Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    Why do you assume that you become evil by opposing evil? I know
    you said "hate" not "evil" as the object to fight. Can I assume that
    you hate evil? If not, what makes you assume that you will become
    hatefull if you oppose the thing you hate?
    
    			Alfred

Note 547.1

>    Why do you assume that you become evil by opposing evil?

I guess I assume too much in Notes.  I figured everybody would just naturally
have a grasp of what I am talking about.

>    I know
>    you said "hate" not "evil" as the object to fight.

I think I said "oppose evil," rather than "oppose hate."  However, now that I
think about it, hate in the right context is not a bad thing to oppose, either.

>    Can I assume that
>    you hate evil?

You may assume that I oppose evil.

>    If not, what makes you assume that you will become
>    hatefull if you oppose the thing you hate?

Well, I don't think it would be inevitable.  Otherwise, I wouldn't have even
raised the question.

Richard

>>    Why do you assume that you become evil by opposing evil?
>
>I guess I assume too much in Notes.  I figured everybody would just naturally
>have a grasp of what I am talking about.
    
    Or maybe I'm just dense. So far I'm still clueless. Elaborate please?
    
>Well, I don't think it would be inevitable.  Otherwise, I wouldn't have even
>raised the question.
    
    Let me ask an other way. What makes you think it's even likely?
    
    		Alfred

>>    I know
>>    you said "hate" not "evil" as the object to fight.
>
>I think I said "oppose evil," rather than "oppose hate."  However, now that I
>think about it, hate in the right context is not a bad thing to oppose, either.

.0>    	How can we oppose evil without becoming the thing we hate?

    Actually you did say oppose evil. But you said become the thing we
    hate. I guess this confused me. So did you mean "oppose evil become
    evil" or "oppose evil become something you hate?" It would really help
    communication if you'd elaborate a bit more in your base notes.
    Sometimes you are a bit to cryptic or esoteric for those of us with
    less sophisticated minds.
    
    		Alfred

>How can we oppose evil without becoming the thing we hate?

Hmmm.  Strange question Richard.

Let's see.  The Eastern Orthodox Churches have opposed the admission of the
Metropolitan Community Churches to the National Council of Churches because
Orthodox bishops oppose the affirmation of homosexuality by the MCC.

MCC will, for now, get only observer status in the NCC.

So what do you say the Orthodox bishops are becoming?  Homosexual?

/john

Well, darn it, Alfred! 8-)  I'm trying to avoid giving an example for fear of
focusing on the example instead of the question.

Have you ever known of a situation where the victims of oppression (evil) and
perhaps those who struggle against oppression (oppose evil) actually become
the oppressors (the very thing they hated?) or like the oppressors??

Richard

PS  I don't believe that business about your being dense.

    RE: Base note....
    
    			I can see what I think Richard is getting at. Many
    times the very thing we seen to be most against is what we become.  The
    "fight fire with fire" thought sometimes will burn you up.  I seen it
    happen many times with Christians who decide to witness lets say in a
    stripper bar and then gets hooked on watching the women. 
    
    			Can it be that we (Christians) are *SO* into the
    letter of the law that we are being blinded by it?  The Pharisee's had
    Gods word but were *SO* into the letter of the law that it caused them
    to not see the true intent of God.
    
    
    Dave

    A bogus dialog.  What is the common ground for dialog about what is
    evil, what is hate?
    
    "How can we oppose good without becoming the thing we love?"

    
    >"How can we oppose good without becoming the thing we love?"
                 ^^^^^^
    
    		Replace this word with "be for" and I think you have a
    true statement and one that is opposite to the basenote's question.
    
    
    Dave 
       

    Richard, thanks for reminding me not to let my subscription to "The
    Other Side" run out.  :-)
    
    Your question is a very good one, and it is one that I struggle with.
    I welcome bona fide discussion on this subject.
    
    -- Mike

    .0,
    
    The potential to "become" or "embody" the evilness which we oppose 
    is a very real one, and happens much more often than may be realized.  
    It easily disguises itself in the zeal and justificaitons of that which
    we so righteously oppose. 
    
    I'll give some examples.  The abused child who grows up to become an 
    abuser.  The feminist who protests oppression against herself, and 
    turns around and oppresses others, particularly men.
    
    The essence of that which we oppose also exists within ourselves. When
    this is not realized, the natural response is to project it outward, 
    to see it and oppose it in others, before we see it in ourselves.  Sort
    of like the saying "consider the mote in your own eye..."  Human nature
    is inherently like that, but from a Christian perspective, it is also
    the entry point for Christ, Truth, Grace and Redemption in one's life.   
    
    The oppressed always run the risk of becoming the oppressors;  and it's
    easier, much easier than we think to become that which we oppose.
    
    Karen   

>Have you ever known of a situation where the victims of oppression (evil) and
>perhaps those who struggle against oppression (oppose evil) actually become
>the oppressors (the very thing they hated?) or like the oppressors??

    Sure, it's a common tool in fiction. I haven't seen it in real life
    though. I can see how it can happen but do not see it as anything like
    the inevitableness you're .0 suggests. I think it happens only when
    people lose sight of who they are and what it is they really want to
    accomplish.

    		Alfred

    Karen, I think you described the problem well.  You are correct that it
    is easy to become what we oppose, and it is a very real problem.  
    
    I think that brings us back to Richard's original question:  how do we
    avoid this from happening?
    
    -- Mike

>    I think that brings us back to Richard's original question:  how do we
>    avoid this from happening?

Through the power of God's saving grace.

    
    RE: .12 Karen
    
    You've basically summarized how I feel about this question.
    
    Carole

    
    RE: .14 Mike
    
    How do we avoid this from happening?  Speaking for myself, I seek
    out my own darkness - I endeavor to merge with my own shadow - in so
    doing over time less and less of my own darkness will be projected
    outside of myself and look like 'other', like something to hate or
    repress.  I endeavor to bring light into my own darkness, thereby
    bringing more light into the world.
    
    Carole

    RE: .14  Mike,
    
    
    			I think focus is the key along with "talking" about
    issues long submirged by society.  Abuse is a good example.  It has
    only been recently that society, as a whole, has begun to talk this
    problem out.  Now we need to focus our attention on this subject and
    deal with it from a Christian point of view.  Its oh so easy to place
    all the issues into our Christian dogma but when that dogma takes the
    place of application it becomes useless.  
    
    
    Dave 

    Carole, I like your metaphor of light and darkness within; this is
    something that speaks directly to the Quaker metaphor of the light
    within.  And I agree that nurturing the light within is an important
    process.  I also think that this effort of nurturing that light is
    often difficult, especially as we get set in our ways.  This gets back
    to the question I posed in topic 348, "Self Improvement".
    
    -- Mike

    >Its oh so easy to place all the issues into our Christian dogma but
    >when that dogma takes the place of application it becomes useless.  
    
    Well put, Dave.
    
    -- Mike

	RE: .17 That sounds very nice but I haven't a clue as to how one
	actually does such a thing. Could you "cook book" it for me? Thanks.

			Alfred

re Note 547.0 by CSC32::J_CHRISTIE:

>     	How can we oppose evil without becoming the thing we hate?
  
        My answer is simple -- look at Jesus' example.

        You don't find many people, Christian or non-Christian,
        living and working as Jesus did.

        It's fundamental, i.e., it's radical.

        Bob

    Bob, I agree, and I also think that *living* Jesus's example is much
    more difficult than merely looking at it.  That is why, as you point
    out, so few people, Christian or non-Christian, truly live up to that
    ideal.  Although some may de-emphasize or ignore Jesus's example because
    it doesn't suit their theology, we must also recognize that others may
    sincerely wish to emulate Jesus but find that society, their own
    personality, or their upbringing often conflicts with the realization
    of that ideal.  Thus while, as you say, the answer is simple, the
    implementation of that answer is anything but.

    -- Mike

Hmmm... Maybe I'm far afield here, but this is my perspective on Richard's 
question.

As an example, let's say we live in a country where there is a powerful,
uncaring, slow moving government administration (purely hypothetical...) 
and you want to change it.  

There's not much you can do yourself, but you seek out friends who feel the
same way as you do about it, and start meeting to discuss ways of improving
the situation.  After having met in each other's living rooms, you decide that 
you really need more supporters to get the ball rolling.  You start posting 
handbills and stand on street corners inviting people to come to a meeting in 
an auditorium you've rented (out of your own pocket).

Now at this point you need some professional organizational skills, public 
relations, people to design flyers that will catch people's attentions faster.
You decide to rent an office, and start asking for contributions.

Your organization grows and spreads to other cities, each needing offices, 
personnel, phone systems and FAX machines for communication between offices.
At this point, contributions aren't enough, so you start charging a membership 
fee.  You need computers to keep track of your mailing lists and who has payed 
what and who needs to be reminded that their membership will expire if the 
check isn't in the mail tomorrow...

Perhaps your organization becomes powerful enough to actually have the 
existing bureaucracy replaced with your own.

Your original plan to revamp a powerful, uncaring, slow moving government 
administration has gradually become the very thing you set out to oppose.
It happens gradually so you may not notice as you start paying more attention 
to the means than to the goal.  You have become, in my definition, a fanatic.
You have forgotten why you are doing what you are doing, being wrapped up in 
simply doing it.

Saint Paul tells us about running the good race.  You can only do that if you 
keep your focus on the finishline.  That is one piece of advice I believe can 
help us not become what we hate.  As Christians, where is our focus?  On 
understanding the Bible?  Feeding the poor?  Supporting the Church?  All good 
things, but each with it's own dangers, as we become too laden with dogmatism, 
or actually encourage people to remain poor and dependent on such good deeds,
or caught up in high finances and politics.

my Christian Perspective,  Peace,

Jim

    Bob - 
    
    I agree with you wholeheartedly.  I think the trick is to stay in
    integrity with your own morals and ethics but also to stay in integrity
    with the opposing side.  And, more important of all is to stay in
    integrity and alignment with God.  For instance, on this Ammendment 2
    thing, I'm constantly asking "what would God have me do?", "if God were
    posed this question, what would He say".  I believe are each 
    given the opportunity to be God's mouthpiece in every word we utter as
    long as we stay in alignment and in integrity with ourselves and each 
    other.  
    
    When I talk about alignment and integrity I mean that, as we interract
    with each other we are conciously aware that, regardless of the current
    disagreement, we are all always a cherished child of God and that God
    values each of us equally.
    
    Nanci  
    
    

   RE: .21

   Sure Alfred.  Let's see if I can give you an example of this process.
   
   Perhaps there is someone in my life who I am jealous of.  This jealousy
   causes me much pain and as a result, I am not able to support this friend
   in their endeavors quite to the extent that I would like to.  I withhold
   from them, and this in turn hurts them.  There is a lot of energy expended
   in the 'unspoken' feelings between us.

   As I begin to look at this jealousy more deeply within myself, I see that
   there is a part of me that feels inadequate and threatened by this other
   person.  I have a place inside me that does not feel like it is "enough" -
   not good enough, or talented enough, or nice enough, etc.  I allow myself
   to journey within and dialogue with this dark place.  Once I can be with
   this inner part of me without judging myself, I can allow myself to merge
   with it, to embrace it in love and understanding of why and how it was
   created, and then to let the light of this understanding and love fill
   this dark place.  I am a step further to becoming whole, to reconnecting
   with those parts of myself that have been shut off.

   What can then be born out of this is the embracing in joy my friend's
   accomplishments rather than be threatened by them and not wanting my
   friend to succeed.

   I hope this is what you were looking for Alfred.

   Carole

Good discussion.

I was doing a book study of Galatians last night and I think it fits in 
well with this.  Since we live in the Spirit (being saved by Christ 
through faith), we also should walk by the Spirit.  In other words, we
can't just rely on ourselves, we need to daily, moment by moment be 
submitting to God's will as we are directed by the Holy Spirit.  It also
talks about that the desires of the flesh oppose the Holy Spirit and
the Holy Spirit opposes the desires of the flesh.  The two cannot coexist.
If we are constantly seeking God's will and not just following our own, 
we will live according to the Spirit and not fall into the trap of oppression.  
It goes on to say that if we revert to the law, we are in bondage, but if 
we live by the Spirit we will have the freedom Christ purchased for us.

Carole's answer about jealousy fits in perfectly with this since Paul lists
it as a desire of the flesh.  If we confess this to God and ask for His
grace to change our heart, we can then submit to God and walk by His
Spirit thus not becoming trapped in a oppressive self-desire.

Jill
    

>   I hope this is what you were looking for Alfred.

	It was. Thank you.

			Alfred

    .11 ;-)
    
    In case some wondered what Mike V was talking about, the question posed
    for this basenote is the question asked on the cover of "The Other
    Side" magazine.
    
    Richard

	RE: .29 What sort of reply did the magazine offer?

			Alfred

Yes, I sense there have been a number of significant responses here.  I thank
each one who has responded with a thoughtful contribution.

Peace,
Richard

>Yes, I sense there have been a number of significant responses here.  I thank
>each one who has responded with a thoughtful contribution.

	Did I miss yours? I can't seem to find your opinion anywhere.

		Alfred

    .32
    
    I've started a response about 3 times now.  I'm afraid of saying
    something I'll regret later.  So, don't hold your breath waiting for
    it. ;-)
    
    Peace,
    Richard

    Yes, but Richard, you have often played a valuable role in this notes
    file as a gadfly who initiates or stimulates a discussion.  Adding your
    own opinion would just be icing on the cake.  :-)
    
    -- Mike

    Mike,
    
    Carole and I work at this in very similar ways. 
    
    One of the things I do when I feel strongly opposed to someone or
    something, is I ask myself if there is anything I can identify with 
    in my own behavior that is like that which I am "opposing."  For
    example, such things as intolerance and prejudices really tend to push
    my buttons.  When I related the story about meeting Dave Dawson and
    getting to know him, that process revealed to me my own intolerances
    and prejudices I tend to hold about conservative Christians.
    
    The stronger the negative emotional response I have to someone/something, 
    the surer I can be that it reflects something in me I'm working hard to
    deny.  This is where prayer and meditation comes in for me.  I really
    ask to be shown the "truth."  Sometimes it takes me awhile to sit down
    and sincerely meditate on it, because I can spend awhile getting really
    hooked into the pure righteousness of my attitudes and the justified 
    feeling that gives me.  
    
    I've realized that there's a part of myself that considers such feelings 
    of justification and righteousness as "security."  And that it is.  
    You know, if you are justified in your opposition and/or hatred, then 
    there is no need to seek greater truths or to try and truly reconcile 
    and come to peace and understanding with someone.  
    
    And then of course, there's the peace-making activity that is motivated
    primarily from trying to prove to yourself you're a good person, or a
    good Christian, whatever...  It is not done out of the sincere desire
    for peace, but in reality to shore up your own self-image so you can
    say to yourself "what a good person/Christian am I."  These kinds of
    feelings and the security they offer is based on what Nanci calls a 
    "lack of integrity."  
    
    Usually any peace and reconciliation efforts made upon the shifting 
    sands of our denials, are superficial structures that crumble in the 
    first strong wind.  And then we wonder what went wrong, and if we 
    haven't acknowledged the truth of our own intentions and how we 
    contributed to what happened, we will usually turn around and blame 
    the other person, and the cycle repeats itself...over and over. 
                                                 
    So I try to get myself into prayer and meditation and ask for God's
    help in illuminating those parts of me that are endarkened, that would
    opt, simply for the sake of maintaining their own self-interests, to
    refuse to see and know the greater truth.
    
    Karen

    That was wonderfully expressed, Karen (as always).  

    One thing that I think can be helpful in this process as well is the
    faith community in which we partake.  I think that the community can
    help us achieve the discernment and the support we seek.  Quakerism is
    traditionally identified as a mystical religion, but it is not a
    solitary mysticism; Quakers work together through our shared
    experiences and our shared communion with God, and thereby help us in
    our spiritual growth.

    -- Mike

Alfred .30,

	Any attempt by me to paraphrase the article would not do the
article justice.

	Also, you kind of have to understand that the magazine typically
doesn't attempt to provide the full and conclusive answer to any questions
it may raise.  Typically, the magazine provides brain-fodder upon which
the reader may mentally masticate. ;-)

Peace,
Richard

    Thanks Mike.  One's faith community is an integral aspect in this 
    process, and I think those faith systems, like Quakerism, which 
    encourage and emphasize the mystical aspect of its faith is, imo, 
    better equipped to help people cut through denials and apprehend 
    these greater truths.  
    
    Fr. Bede Griffith, who is 89 years old recently put it this way:
    	
    	"If Christianity cannot recover its mystical tradition 
    	 and teach it, it should simply fold up and go out of 
    	 business;  it has nothing to offer."
    
    What also affects this process is the culture we live in and its "models
    of success."  Our culture tends to over-emphasize success by rewarding
    it and ignoring sincere attempts which result in "failure."  Success
    has an image too which everyone else is measured against:  It's the 
    young able-bodied upwardly mobile good-looking slender politically
    correct Christian white man over there.  And to some degree or another
    most of us at one time or another have felt pressured to measure up to
    some of the items on this checklist.  
    
    That's one of the reasons why appreciation and advocacy of diversity 
    is such an emotionally charged issue, on both sides of the fence.  It 
    really challenges the old models of "power" and "success" in this
    culture. 
    
    But there's a very quiet power in mystical tradition.  In a sense you 
    have to get used to being "wrong" more times that you're "right." 
    That's why many people reject such a path.  But the same qualitative
    amount of honor and appreciation is there for successes as well as
    failures, for what's honored most is the quality of the journey.  For
    the true mystic travels the path as a pilgrim wedded to Truth, that's
    his or her primary relationship; to nothing or no one else.  
    
    Fox sums it up succinctly, "Conscience is more to be obeyed than 
    authority imposed from the outside." 
    
    Karen     

    re 547.38
    
    
    AMEN
    
    
    Patricia
    

   Karen,

   I read .38 last night and all I could say was a loud and resounding,

   				YES.

   Thank you for that.

   Allison

    You're very welcome, Allison.  I thank Divine Inspiration for being with
    me when that was written.  
    
    Karen

    Karen, Divine Inspiration is with you in much of what you write here.
    
    -- Mike