Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    Being on the PSC can be a really challenging and rewarding experience. 
    You may get a chance to work on the "profile" of your church, to learn
    more about what the members believe, what they want, where the church
    is currently, where it wishes to go.  You may be able to prioritize the
    tasks of your future pastor.  A church profile is often a great way for
    candidates to get an early glimpse into the life of the church and her
    people.  It may be a vessel for coming to future dialogue with all
    parties.
    
    What is the reporting structure or the approval path for finally
    deciding who the next pastor will be?
    
    Take your time, pray frequently on this, try to discern God's wish for
    the church, the candidates, the congregation.
    
    Have fun!
    
    	Shalom,
    
    	Ron
    

Hi Richard, 

A pastoral search is an unusual undertaking.  Being a pastor is a very 
interesting position of leader and servant.  I kinda look at it as a group of
children interviewing for parents.  Not a typical type of job to interview for
on either side. 

In the Episcopal church, there are many resources for assisting parishes in 
the search, which my parish learned of a few years ago when we were in need of 
a new pastor.

One step of the search was having a woman from the diocesan office meet with 
us several times.  She helped us understand and express what we saw in 
ourselves as a community, both our weaknesses and strengths, and where we
wanted to go as a community.

One of the most memorable things to me was when she asked us to list the 
characteristics we wanted in a minister.  Good theological background, 
maturity, liturgical skills....she kept people adding to the list until she 
heard what she was waiting for, "a sense of humor".  She said at that point 
that we had a sufficient list.

Good luck, I'll be praying for you and your congregation.

Jim

	A church, searching in vain for a replacement pastor, had reviewed
application after application, finding some fault with each of them.  The
PSC (Pastoral Search Committee) seemed determined to hold out for perfection
in a candidate, but grew weary in time when all fell short.

	Out of desperation, a member of the committee stood up and read a
letter purported to be from another candidate.

	It read:

	Friends,

		I understand your pulpit is vacant.  I should like to apply
	for the position.  I have many qualifications.  I've been a preacher
	with much success and also some success as a writer.  Some say I'm
	a good organizer.  I've been a leader most places I've been.

		I'm over 50 years of age.  I've never preached in one place
	more than 3 years.  In some places I have left town after my work
	caused riots and disturbances.  I must admit I've been in jail three
	or four times, but not because of any real wrongdoing.

		My health is not too good, though I still get a great deal
	done.  The churches I've preached in have been small though located
	in large cities.  I've not gotten along well with religious leaders
	in towns where I have preached.  In fact, some have threatened me
	and even attacked me physically.  I am not too good at keeping
	records.  I have been known to forget whom I have baptized.  However,
	if you can use me, I shall do my best for you.

	The board member looked over the committee.  "Well, what do you
think?  Is this a person we should consider?"

	The committee members were aghast.  Call an unhealthy, trouble-making,
absent-minded ex-jailbird?  This was crazy!  Who signed the letter?  Who has
such colossal nerve?

	The Board member eyed them all keenly before he answered.  "It's
signed 'The Apostle Paul.'"

:-)

Richard

    This very well reminds me of a sermon I heard about six years ago.  It
    was a sermon given by Eddie O'Neal who holds the Chair of Sacred
    Rhetoric at ANTS.  I was yet to become part of the program at ANTS
    leading toward an MDiv and was basically "visiting" the school.
    
    Eddie began his sermon with "This may bery well be my last appearance 
    before you as I am awaiting the outcome of my being jailed".  This
    beginning had myself and everybody else in the church stunned - and
    
    here was Eddie playing out what it meant to be Paul, jailed.
    
    	Shalom,
    
    	Ron
    

Last Sunday, at the meeting of the Board, I was all but asked outright if
I would serve as interim pastor if there should be an interval between
the time our present pastor departs and a new pastor is selected.

I was flattered, of course, and quite honored.  However, I feel most
unqualified, and I truly hope this is a contingency the church won't
have to face.

Peace,
Richard

    RE: .6
    
    It's also a lot, lot of work.......
    
    Marc H.

    Richard, it's a GREAT chance for you to do some very meaningful stuff
    for others and, sure, it's a LOT of work!  Last week Dot put in between
    60 and 70 hours.  She officiated at her first Memorial service, she did
    the same for her first Funeral and Commital Service, did her first full
    Baptism, had a new members class and reception, preached, had her first
    full Communion, visited ... And she feels GREAT (in several ways  :-) )
    
    	Take the opportunity if it's right for YOU!
    
    	Shalom,
    
    	Ron
    

Re: .8 I'll pray about it, Ron.  Thanks for the encouragement.

Richard

	A brief update on our search for a new pastor.

	Our present pastor has requested to terminate his tenure as of
June 30th, with Sunday, June 27th as a vacation day.

	We, the Pastoral Search Committee, have received application materials
from 3 candidates and the deadline date for submitting the materials has
past.  At this point we've requested each candidate to send, among other
things, an audio or video taped sermon delivered before a live audience.
Once we've had an oppotunity to go over all the materials, we hope to be
able to extend an invitation to a candidate to visit us, to see our
community, to be interviewed, and to lead us in worship.  Final approval
would rest on a vote of the membership with at least 85% of the members
voting in favor of hiring the candidate.

	A couple thoughts have come to mind because of my involvement on this
process.

	First, I'm really embarrassed about how little we can offer in the
way of wages and benefits to someone we'll expect to be a full-time pastor.

	Second, it gets me how much we expect from a candidate just to remain
a candidate.  We've had each candidate answer a lengthy questionaire and
submit a personal statement of faith and also a statement of mission.  We've
asked each candidate to gather letters of recommendation written by specific
officers of the local and wider church.  "Oh, and by the way, we need these
things by such and such a date."

Richard

    RE: .10 I was on a principal search committee for a Catholic school.
    The process was very similar, though we didn't ask for tapes. :-) It's
    not surprising that the process is similar of course as a Catholic
    school principal is expected to be a spiritual leader to some extent.

    But we did ask a lot of candidates and I did feel some what
    uncomfortable about the amount we could pay. It was about $20k less
    then public school principals are getting.

    However, I believe that God was with us and that he led the right
    person to apply and us to hire him. He's been great for the school. I
    believe that God helps many such searches to pastors and the like.
    Prayer and a willingness to follow where God leads are an essential part
    of the process.

    			Alfred

Thanks, Alfred .11.

A fear I can sense, but which hasn't been spoken aloud, is that there will
be gap, an interval of time the church will be without a pastor, and that
the church will fall into decline if this period is longer than, say, a month.
I think this unarticulated fear is pressuring the PSC to select a candidate
quickly.

I've also found that I've got a personal preference for a candidate based on
the application materials already received.  I'm concerned that I cannot be
impartial.  I'm concerned that my choice may not coincide with the wants
and needs of the congregation as a whole.

Richard

I'm sad to here that you feel a decline will likely accompany
the loss of a pastor (even though I certainly don't agree with
everything about your church).  Church-goers should focus not
on the pastor but rather on God.  Yes, individual leaders are
important and the pastor is important, but those who attend
should be getting most of their needs met by the fellowship of
other Christians, their service, the teaching they receive,
etc.  Admittedly, this is often not the case.

The last two churches we have attended have gotten new pastors.
I'm happy to say that both churches *grew* during the time
between pastors.  In my opinion, this is because we are a
people who worship God and affirm each other in fellowship
times.  I find that people are drawn in by a group of Christians
who truly worship God - that's certainly one of the main criteria
we use when selecting a church after moving.

Collis

    Our church has declined in attendance while we have an interim
    minister. Its been about a year now.....its a long long
    process to get a new minister.
    
    Marc H.

re: Note 539.13 by Collis "Roll away with a half sashay" 

I agree.

My local parish suffered a political split and lost its pastor a few years 
ago.  In the interim, though quite a few initially left, many new people have 
come in and helped fill out our community.  (Hey, our choir can now honestly
sing four parts plus a descant! .-) 

I agree with Collis when he says that growth comes more through worship and 
fellowship than the leading of a particular pastor (though pastoral leadership 
is not negligible).  I'd also say that there's an element of "a friend in need
is a friend indeed", if that's the right phrase.  What I mean is, that people
in life are hurting.  I am far more comfortable accepting support from someone
who can truly relate to what I have been through.  And I find that having gone
through difficult times, I find it easier to relate to, affirm, and mutually
support others.  A parish that has suffered such a loss can also find a great 
strength as well, learning much about themselves, and discovering what gifts
they have to share.  A parish that has known pain has a lot to share.  And
sharing includes both giving and receiving. 

John 3:16 comes to mind here, "for God so loved the world that he gave his 
only son, Jesus Christ..."  God in the personage of Jesus lived and died as 
one of us, suffered the same, rejoiced the same, so we could truly know that 
Divine fellowship.  Perhaps God also knows us better for that as well.

Peace,

Jim

	It's a funny thing.  I like our present pastor.  I regard him highly
a Christian and spiritual shepherd.  He has a wealth of experience to draw
upon.  But it's not his leadership which draws me personally to worship.

	Attendence usually dips on Sundays that the pastor is scheduled to
be absent.  Part of this is predictable, based on attendence trends that
nearly all churches experience.  The Sundays following Easter and Christmas
are traditionally more lightly attended.  Sundays before a Monday holiday
usually have a lighter turnout.  Attendance tends to drop somewhat in the
summer.  In anticipation of a dip in attendance, these Sundays also are the
ideal days for the pastor to take a vacation day, if desired.

	Another part of this is that some perceive that somehow the quality
of worship is diminished if not led by ordained clergy.  For some, worship
is somehow not as "official" if it's not conducted by someone with "papers."

Richard

    The affects of a church during an interim period probably varies a lot
    from church to church and situation to situation.  The church where Dot
    is the interim has been growing very nicely during the first interim's
    time and during Dot's.  Dot has had three Sundays since February when
    new members joined the church (around twelve people; she has had three
    sets of Baptisms for four people.
    
    Her church was healthy and has remaned so.  This is not the norm as I
    have experienced these periods.  More often, a pastor leaves because
    there's some bad blood brewing and the change is necessary.  In Dot's
    case, both the senior and associate pastors left at tapproximately the
    same time after having both been at the church for 19 years!
    
    BTW, because churches going thru an interim are often doing so because
    of previous past difficult situations, it is almost IMPERATIVE that the
    church get an INTENTIONAL interim, ie. one who has been trained
    specifically for the interim and trained to deal with conflict.
    
    Richard, I think it's perfectly fine that you have a strong liking for
    one candidate, after all, you are as are the rest of your congregation
    (IMHO) equally and fully part of the body of the church.  When you take
    Communion and take a piece of bread, you share not in an arm or a leg
    but in the fullest and most complete way (again IMHO).  
    
    You have been set free to be yourself (and we all thank God for that in
    your case!).  So bring your opinion to the others and listen for the
    spirit amongst you.
    
    	Shalom!
    
    	Ron
    

Thanks for your insights concerning this process, Ron, .17.

You are one of the ones Nancy Smith asked specifically about.  Are you
still interested in securing a pastorate yourself?

Richard

    Richard,
    
    Our profiles are circulating now.  I'll contact you directly.
    
    	Shalom,
    
    	Ron

	It was announced yesterday that our pastor has accepted an offer
to fill the pulpit of a church in Florida.

Richard

We have selected a candidate.

The Pastoral Search Committee for Pikes Peak MCC met at my home for 5 hours
yesterday.

It's now a matter of arranging for a visit with our church and community.
An 80% favorable vote of a quorum of the membership and acceptance by
the candidate will seal the deal.

Peace,
Richard

    Interesting Richard...
    
    				In most Southern Baptist Churches its a
    simple majority though most preachers I know won't accept a call unless
    there are no desenting votes.  It makes for some *LONG* pulpit
    committee tenure's. :-}
    
    Dave

    The 80% figure was self-imposed during a congregational meeting.
    The candidate may insist on a higher number.
    
    I suspect there will be unanimity.
    
    God seems to be integral in this selection.
    
    Richard
    

    Go for a unanimous if at all possible.  Otherwise, rumbling from the
    ranks might cause all kinds of problems later.
    
    	Shalom,
    
    	Ron
    

    .24  Agreed.  It's part of the reason why I prefer concensus to voting.
    
    United we stand.  Divided we fall.
    
    But I don't get to make the rules.
    
    Richard

My spouse and I are having lunch this coming Saturday with the
soon-to-be-Pastor of an MCC in Florida and his life partner.

Sunday afternoon there will be a banquet and presentation in honor of
Marion's and Wayne's six years of service.

Peace,
Richard

    
    Does life partner mean wife or does it mean something else?
    I know MCC has a large gay and lesbian congregation, is the
    soon-to-be-Pastor gay too?  Or am I just behind again on the
    correct way to address someone else's spouse?
    
    Jill 

    .27
    
    When I use the term "life partner" I mean "in committed dyadic
    relationship."  I call Sharon my life partner, my spouse, and
    occasionally even my wife. :-)
    
    Some same sex couples do formalize their relationship with a covenantal
    ceremony called a "holy union," which comparable to heterosexual
    marriage, but is not recognized as a legal status at present.
    
    Richard
    

    
    Thanks.  I'd never heard the term before.  Too bad wife and husband 
    don't give the connotation of "life partner" as it used to.
    
    Jill

Our pastoral candidate will be arriving on or before June 13th.  She will be
preaching that Sunday and staying on through the following Friday.

We've set up some tentative opportunities for the congregation to get to
know our candidate better through planned events during her stay locally.

Richard

The countdown begins.

Our outgoing pastor will lead worship one more time, a week from Sunday
(June 20) and then he'll presumably be gone.

Our candidate will lead worship this coming Sunday.

The Board has divided up the tasks which must be carried out in the absence
of a pastor.  My responsibilities have increased as a result.

Peace,
Richard

    I'm surprised that your church is going to have a new pastor the week
    after the other pastor moves on.  I'm more accustomed to an interim
    pastor helping the church prepare for a new pastor's arrival often as
    much as a year later.
    
    A church is a family and the pastor is part of it.  When one of the
    family is no more, there is grieving, new relationships build, old ones
    may die, old hopes that didn't materialize need to be addressed, new
    visions for the future can take birth.  A skilled interim pastor can
    help the church through this period so that the church may be more
    ready for the arrival of a new pastor.
    
    Also, the skills of an interim are often specialized and different from
    those of the fulltime and permanent pastor.
    
    This is not a note of criticism just surprise at how another church
    moves with the grace of God.
    
    	Peace,
    
    	Ron
    

    RE: .32 I've lived though a number of pastor changes in my life. It
    comes from being a preachers kid. :-) In every case, one week there
    was one pastor the next the new on had arrived. This is the way of
    life in many denominational churches. The bishop appoints the pastor
    and decides when one moves on. In theory. In practice the pastor
    usually does have a say in when he/she moves on. And the congregation
    does have some choice about accepting or rejecting a new appointee.

    			Alfred

The idea of an interim pastor was considered.  Proximity and the church's
ability to compensate someone presented the greatest obstacles to this.

If our candidate is elected, we probably won't have her on board until
September.  In the meanwhile, the Board of Directors will be in charge.

Peace,
Richard

	Well, it blew up in our faces.  Our candidate did not receive 80%
of the vote of members present at the congregational meeting last Saturday.
She did receive 55% of the vote.

	It's all very complicated, but the Pastoral Search Committee has
concluded that the negative votes were not cast against the candidate so much
as against some of the decisions of the Pastoral Search Committee.  The twain
have apparently been blurred, at least in some peoples' minds.

	Anyways, the PSC has a some serious issues to work.

Peace,
Richard

    Not so much fun, is it Richard?  Well, the candidate is beter off being
    rejected now rather than after she became your pastor.
    
    BTW, our denomination typically, but not always, dissolves the Pastoral
    Search Committe, and a new one is formed when such a situation as yours
    occurs.  It is taken that the PSC did its best and now a new committee
    becomes charged with the task of determining the "real" desires of the
    congregation.
    
    How will your church work through this?
    
    	Peace and prayers for your church, your candidate, yourself,
    
    	Ron
    

Ron,

	Our circumstances dictate a different approach.  Our PSC is
comprised of the Board and a couple at-large members.  If the Board
disbands, there will be no cohesive leadership in the church.

	An emergency session of the Board met the day after the vote
for 3 solid hours.  The Board was unanimous that our selection of a
candidate is the right one for our church.

	The timing of bringing the candidate to meet with the congregation
was, in some ways, very poor.  The PSC knew that going into it.  However,
it appeared to be the best of all possible options.

	Another factor: A couple of the PSC members could not be present
at the time of the vote, including me.

	A few interesting facts:

		A vote of the "friends," ie, non-members present at the
	time of the vote, was taken.  All voted in favor of the candidate.
	Of course, this vote carried no official weight.

		None of the negative votes came from anyone who had taken
	the time to meet with our candidate at any one of the many
	opportunities offered beyond the one service where she preached.

		None of the negative votes came from anyone who had been
	with the local church or the denomination for more than 1 year.

		The division of votes seemed to imply that there were
	gender issues influencing it.

		The division of votes seemed to imply that there were possible
	educational and socio-economic class issues influencing it.

	Our intention at this point in time as a PSC is to go through a
carefully planned process of education and working of issues with the goal
of re-presenting our same candidate.

Peace,
Richard

    Richard,
    
    Your church's approach at education of the dissenters seems to be
    pretty good to me and may be a method which ends up with a stronger
    bond with the candidate than might be otherwise possible.
    
    I guess I'm more used to dissenters that seem to stand firm, as in
    "dont' have ears to hear" and so a revote type procedure is just more
    damaging to the candidate.  Like, yup, we thought we didn't like ya and
    now that we've examined you further, now we know it for sure.
    
    Well, good luck and keep us informed.
    
    	Peace,
    
    	Ron
    

Last Sunday was emotionally draining for me and many other members of my church.

The Pastoral Search Committee met for more than 3 hours at my house starting
from about 11:00 AM Sunday morning.  Our District Coordinator (Similar
to the District Superintendent in the United Methodist Church) was present.
And a couple of concerned at-large members of the church were also present.
Eleven people in all.

This meeting was held in preparation for a congregational forum to be held
after worship that evening.

The forum turned out to be just as long and as grueling as the committee
meeting had been.  Many, many facial tissues were dispensed that evening.
But when concensus was reached, it was agreed that the congregation would
be open to taking a second look at the PSC's recommended candidate rather
than starting the entire pastoral search process over.

If our candidate is still open to it, we will be bringing her out again
sometime after the middle of August.

Peace,
Richard

How to apply chain letter technology to a Pastoral Search:

> The Vestry
> My Church of the Most Venerable
>
> Gentlemen:
>
> This chain letter is meant to bring relief and happiness to you.  Unlike most
> chain letters, it does not ask for cash or prayers.  You simply send a copy
> of the letter to six other churches that are tired of their Pastors.  Add
> your church name to the list then bundle up your Pastor and send him to the
> church at the top of the list.  In a short time, you should have received
> 6,436 pastors. One of them should be a dandy!  You better keep the faith.
> One church broke the chain and got their old pastor back.
>
>                                 In Him,
>
>
>                                 Your Vestry

re: <<< Note 539.40 by John R. Covert

.-)

I was pleased to learn that my former church (which I occasionally still
visit) has selected a new pastor.  She's due to begin leading worship
for Pikes Peak Metropolitan Community Church in January, 1994.

Peace,
Richard