Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    Yes.....I believe that you can only realize the realm of Heaven upon
    Death. I have sure felt...heavenly at times, but it always ends.
    
    
    Marc H.

Jesus spoke extensively about the kingdom of God, which Matthew refers to as
the kingdom of Heaven.

Jesus spoke of the realm of God (Heaven) in terms of the present and of the
future.

Richard

    This isn't theological, it's semiotic.

    Heaven is the abode of God, angels, and the souls of the saved, by
    definition, in Christianity.

    Unless your talking about being in some place that makes you feel so
    happy, you feel like it's "heaven", the question is meaningless.

Funny, I always thought Jesus said the Kingdom of Heaven was within.  
I tend to believe it is an inner state - the peace that passeth all 
understanding and all that.

Ro

    RE: .4
    
    Good point. I agree.
    
    Marc H.

Do we distinguish between "Heaven" and "The Kingdom of Heaven"?

Ro, what does the Church teach about this?

/john

    Heaven exists as all creation exists within the mind of God.
    
    If you believe that Jesus said that Heaven exists within the mind of
    a human being, then where did Jesus say that?

    RE: .4 Ro,
    
    		I seem to remember three different heavens being used in
    the Bible.  One was the heaven where God resides, another is what you
    look up and see at night, and that third one I can't seem to call to
    mind right now.  Maybe someone else has it.
    
    		I do remember Jesus saying that and I'll look it up tonight
    when I get home but I have heard it intrepreted as the "key" to getting
    into Heaven was within all of us....ie the acceptance of Jesus.  I also
    remember, and this may play a part, that there is a "piece" within each
    of us that knows about God.  Even those in third world countries who
    haven't been exposed to traditional Christian teachings.  This is the
    explination why people feel that certain inner comfort when its related
    to them for the first time.  I'll have to research that also.
    
    
    Dave

I found the topic where we discussed this before.  Note 292, The Kingdom of God
is Within (Richard's reply .2 talks about Kingdom of God=Kingdom of Heaven).

/john, you're a better resource for what the church 'officially' teaches than I
am; perhaps you should tell me!  ;')

Pat, I didn't say in the human beings' mind, I don't think that's where our
connection with Divinity resides.  At least, I know when I am in a meditative
state, centered in my Being and accessing the Source it is within my Heart not
my brain.

Ro

>Even those in third world countries who haven't been exposed to traditional
>Christian teachings.

Be careful of generalizations about third world countries.  There are
more Christians in Africa than in North America.

But your point is correct, but probably belongs in the "salvation for all"
topic rather than here.

/john

>/john, you're a better resource for what the church 'officially' teaches than
>I am; perhaps you should tell me!  ;')

Instead, I'll ask you to read the section in the Prayer Book Catechism on
"The Christian Hope", beginning on page 861.

For others, the most important part is what I have presented before:

	"By heaven, we mean eternal life in our enjoyment of God."

Although "Heaven" explicitly refers to the abode of God and our afterlife
united with God in the joy of fully knowing Him (for nothing, not even death,
shall separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord),
we can experience a foretaste of heaven by living in harmony with our neighbors
and with God.  We also have an explicit foretaste of the Wedding Feast of the
Lamb as described in the Revelation of St. John every time we ascend to the
altar (an experience of going to the mountain to commune with God) to receive
the Body and Blood of Christ, for what is described in the Apocalypse is most
definitely quite similar to a solemn high Mass!

/john

    Ro - 
    
    I agree with you that we all carry Heaven within us.  To me, that isn't
    a place but a state of mind...no, a state of soul.  When we are
    connected or at one with the Divine Presence we call God then, to me,
    that's Heaven.
    
    Nanci

Heaven is sometimes indicated in the Bible as someplace where one might ascend;
Elijah in the Old Testament and Jesus, according to Luke, in the New Testament.

I personally have difficulty grasping this as my understanding says that if you
ascend beyond the Earth's atmosphere you'll find yourself in space; empty,
dark and cold - not my idea of Heaven.

I recall as a child, I conceptualized Heaven as someplace "up" where someone
goes when they die.  I'm starting to challenge that notion in my own mind.

I've noticed that when Jesus spoke of the realm of Heaven or of Life
Everlasting, he rarely makes a direct correlation to death.

Peace,
Richard

"UP" is a conceptualization of the unreachable which was understandable to
early man (er, humankind).

Now that we are more sophisticated about time and space, we tend to think of
heaven, the abode of God, as being completely separate from the physical world.

I don't think that we will find any scriptural reference by Jesus to heaven
being within any particular part of the human person, mind or heart.

The sentiments that heaven is within us, that we may find "heavenly" peace
and a foretaste of our relationship with God within ourselves and within
communities committed to Christ are good, for they help us live the Christian
life.

But do not let sentimental thoughts deflect you from the Christian hope of
life after death in heaven -- out of this world -- in the presence of God.

/john

Note 585.14

>But do not let sentimental thoughts deflect you from the Christian hope of
>life after death in heaven -- out of this world -- in the presence of God.

/john,

I figure I'll eventually find out what the skinny is one way or the other.
I'm in no rush to prematurely exit this life.

Peace,
Richard

Stick around, Richard.  We all have much to learn in this life to prepare us
for the life of the world to come.

More Church teaching on heaven, especially for the benefit of any Episcopalians
who are reading here.  (One important way the Episcopal Church teaches is
through prayers in the Book of Common Prayer.  Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi.)

Postcommunion prayer for Requiem Masses, BCP, p.498:

Almighty God, we thank you that in your great love you have fed us with
the spiritual food and drink of the Body and Blood of your Son Jesus Christ,
and have given us a foretaste of your heavenly banquet.  Grant that this
Sacrament may be to us a comfort in affliction, and a pledge of our
inheritance in that kingdom where there is no death, neither sorrow nor
crying, but the fullness of joy with all your saints; through Jesus Christ
our Saviour.  Amen.

Two "Additional Prayers", selected from the BCP, p.504

O God, whose days are without end, and whose mercies cannot be numbered:
Make us, we pray, deeply aware of the shortness and uncertainty of human
life; and let your Holy Spirit lead us in holiness and righteousness all
our days; that, when we shall have served you in our generation, we may be
gathered to our ancestors, having the testimony of a good conscience, in
the communion of the Catholic Church, in the confidence of a certain faith,
in the comfort of a religious and holy hope, in favor with you, our God,
and in perfect charity with the world.  All this we ask through Jesus Christ
our Lord.  Amen.

Lord Jesus Christ, by your death you took away the sting of death:  Grant
to us your servants so to follow in faith where you have led the way, that
we may at length fall asleep peacefully in you and wake up in your likeness;
for your tender mercies' sake.  Amen.

    We are told in scripture that eye has not seen nor man imagined what 
    awaits us in heaven; we know that we will see God completely and that
    we will be made perfect like Jesus. 
    
    The body that we have now will turn to dust; the glorified body that we 
    will have in heaven will be new. Only our spirit/soul will survive this 
    earthly life. 
    
    Our Eucharistic food, the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, is food for
    the spirit and life-giving to it. 
    
    Our call to holiness is a call to having life in Christ and for the 
    perfecting of ourselves to be more and more conformed in the image of
    Christ. To the extent that we grow in holiness, the more we will know
    Christ and know his peace.
    
    I think that, as written before, we can have a foretaste of heaven the
    more we die to self and allow Jesus to live in us. 
    
    Saints and mystics have given accounts of mystical experiences of being
    shown heaven, but this is no doubt filtered through a very limited
    ability to describe the indescribable. It is probably like watching
    a film of people eating at a banquet but not being able to actually
    taste the food. 
    
    Mary
     

	In my study of the Bible I can find no support for the idea
that when a believer dies he/she "goes to heaven".

	I think this idea must have slipped into the church through some 
Buddist teaching.

ace 

    Mt 5:12
    
    Be glad and rejoice for your reward is great in heaven.
    
    (that's Jesus, not Buddha)

    
    In Genesis 5:24, I believe I've heard that the actual meaning of:
    
    "Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took 
     him away."
    
    Was not that Enoch died, but that God took him off this earth.
    He literally disappeared.  So while it would appear that death as
    we know it is not a prerequisite, you're not exactly living here
    so I guess it's the end (or death) of this life.  
    
    I believe this would be similar to the second coming.  The dead in
    Christ shall rise first, then those who are living shall be taken.
    I'll have to find the reference unless anyone knows it offhand.
    
    Jill

>In my study of the Bible I can find no support for the idea
>that when a believer dies he/she "goes to heaven".

Might be one of the reasons the Church has taught the existence of
an intermediate state, sometimes called "the place of the departed
spirits", sometimes called "Purgatory".

A place where we "continue to grow in [God's] love and service" (BCP p.330
in case there are Episcopalians reading), until God raises us all on the
last day so that "we may be partakers of [his] heavenly kingdom".

Now, since time is irrelevant outside this transitory world, the time
relationship between the day of our death and the actual day of judgment
is beyond our comprehension.

Thus we speak of "The Church Militant"	- on earth, proclaiming the Word
		 "The Church Expectant"	- the deparated, awaiting heaven
                 "The Church Triumphant" - those in Heaven, at the end of time.

/john

re.19

	Patrick,

	With a heavy dose of inference it might be possible to interpret MT 5:12 
as "when you die you go to heaven". But actually, it doesn't say that. It says
"...great is your reward *in* heaven", not "great is your reward, heaven" and
the actual passage is not referring to dying, though we could agree that to
die is to be persecuted. But to be persecuted does not necessarily mean that
one dies. So if you are persecuted for Him but do not die you still
accumulate something (a reward) in heaven. But what if you are not willing to
be persecuted for the Lord's sake, will you receive the same reward as someone
who died for Him or suffered physically. 

Therefore, this verse alone is insufficient to proof that "when you die you
go to heaven". However, it is ample proof that those who are willing to suffer
persecution for the Lord Jesus will receive a reward. This seems to imply that
those who are not willing to suffer presecution for the Lord Jesus will not
receive a reward or at least the same reward.

Regards,
ACe

    It's been my understanding that when Jesus did speak about death, he
    was usually speaking about spiritual death rather than physical death.
    
    Richard
    

re.20

Jill,

> The dead in
>    Christ shall rise first, then those who are living shall be taken.

Thessalonians 5 (I think).

Yes, Jill, you have the sequence exactly right. First the dead believers are
caught up to the air, followed by the living beleivers, also caught up to the
air. By that time the Lord Jesus will have come from heaven to the earth's 
atmosphere.

regards,
ace

re.21

Hey John, I don't find evidence whatsoever for Purgatory in the Bible.

The Bible indicates that the abode of the dead is Hades.

regards,
ace

>Hey John, I don't find evidence whatsoever for Purgatory in the Bible.
>
>The Bible indicates that the abode of the dead is Hades.

I'm not sure the Bible is clear about difference between Hades, Gehenna,
the place of the departed spirits, and Purgatory, all abodes of the dead
until the last day.  (Recognizing that after death, time is beyond our
comprehension.)

The Biblical references that have been part of the teaching of the Church on
the intermediate state and the efficacy of prayers for the dead are:

	All men therefore praising the Lord, the righteous judge,
	who had opened the things that were hid, betook themselves
	unto prayer, and besought him that the sin committed might
	wholly be put out of remembrance.  Besides, that noble
	Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin,
	forsomuch as they saw before their eyes the things that
	came to pass for the sins of those that were slain.

	And when he had made a gathering throughout the company to
	the sum of two thousand drachms of silver, he sent it to
	Jerusalem to offer a sin offering, doing therein very well
	and honestly, in that he was mindful of the resurrection:
	For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should
	have risen again, it had been superfluous and vain to pray
	for the dead.

	And also in that he perceived that there was great favour
	laid up for those that died godly, it was an holy and good
	thought.  Whereupon he made a reconciliation for the dead,
	that they might be delivered from sin.
					--II Macc. 41-45, KJV

	And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall
	be forgiven him; but whosoever speaketh against the Holy
	Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world,
	neither in the world to come.
					--Matt. 12:32, KJV

/john

    
    Thanks Ace.  Found it.  I Thess. 4:13-18.  Also, RE: .22:
    
    This is interesting.  This is the third time this week this has been
    emphasized to me...
    
    > But what if you are not willing to be persecuted for the Lord's sake,
    will you receive the same reward as someone who died for Him or
    suffered physically.
    
    This is similar to the subject of my pastor's message on Wednesday 
    evening.  His text was II Peter 1:3-11.
    
    In vs. 10-11 states that if you do these things (make every effort to
    add to your faith goodness, knowledge, self-control, perseverance,
    godliness, brotherly kindness, love) you will never fall, and you will
    receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior
    Jesus Christ.
    
    This implies that if you don't make an effort, although you might get
    into heaven you will not receive this rich welcome.  Gives the very
    distinct impression that heaven will be very personalized according to
    what we do in this life.  The pastor added that he believed the same
    was true of hell.  Although, I don't have a reference for you.
    
    Another interesting point in vs 3 is that we are fully equipped with
    divine power to be whatever type of Christian we want to be.  It is in
    us to have total victory over sin and to grow tremendously in these
    7 traits of faith.
    
    Jill
    
    P.S.  Sorry if I went a little off subject.

re.26

Probably why Maccabees never made it into the Bible..  8*) 8*)

As for Matthew, well he made it into the Bible but "the world to come" is 
hardly about Hades (which is not a world to come at all, rather an existing
place and hardly a world as this one is).

ace

>Probably why Maccabees never made it into the Bible..  8*) 8*)

Hmmm.  It's in my King James Bible, and also was in the Greek bible the
Apostles would have been familiar with...

re.27

Jill,

Nice portion of the Bible. Taken as a whole, 2 Peter 1:3 begins with what God
has granted the believers...

	"As His divine power has granted to us all things which relate to
	life and godliness..."V3

and concludes with the result..

	"For so shall be richly and bountifully supplied to you the entrance
into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."V11

The process between the beginning and the result are the items you
mentioned which is just His divine power working out in us on a daily
and moment by moment basis which results in our rich entrance into the eternal
kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! Sorta like some people go to
a football game and have tickets for the bleachers, and others have special 
tickets which gets them a "sky box" booth. If we allow Christ to work in us
we'll get a "sky box" seat!  8*) 

Regards,
Ace

re.29

If the Apostles had ever quoted ol' Mac, or mentioned him then it might have
given some credibility to his book.

Who knows, 100 years from now people may infer that the famous church
historian John Covert must have eaten green eggs and ham because the entire
collection of Dr.Seuss books was discovered in what was thought to be in his
attic.  8*)

ace

    re: .18/.19

    I took your question sincerely, even though by mentioning "Buddist
    teaching" you implicitly demean the traditional Christian teaching
    regarding heaven by suggesting a non-Christian origin.

    I took your phrase "no support" sincerely and could immediately recall
    that verse from the Sermon on the Mount which supports the traditional
    Christian teaching regarding heaven.                   

re.32

But Patrick,

I was sincere! I honestly can't find such evidence that "dead christians go to
heaven" in the Bible! I think the notion came from the Buddist teaching about
"west heaven" or some such thing.

Perhaps you're confused about my notes about entrance into the kingdom? 
The Bible is very clear that His people will spend eternity with Him 
(Rev 21,22). But die and go to heaven is not the same thing exactly.

As for traditional christian teaching, well I think it could use a little
demeaning here and there. But the Bible I treasure. 

Ace

    Until we reach a common understanding of what is meant by
    
    death
    kingdom
    Heaven
    His people
    God
    
    you will be quibbling over definitions with people who accept the
    traditional Christian teaching of 20 centuries.

RE.34

True. Very true.

I would also add that the antiquity of a thing, doesn't mean that thing is the
true. From my reading of the Bible, the Lord Jesus or the apostles never
taught "when you die you go to heaven". In many cases, holding on to such an 
idea may not matter. Then again, if a christian is under the impression that
once they are saved, all is well because they are assured of heaven, then live
the rest of their earthly lives like the devil, well, then it does matter. In
that case not knowing the truth about the goal of their destiny caused them to
become careless and when He returns to earth, he will judge His saints in the
air and they will either enter into the marriage feast with Him or be cast
into outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth. Eternally
all christians will enjoy His presence but not in heaven, rather in the city,
in the new heaven and new earth (Rev 21, 22).

Regards,
Ace

>Eternally all christians will enjoy His presence but not in heaven, rather
>in the city, in the new heaven and new earth (Rev 21, 22).

The New Jerusalem is, of course, the traditional Christian teaching on what
"heaven" is.

From the time of one's death until the creation of the new heaven and the
new earth, traditional teaching refers to an "intermediate state", where
conditions are unknown, but where we hope those who love God will continue
to grow in his love and service until the final day.

And again:  this all takes place outside the accidents of the time and space
concepts of this physical world, so time is irrelevant, or at least different.

/john

    Ace:
    
    Do you consider Paradise seperate from Heaven in considering what Jesus
    promised to the thief on the cross?  Some people believe this is
    Abraham's Bosom, where the Old Testment saved ended up going.
    
    In regards to the Nether world, Hebrews 9 tells us it is appointed for
    us to die once and after this, the judgement.  If the sins of the
    world were purged on the cross, there is nothing I can do or anybody
    else after I leave this world!
    
    In Christ,
    
    Jack

re .37

	Jack,

	Another perspective is that Paradise will be here on earth. Jehovah
	God orginally put Adam in Paradise or the garden of Eden and God's
	purpose was that Adam & Eve and their offspring were to extend its 
	boundaries to cover the earth, bringing praise and honour to the 
	Universal Sovereign. Genesis 2:15 NWT reads "And Jehovah God proceeded 
	to take man and settle him in the garden of Eden to cultivate and to 
	take care of it." and Genesis 1:28 NWT reads "Further, God blessed 
	them and God said to them: " Be fruitful and become many and fill the 
	earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea 
	and every living creature that is moving upon the earth." Because
	of their disobedience Adam could not fulfill God's commission,
	in subduing the earth by extending the boundaries of Eden, for he 
	and Eve were removed from the garden.


	Isaiah 55:11 NWT reads "so my word that goes forth from my mouth
	will prove to be. It will not return to me without results, but
	it will certainly do that which I have delighted, and it will have
	certain success in that which I have sent it.". With this promise,
	eventhough Adam & Eve failed in their commission, we can see that
	the command to "fill the earth and subdue it" in extending the
	boundaries of Paradise will certainly take place through Adam's
	offspring for God's command to Adam and his offspring will not
	return to him without results. Hence, contained in the Bible are
	many prophecies of the earth being turned into paradise conditions
	such as mentioned in Isaiah 35.
	
	But how will he accomplish this? a clue to the answer is found 
	in Matthew 6:10.

	Phil. 

	P.S. this reply is similar to note 481.3 in GOLF::CHRISTIAN

re.37

Jack,

>    Do you consider Paradise seperate from Heaven in considering what Jesus
>    promised to the thief on the cross? 

	Yes.

	
ace