Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    THAT is a very good question.  I'm anxious to see the replies - in the
    meantime .. try this on for size:

    One thing that I really miss .. having been gone from the church for
    so long .. is the music.  How I dearly love the old hymns:
                                           ----

    	.The Old Rugged Cross		.Guide Us, O Thou Great Jehova
    	.Amazing Grace			.Nearer, My God, To Thee
    	.Bringing in the Sheaves	.Holy, Holy, Holy
    	.God of our Fathers		.Come, Come, Ye Saints
    	.Abide With me			.Oh God, Our Help in Ages Past
    	.How Firm a Foundation		.The Church in the Wildwood
    	.Onward Christian Soldiers	.A Mighty Fortress is our God

    Sure, I like the commercial recorded versions but there is nothing in
    this world that can compare to the voices of Mr and Mrs America belting
    out  "Come, Come, Ye Saints" while an old broken down organ tries to
    keep up with the congregation.

    Do they still sing these hymns .. or am I just "old fashioned"?

    There were times when I wished I was Catholic ... "Ave Maria" is
    still a breathtaking piece of music.

    Now, Richard, do you consider this a "benefit" of church membership?
    I most assuredly do.

    Bubba

    PS:  Side story.  I was married in a small country Methodist church in a
    town of 1,500 people in East Texas (Quitman, Texas).  Boy, did I cause a
    ruckus because I declined Mendelshon's traditional wedding march and opted
    for "Purcell's Trumpet Voluntary in D".  Not only that .. during the
    ceremony I had one of my friends sing ... "Ave Maria" .. in Latin!!
    They're STILL talkin' 'bout our wedding!!

>    One thing that I really miss .. having been gone from the church for
>    so long .. is the music.  How I dearly love the old hymns:

    Me too. Yes, they do still sing them. In fact the services I miss most
    are Sunday night hymn sings. All we did was sing.

    But really that's a benefit of church attendance not membership. You
    don't have to be a member to attend. So you don't have an excuse there
    Jerry. :-)

    Usually becoming a member involves a special service and formal
    acceptance of the churches creed. 
    
    Most churches don't place too many limits of what people who are not
    members can do in the life of a church. Generally the only extra
    benefit of membership is that you can get more involved in politics.
    Members can vote at an annual meeting and/or represent the church in
    area wide decision making meetings. Interestingly enough, as an
    aside, there are many policy making meetings in the Methodist church
    where lay members can vote but clergy can not.
    
    Other churches may be different. I think that the Catholic church
    requires that you be a member to have your children baptized etc.

    		Alfred

    PS: Side story. My wedding was fairly non traditional. My father, the
    pastor who was performing the wedding, had all sorts of things he
    wanted to try out. We agreed to just about all of them and added a few
    things of our own. People are still talking about that one too. 

re Note 555.2 by CVG::THOMPSON:

>     Other churches may be different. I think that the Catholic church
>     requires that you be a member to have your children baptized etc.
  
        Various denominations differ as to what constitutes
        "membership." In many Protestant denominations, one becomes a
        member not of the denomination but of a local congregation. 

        In the Roman Catholic Church, one really doesn't have
        membership in the local congregation per se (yes, you are
        asked to "sign up" yourself and your family, and perhaps take
        weekly collection envelops, but that is nothing like the
        formal membership process in other denominations).

        On the other hand, there definitely is membership in the
        world-wide Roman Catholic Church, and in the case of adults,
        the process is quite involved and formal.  Children seem to
        get in almost for free by being baptized (and receiving other
        sacraments as they reach a suitable age).

        Then, of course, there is membership in the universal Church,
        the body of Christ.  That's the membership that REALLY
        counts.

        Bob

    RE: .1
    
    I also used that sound for my wedding.....glad to see that even a
    Texan can have good taste.
    
    Marc H.

What are the benefits of church membership?

Well, I'm not sure there are any real benefits to belonging to an
institutional church.  Yet, becoming a member is something I feel is
important to do to signify a covenantal relationship with a body of
Christians.

Membership often includes the expectation of taking an active role in the
life of the church.  The members are the first ones nominated to serve on
committees and in other capacities.  Positions of leadership often require
membership in good standing for a certain length of time.

Official memberships do vary according to the church.  Many churches are
required to give an apportionment to the wider church body based on the
numbers their membership roll.  Since this can impact the purse, these
churches tend to purge the rolls of inactive members on a regular basis.

Peace,
Richard

Bubba Jerry .1,

	I agree.  Everything you pointed out is certainly a benefit of attending
church.  (And yes, you are old fashioned.  And yes, they still sing those old
familiar hymns.) ;-)

	I guess I was pondering more the meaning of the status of church
membership though.  This is a question which arises frequently among Quakers
of the unprogrammed tradition (Did you ever see the movie "Friendly
Persuasion"?) since the regular attenders are often virtually indistinguishable
in how they participate from actual members.

	I figure someday I'll re-establish my membership in a Quaker
meeting.  But for the time being, I believe I'm right where God wants me.

Peace,
Richard

    In the UU church the only requirement for membership is to sign up in
    the membership book.  The UU is also a congregational style church
    which means that each church is independent and its own legal body.  As
    in matters of faith, each individual decides for themselves what
    membership means to them and when they are ready to sign up.
    
    The actual meaning of membership is then political.  you must be a
    member to vote at the annual church meeting or any special meeting.
    
    One does not have to be a member to be part of the covenental
    community.  Participation is more critical than membership.
    
    A church is a body of people coming together to commit themselves to a
    purpose greater than themselves. Some call that purpose God.  I believe it
    is a very powerful experience when one considers them self a participant.
    
    When I started going to my church, I attended a church.  It was a
    building I went to to attend service.  At a specific point, the church
    became a community of which I was a part with lots of responsibility
    for helping to make the church the kind of community that was important
    to me.    Membership, attendence, participation.  Each is very
    different.  And of course the meaning of each changes depending on the
    denomination.
    
                                      Patricia

    As Richard pointed out, in unprogrammed Quaker meetings there is often
    little distinction between members and regular attenders.  In my
    original home meeting, for example, even the treasurer was a
    non-member.  For a period of time as a non-member I was the person who
    unlocked the building and set up the facility for weekly worship.  That
    was a very small meeting, though, so people available to do that sort
    of thing were often scarce.  Perhaps in larger meetings that is less
    common.

    I think one benefit of membership is that it creates a sense of
    belonging.  I wouldn't underestimate the importance of that.  Of
    course, that doesn't come for free; I suspect that in many
    denominations, as a member you are expected to contribute to the
    operation of the congregation in some way, through volunteer efforts
    and perhaps through financial pledges as well.

    For Quakers, your membership is with your local denomination, which is
    called a "Monthly Meeting".  I am still a member of the Colorado
    Springs meeting, but I have finally put in a request to transfer my
    membership to a Massachusetts meeting.  In general, it is preferred
    that you move your membership with your new home, and I had been
    putting this off for some time.

    I like Patricia's definition of what constitutes a church.  Quakers
    don't call their places of worship "churches", but I would extend her
    definition to the Quaker meetinghouse as well.  For Quakers, the common
    purpose that we hold in common is not creeds per se; I think where the
    benefit of membership lies, besides a sense of belonging to a local
    worshiping community, is in a special feeling for me of identifying
    with the traditions and history of the Quaker faith.  The ability to
    say that I am a Quaker means that I have made a commitment to something
    I believe in, in a way that I wouldn't be able to do if I merely said
    that I were an attender.

    -- Mike

From:	CRL::"QUAKER-L%[email protected]" "Quaker Concerns, peace issues, consensus process, spirituality" 25-NOV-1992 13:00:37.07
To:	Multiple recipients of list QUAKER-L <QUAKER-L%[email protected]>
CC:	
Subj:	convincement, mostly

Before I get to the topic of this note, I wanted to say the notes on titles
have been somewhat helpful (but I still feel I need to work on getting the
obligatory "Dr." out of my speech!)

Someone asked about stories from convinced Friends about how they decided to
join the Friends.  I attended for several months, then decided that I wanted
to join my monthly meeting.  "Why?" I asked myself, and the answer came back
"Because I want to belong."  I decided that this was not a good enough answer,
because I realized that if I defined "belongingness" from outside myself, I
would never believe it.  So I waited a while longer and asked myself "Why?"
again.  The day I realized that I already identified myself as a Friend and
that membership in my meeting would only formalize what I already felt in my
heart, I applied for membership.

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