself. Should prove to be interesting.
    
    Marc H.

    I believe the answer is yes.  I'll have to find the reference.
    I'm sure there must be something in the pastoral epistles, but
    I don't have my Bible with me.
    
    But I do believe that a fallen spiritual leader can be restored
    by God and be quite effective.  I sometimes feel that we are
    less willing to allow that forgiveness to take place.  We don't
    want to allow them back into the position.  I think this is
    because we forget to keep our eyes on God and focus to much on
    men.  I think our example should be when Peter was restored to the
    12 after denying Jesus three times.  How could Peter have been the
    rock that Christ built His church on if he were not restored by God?
    
    Jill

	Perhaps the expectations we have for ourselves fall short.  I'm not
clear on why clergy are expected to tred a higher moral plateau than the rest
of us.  It seems to me that this situation has the potential of creating
quite a wide chasm between laity and clergy.

Peace,
Richard

re.5

Richard,

One might also ask why the need for the clergy-laity system in the first
place.

ace

    I've been meaning to get back to this for a while. I grew up with
    a first hand view of the expectations placed on clergy. From the
    time I was a small child I was aware of the fact that my behavior
    could reflect on my father's career. His ability to run a church was
    tied, in some minds, with the way he ran his home and raised his 
    children. A significant burden to be sure. It is, I believe, one reason
    for the rebellion may children of clergy have.

    I think that some expectations people have are too high. Having perfect
    children is one of those. In part this is because the time demands that
    are placed on clergy are so very high that it can impact the time they
    actually have with their children.

    These leads to an other high expectation - availability. People expect
    their clergy available 24 hours a day 365 days a week. When someone
    dies the family doesn't want to call for an appointment 3 days hence. 
    Sometimes clergy are called for things that can wait or that can be 
    handed off. But somethings just don't wait. Our phone growing up rang
    at all times during the day and night. Letting it go up answered was
    a serious issue and never happened. One never know what sort of cry
    for help was on the other end.

    Clergy are also expected to have the answers. This is often the most
    unreasonable expectation. It's fairly easy to have a good understanding
    of what is in the Bible and of doctrine. A couple of years of school
    will handle that. But how to explain to someone why someone they loved
    died is far from easy. And it's not just religious issues that are
    brought to clergy. It's legal problems, money problems, housing
    problems, and just about anything else one can imagine.

    Then there is the issue of exemplifying the Christian life. People who
    attend church once a year expect the clergy to have a prayer for all
    occasions, to be able to quote the Bible on any subject at the drop
    of a hat, and never say a nasty word or do a bad thing. It means that
    clergy are on guard all the time. Not an easy life.

    And people have so many different ideas of what the Christian life is.
    Especially parts of it that they would follow if they "were religious."
    How much interest in women can single clergy have? No kissing before
    marriage? :-)

    It's not always easy. I do believe that God gives special help to those
    he calls to His full time ministry though. I don't think my father or
    uncle (or other clergy I've known) considered it an especially
    burdensome life. God doesn't ask us to do that which He will not give
    us the strength to do.

    		Alfred

    Alfred,
    
    About five years ago I attended a seminar for clergy at ANTS where the
    theme was: "The Burden and the Blessing".  There were about 300
    attendees and they were there to learn about both ends of the spectrum.
    
    Clergy are aware of the " end of their roles or they are living
    in a fantasy world.  The "blessing" is the motivator part of their
    work within the church IMHO (and it is for me as well).
    
    	Shalom,
    
    	Ron
    

Alfred (.7),

Thanks for sharing your story.  Being married to a man who's father is 
also clergy, stories like your's help me to understand better what my
husband and his brothers' lives were like as children.  I've had some 
interesting talks with my mother-in-law as well about her life as a 
minister's wife.

Quite awhile ago, I had the opportunity to date a member of clergy (single 
Episcopal priest).  I remember my daughter vehemently requesting me not to  
or in her words 'what if you married him, we'd have to be good all the 
time, we could never be ourselves again.'  Interestingly, my thoughts 
were similar to hers.

Ro

    Ro,
    
    Seems to me that if I married clergy it would have no effect on my
    life.  The order (for me) is to love God and then live your life.  Love
    God and the rest seems to fall in place.  Love God, be inspired by God,
    then bravely make your own (influenced by loving God!) decisions about
    such things as abortion, gays and lesbians, death sentences and so on).
    
    It isalso my belief that if you follow the above precept, ie. to love
    God first, then it is ok if you happen to have divergent thoughts
    and/or feelings about such subjects as abortion ... than others who
    also love God first and make their own (and different) decisions about
    those subjects which so alienates our society.
    
    	Shalom,
    
    	Ron
    

Ron,

I think what my daughter was getting at and how I felt was that people 
would place certain expectations on the wife and children of the 
clergy.  It would be a totally different and kind of scarey experience 
to be suddenly put in that situation.  Kind of like an invasion of 
privacy more than anything else.  I don't think we were thinking about 
the larger issues, just a feeling of being on display.

Ro

	In a recent survey, one half of all pastors said they feel incapable of
meeting the demands of the pastorate.

 I wonder if the pastorate has undue or misdirected expectations of the
 pastor.  It has been my experience that many church members (many churches for
 that matter) have a lack of understanding of the Biblical role of a pastor and 
 support staff (deacons, etc) or other church members.






 Jim

    re: .12
    >       In a recent survey, one half of all pastors said they feel
    > incapable of meeting the demands of the pastorate.

    Since the congregation is 100% incapable of meeting the demands of the
    ministry a 50% adequacy for pastors is remarkable.