Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

Since noone believes us...

I'm told that the book "When Bad Things Happen to Good People" by Kushner
is quite good for people wrestling with precisely these questions.  I was
holding a copy of it in my hands yesterday evening in the Town Library,
but I decided that one book by Spong and one by C.S. Lewis was enough for
right now.

/john

    I second the book by Rabbi Kushner.
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    

Dear Anon .0,

	Your story reminds me of George, a kid I knew in high school.
George had cerebral palsy.  His walk was clumsy.  He practically dragged
one foot.  His movements were jerky and ungraceful.  When he spoke, George
words were slurred and distorted.  Every sentence was agonizingly slow and
labored.  Figuring out what George was saying was seldom an easy task.

	George said there was no God.  If there was, George would not have
been cursed with the condition he suffered.  He was serious, too.  I never
tried to talk George into believing otherwise, knowing the futility of it.
Others did, unsuccessfully.  George was not ready to hear such a message.
There was too much pain blocking him from hearing it.

	I suspect that it's not unusual to reject the concept of a benevolent
Supreme Being when one has experienced a deep hurt or loss.

	The best thing you can do for your friend is to hear that pain, to
hear that loss.  Allow your friend to work through his grief.  It's a very
healing thing to listen to someone's pain and anger without judging them in
any way.  If you do this, you will be giving your friend the gift of presence.
It may seem like doing this lacks significance, but I've seen inner healing
begin with this simple act of kindness on numerous occasions.

	Also, don't forget to pray for your friend.

Peace,
Richard

 I suspect that it's not unusual to reject the concept of a benevolent
 Supreme Being when one has experienced a deep hurt or loss.

   Richard,

   Having been their personally, I can say spiritual emptyness is a form
   of death none should experience.  A lot happened to turn me to the
   idea that God may have a plan for me and made me this way.  I'm sure
   a few even prayed for me, the ones that were there without the speaches
   helping me made a permanent impression.  I still bruse easily, but I 
   have faith that it's just something I need to learn or my HP wouldn't
   have me doing this.   

   .0

   Do what you can, be there, show your faith in a quiet way.  I'm sure
   the stresses will have you see things less than nice but be there if
   you can.  If they reject God as you know it help them culture an
   alternate belief even if it not yours.  Your keeping a soul alive,
   it's triage, you can't be fussy.  Spiritual CPR is real, keep the
   spirit alive.  

   Peace,
   Allison

	Interesting problem. I had a similar thing in my life though it
	affected me differently. My mother, as best I can recal and based
	on stories who knew her well, was such a saint as the grandmother
	in the base note. She was wonderfully caring, supportive of her
	minister husband (being a ministers wife alone qualifies one for
	sainthood - it's in many ways harder then the ministers job), and
	loved and was raising 4 kids in the faith. For the last 5 years of
	her life she suffered from lukemia and was in and out of hospitals.
	She became very weak and unable to do many things most of us take
	for granted. A very difficult time. And then she died leaving 4
	children aged 4 to 10. I guess I can understand someone asking how
	a loving God could do that. I never did.

	First, even at that tender age (I was 10) I could see that she suffered.
	At death she went to be with God and her suffering was over. Later I
	ran into Philippians 1:21 "For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain."
	It is a pivital verse in my life. To me it means that while alive we
	are to live for Christ and let Him shine through us. However, the best
	is yet to come. This is how my mother lived. While alive all who knew
	her could see Christ in her. Now she is recieving her reward. Death
	is a bad thing to those who see it as an end rather then as a beginning.

	I miss my mother a great deal and there were times that I was upset
	that she wasn't there for me. But that wasn't God's plan for her or
	for me. I can accept that even when I can't understand it. I think 
	though that it would be hell for me not to believe in God and life 
	after death. 

			Alfred

    The guy in .0 has come upon a very central question as to the existence
    of the Christian concept of God.  The God that Christians refer to as
    Divine Providence, and as "Our Father who art in heaven...", and so
    forth.  It is very difficult to reconcile the idea of a Being who
    Christians say is looking out for us as individuals, and yet see the
    suffering that this God allows to go on.  Some suffering is inflicted
    by other humans, and yet other is not, as in the case of the woman
    described in the base note.  I know the stock Christian answer to these
    questions are that we are not vouchsafed a knowledge to God's plan,
    but, from my own experience I can say that such an answer simply isn't
    very satisfying.  

    On the other hand, I don't wish the sort of crisis in faith that this
    guy is undergoing.  Such things can be, in and of themselves, extremely
    painful.  The thought of dumping such beliefs as have been drilled into
    one's head from earliest childhood is never an easy one, especially
    when part of those inculcated beliefs include a built-in threat that
    one will suffer eternal hell fire if one dares to deny this God.  The
    man would probably actually have an easier life, I think, if he can
    find a way to believe in God again.  On the other hand, if he can find
    sufficient moral strength to overcome the inevitable pain that his
    apostasy will bring him, he will be the stronger for it.

    Mike

Re:  524.1

  >I'm told that the book "When Bad Things Happen to Good People" by Kushner
  >is quite good for people wrestling with precisely these questions.  

Indeed, some people will tell you that.  I would tell you the
opposite.  His conclusion is that God is not all-powerful and
is simply doing the best He can with His limited resources.
Clearly denies God's claims about Himself in the Bible.

In fact, the real answer (o.k., in my opinion :-) ) is much harder
to accept - that God *allows* suffering, that He often chooses not
to intercede (at least in such a way as to remove the suffering),
and that God *knows* what is best and that this is best.  This is
a very hard lesson to learn.  What appears awful to us is the best
for us from God's perspective.

Some choose not to believe in God (i.e. the God of Abraham, Isaac and
Jacob, the God who revealed Himself to Moses, the God who gave His Word
through the prophets, the God who sent His only Son, the eternally
begotten Jesus, the second Person in the Trinity) because He kills.  
Others choose not to believe in God because He doesn't heal when they 
believe He should.

I believe in God because He is the one, true, living God and is
worthy of all praise, worship and honor regardless of our own
limited perspectives.  When I disagree with what God does, guess
who's wrong?  

Re:  .3

Wise words, Richard.

Collis

    I can maintain a belief in God only because I believe God is not
    omnipotent.  Although it isn't clear to me just how far Kushner goes in
    agreeing with that position, I have always enjoyed and found
    inspiration in Kushner's books probably in part because he hasn't
    written anything about God's involvement in the world that I disagreed
    with.
    
    -- Mike

    re: .7

    Collis is correct.  The philosophy of Rabbi Kushner includes the belief
    that God had difficulty coping with the chaos.  The biblical view is
    that God is almighty and these two views cannot be reconciled.
    But to use today's CP/PC word, I'm not "intolerant" and won't be burning
    my copies of his books.

    re: .3

    One who is suffering and in not a believer cannot be approached by one
    who is not suffering.  Human nature being what it is cannot accept the
    truth that God exists and God loves us coming from one who has not
    suffered.

    That is why it is so important for everyone, not only the clergy, to
    witness to the good news that God so loved the world that he gave his
    only Son that whoever believes in Him shall not die but may have
    eternal life.  No one should be denied hearing the good news.
    No one is perfect but God, we all sin and we are suffer.

    My own witness to the Lord took place in the hospital over several
    months to people who wanted to know "why did God make my baby so sick".
    I believe that all suffering has a purpose.  I prayed with people who
    had forgotten how to pray. 
                                                            

I would highly suggest "Making Sense Out of Suffering" by Peter
Kreeft, and "The Problem of Pain" by C.S. Lewis before Rabbi Kushner's
book.  As someone who has spent a lot of time dealing with cancer in
the last year and a half, I found that both of the books I'm
suggesting helped answer a lot of questions.  I used them in a class I
taught at our church this past spring.  Peter Kreeft doesn't claim to
have all the answers but he does believe that there are clues.  Peter
Kreeft wrote his book partially in reaction to Rabbi Kushner's book.
He acknowledges Rabbi Kushner's pain and his struggle to come up with
answers but doesn't feel that the answer proposed by Rabbi Kushner is
adequate. Peter Kreeft doesn't assume that the reader is a necessarily
a religious person at all.


---
Paul		[email protected]
Gordon		[email protected]
Loptson		clt::ferwerda
Ferwerda	Tel (603) 881 2221



			

[posted by Notes-News gateway]

    Folks,
    
    It is only our refusal to accept and to embrace suffering for its value
    that is our problem.  We hate suffering.  God uses suffering for his
    glory.  Our lives are changed in a positive way when we suffer and
    respond to our suffering in the way God would have us to - either
    realizing our emptiness and hopelessness without Him or dealing with
    the causes of suffering and removing them from our lives or building
    faith and endurance and so on.
    
    The Bible speaks about suffering a great deal.  And of course suffering
    has always been prevalent on earth.  Jesus Christ sufferred
    tremendously and invites us to suffer with Him - daily.  It is our
    ignorance of the Bible and our natural rejection of suffering that lead
    to so many questions and so much issue with the subject.
    
    I'm not a great sufferer myself.  But I know the truth about its
    purposes and who has defined it and therefore I accept its value and
    importance in life (not always graciously however) but I do accept it.
    
    jeff

    re: .11
    
    >God uses suffering for his glory.  Our lives are changed in a positive
    >way when we suffer and respond to our suffering in the way God would
    >have us to - either realizing our emptiness and hopelessness without
    >Him or dealing with the causes of suffering and removing them from our
    >lives or building faith and endurance and so on.
     
    If God is truly the author of human suffering as you say, why in the
    world would anyone want to draw closer to Him.  I should think that a
    rational person would avoid the source of such pain rather than seek
    Him out, much like a child learns to avoid a hot stove, once having
    burned himself.
    
    And yes, suffering can sometimes make people stronger, but it is as
    likely that they will be made weaker by that suffering, as well. 
    
    Mike                                                

Re:  .12

Since suffering is a critical (and often the best) tool for
change, should God use it?  Depends on how important the
goal to be achieved through change is.  From a logical point
of view, God's goal is the highest and suffering, although
painful, is worth the price.  Except it doesn't feel that
way when I'm suffering.

Collis

    
    Though not specifically addressed to this topic, so much of our
    suffering is by our own hand.  But so many times we will not
    acknowledge this or even consider it - to our own disadvantage, I'm
    afraid.
    
    jeff

    >If God is truly the author of human suffering as you say, why in the
    
    Mike, I agree with your comments completely.  My own answer to that is
    that I don't believe that God is omnipotent, and I therefore don't
    believe that God is responsible for human suffering.
    
    -- Mike

    I seriously doubt that the knowledge that God utilizes suffering will
    help restore this friend's faith.
    
    My guess is that such a declaration would likely polarize this person
    even further.
    
    Some people would rather be right than compassionate.
    
    Richard

    Yep, I think you are right, Richard.
    
    Mike

    I seriously doubt that one would respectful the Christian teaching on
    the meaning of suffering write "God utilizes suffering".
    
    "Utilize" here is a spin word used to ridicule the position of the
    people who have replied here stating that suffering has meaning.
    It's petty.
    
    This thread bounces back and forth from the abstract philospohical
    questions raised by the reality of God and suffering to what
    constitutes good counseling practice.

    I have no problem with the word "utilize" in connection with God.
    
    I regret that it pinched your theological toes.  I do not, however,
    intend to consult you every time I wish to say anything here.
    
    Peace in Jesus,
    Richard 
    

    I feel jeff articulated an essential truth in .11 when he said "It is 
    only our refusal to accept and to embrace suffering for its value that 
    is our problem."  The highly lucrative U.S. market for anti-depressants 
    attests to this.  On an average day in 1983, 76 million Valium capsules 
    were swallowed (Fox, 1983, p. 141).  One can only guess how many such
    drugs will be swallowed today, not to mention other "drugs" people
    reach for to mask the symptoms of suffering.
    
    Suffering can empty you.  It can circumvent the ego and bring you face
    to face with the core of your being.  God waits for us there, quietly, 
    in the darkness of our deepest despair.  I think Jesus experienced that 
    himself on the cross the moment after he cried out asking why God had 
    forsaken him.  His suffering had emptied him.
    
    I'm not a great sufferer either, and I don't know for sure, but I tend
    to believe that all suffering has an intrinsic meaning.  All suffering. 
    But part of the suffering we all endure is the incapacity of the
    rational mind to comprehend the meaning of all suffering.
    
    I didn't always feel this way.  Reading a few books, particularly Victor 
    Frankl's book _Man's search for meaning_ in which he related his 
    experiences and insights while surviving the concentration camps nudged
    me in this new direction.  Also dealing with my own sufferings
    more directly has revealed an immense amount to me.  I have found
    meaning in them where before I was only tortured and victimized by them.  
    
    I also have to say that suffering can open the heart to compassion 
    perhaps more than anything else possibly can. I don't understand why or
    how this works as it does, but I guess the world is filled with many
    such challenging polarities and contradictions.  I guess it really
    all rests primarily on the choice each person makes as to how to 
    deal with one's own suffering.  
    
    In the case of the young man in .0, his suffering is still on-going 
    long after the "trigger" incident, while at least his grandma's has 
    ended.  I can relate to this, some of my sufferings are still enduring
    as well.  I wish I could offer some helpful advice.  I do in my heart 
    feel these words of Meister Eckhart's are true:  "All suffering comes 
    to an end.  And whatever you suffer authentically, God has suffered 
    from it first."
    
    And the question that always seems to occupy a special place in my
    heart is "How do I have a meaningful life in spite of the sufferings 
    I endure?"
    
    Warm thoughts and prayers to this young man in his struggles to find
    peace.
    
    Karen

    RE: .19
    
    What sensitivity! I've never meet someone who is looking for an issue
    under every turn of a note. 
    
    Take the replies as face value Pat....people trying to talk about 
    their faith and learn more.
    
    Give it a rest.
    
    Marc H.

re Note 524.19 by SDSVAX::SWEENEY:

>     "Utilize" here is a spin word used to ridicule the position of the
>     people who have replied here stating that suffering has meaning.
>     It's petty.
  
        The original term used above by Jeff Benson was "use", i.e.,
        "God uses suffering...."

        I personally did not and do not see any spin connotation to
        the word "utilize" in this context.

        Bob
        -----

        P.S. Pat, if you hadn't argued so strongly that the
        sensitivities of potential readers/hearers of a term are not
        a sufficient reason to avoid using a term, I might be
        inclined to feel a little more empathy for you! :-}

re: Note 524.21 by Karen "drumming is good medicine" 

Hi Karen,

I agree with jeff's point in .11 too.  But I personally must say I have a 
slightly different view on medication ... now that I'm on some.

If I break my leg, I can attempt to continue to walk on it, causing much more 
pain, and perhaps even permanent damage.  Or I can have the bone set and the 
leg put in a cast and use crutches to allow it to heal faster and better. 
Similarly, medication can be use as a crutch, helping to alleviate side 
effects and allow healing to focus more intensely on the heart of the matter.

I do agree that using medication to simply numb the pain is not a good thing.
(And many drugs are no fun to take either, dealing with *their* side effects 
can be very draining as well.)

>    Suffering can empty you.  It can circumvent the ego and bring you face
>    to face with the core of your being.  God waits for us there, quietly, 
>    in the darkness of our deepest despair.  

Yes.  In fact I am in that process now.  It is not much fun, and in the last 
few months I have felt further from the Love of God than I have in a long 
time.  I have been in this place before, dealing with issues of childhood 
sexual abuse, but presently my journey is going deeper than that.

I've been talking regularly with my pastor, and he is very comfortable with my 
distance from God.  Intellectually I know that it is I who have created that 
distance, and that God waits patiently for me to share my pain, but I am not 
able to do that yet.

Does suffering have an intrinsic meaning?  I don't think so.  I do thing that 
as human beings, created in the image of God, and *with* God, we can give our 
suffering meaning, transforming it into something good.

I don't believe God creates or uses suffering per se, but rather allows it to 
occur, while inviting us to share that pain, to explore it and create
something good, something meaningful, out of it.  Our God is a creative God, 
perhaps suffering is one of the raw materials.

I can't imagine God saying "I'll cause this bit of suffering here.  Maybe 
they'll figure out my Plan and Purpose for it."  My image of God is more like 
"Look at all the suffering caused because people have turned from me.  I shall 
draw close, and patiently invite them to explore and transform this with me."

There is a saying, "the only way Out is Through".  But one need not simply get 
through, but grab on to what one is going through, and offer it as a gift to
God.  I know several people who have simply gone "through" suffering.  Their 
response to another's suffering is to say in effect "Snap out of it!  You'll 
get through it."  Hardly compassionate in my book.

What makes a great sufferer?  Perhaps the ability to understand that 
*everyone* is suffering and to thus be able to walk that mile in everyone's 
shoes.  Jesus was a truly Great Sufferer.  He knows the suffering of the 
entire world.  Couple that with his admonition to love others as he has loved 
us and I see a whole new depth to that love.  A love that intimately knows and
understands pain and suffering and despair.

Peace,

Jim    

    re: .21, Karen -