Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

Even those who have died in the fear and love of God are still imperfect; they
will have sinned in many ways during their lives.

The process of recovering from the separation of sin involves:

	1. Repentance
	2. Forgiveness (we got that from Jesus on the cross, if we repent)
	3. Restitution if possible
	4. Atonement (penance, in which our love of God grows even greater)

The atonement process continues after death, and we pray to God that he will
assist those who are growing in his love and service, even in the afterlife.

/john

    
    
    .... you know I am amazed at the insensitivity  present in this note.
    Just a few notes ago a fine woman asks for some prayers for a loved
    one that has passed away, and now we are having debates on it. Lets
    drop it for a week, okay? A little respect..
    
    David

    RE: .2 So far as I can see we are not having a debate. I asked some
    honest questions seeking understanding. Feel free to ignore them.
    
    		Alfred

I recall hearing someone once say, "I don't pray because I believe it'll do
someone else some good.  I pray because I believe it'll do me some good."

Similarly, I can't demonstrate that prayer will do anything for those who've
got ahead of us, but I think prayer on their behalf can do wonders for us
who are left behind.

Peace,
Richard

PS  I believe David was speaking out of compassionate sensitivity to Nanci.
At the same time, I know Alfred to be an honorable person, and though probably
triggered by Nanci's prayer request, I don't believe his motivation for
opening this topic was to intentionally hurt or discredit Nanci.

    Thanks, David, for defending me.  
    
    When I first saw this I have to admit it felt like a slap in the face.
    
    However, I realized that Alfred did not mean anything personal by it. 
    Ordinarilly I wouldn't have such a strong reaction.  
    
    So let the topic proceed and thanks to you again, David.
    
    Nanci 

    
    
    ....okay, guard duty over :-)
    
    
    
    David

Offense-taking happens all too often in this conference, and I believe it
requires us to repent when it happens.

Under the sin of Pride in the Examination of Conscience in St. Augustine's
Prayer Book (A Book of Devotion for Members of the Episcopal Church) I
find "Distrust":

	Over-sensitiveness.  Expectation that others will dislike,
	reject, or mistreat us; over-readiness so to interpret
	their attitude, or quickness to take offense.  Unfounded
	suspicions.

/john

>    When I first saw this I have to admit it felt like a slap in the face.

	Sorry. I didn't mean to suggest that there was anything wrong just
	to understand the "why" of it.
    
>    However, I realized that Alfred did not mean anything personal by it. 

	Quite right. This is an issue that has brought questions to mind
	for years. This just seemed like a good time to raise them.

			Alfred

    I do have a bit of a nit to pick with John's reply.  What I read from
    this is that all of the responsibility for hurt feelings lies with the
    receiver and none with the communicator.  I don't think that's
    necessarily true.  Instead, my take on this is that it takes 2 forms of
    clarity to make a good communication, a clear message (with intentions
    implied or stated) and a clear receiver (reception including the
    knowledge of the source's intentions).  Then again, we can only change
    ourselves and our own perceptions, not what the other person does or
    says.
    
    Now back to your regularly scheduled topic.  Apologies for the
    digression.
    
    Nanci

>The atonement process continues after death, and we pray to God that he will
>assist those who are growing in his love and service, even in the afterlife.

    This I have heard before. I don't buy it though. I asked for Biblical
    evidence of this once many years ago and found it very skimpy at best.
    On the other hand we have Jesus (Luke 23:43) telling the man on the
    other cross that he, the criminal, would we with Jesus in paradise
    that very day.

    		Alfred

	And upon the day following, as the use had been, Judas [Maccabeus]
	and his company came to take up the bodies of them that were slain,
	and to bury them with their kinsmen in their fathers' graves.

	Now under the coats of every one that was slain they found things
	consecrated to the idols of the Jamnites, which is forbidden by
	the Jews by the law.  Then every man saw that this was the cause
	wherefore they were slain.  All men therefore praising the Lord,
	the righteous judge, who had opened the things that were hid,
	betook themselves unto prayer, and besought him that the sin
	committed might wholly be put out of remembrance.  Besides, that
	noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin,
	forsomuch as they saw before their eyes the things that came to
	pass for the sins of those that were slain.

	And when he had made a gathering throughout the company to the sum
	of two thousand drachms of silver, he sent it to Jerusalem to
	offer a sin offering, doing therein very well and honestly, in
	that he was mindful of the resurrection:  For if he had not hoped
	that they that were slain should have risen again, it had been
	superfluous and vain to pray for the dead.  And also in that he
	perceived that there was great favour laid up for those that died
	godly, it was an holy and good thought.  Whereupon he made a
	reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.

                                -- 2 Maccabees 12:39-43, King James Version

	RE: .11 I wonder if that passage contributed to that book not making
	the list of 66 that makes up the canon?

			Alfred