Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

I'm not so certain that case can be made for homogeneity in matters
of theology and doctrine.

Some may prefer the comfort of conformity to established doctrine.
Others may be less inclined.

I, for one, have learned to embrace the questions and uncertainties.

Peace,
Richard

Truth

That is why homogeneity is important.

Falsehood is another reason.

Of course, for those who believe that truth and falsehood are
not important in understanding who God is, what God offers and
how to obtain it, homogeneity is a barrier rather than an
entranceway.

As one who embraces what the prophets God sent has said, I
accept their claim that falsehood can and does lead to hell
and that truth is needed to respond to God.

Collis

    .2 Thank you for sharing with us another possible perspective, Brother
    Collis!
    
    Peace,
    Richard

    Then truth depends on popularity?

  >Then truth depends on popularity?

Not according to the Bible.

    The one true doctrine of the denial of objective truth appears again.
    
    Since nothing can be objectively true, then any religious belief is
    "true" as long as at least one person holds it to be true.
    
    It's not a democracy, it's anarchy.

    .4
    
    Mike,
    
    	A curious question!  No, I don't believe truth to be dependant on
    popularity.  I've found truth to be something that's usually larger than
    our ability to grasp.  Truth may straddle apparent contradictions.
    In matters of faith, truth often defies the empirical, does it not?
    
    Peace,
    Brother Richard

    We exist in nature.  Therefore what we experience is limited to what is
    natural.  We can never know through human experience what is
    supernatural.

    What we know of the supernatural and the answers to the great questions
    (why am I here, what happens when I die, what must I do while I am
    alive) are revealed to us by God.  It is unknowable through human
    experience.  Faith answers these questions.

    re: .5

    The Bible is not the only depository of true things, nor is it the
    ultimate repository of truth.  

    Re: .6

    I would be the last person to suggest that objective forms of truth do
    not exist.  However, when discussing virtually everything touched by
    the hands of man, a certain amount of subjectivism inevitably creeps
    in.  That includes culture, language, moral values, and all other human
    constructs.  After all, such truths are but responses that various
    disparate groups of people have generated to solve problems they have
    perceived within their environment.  Were such truths objective, then 
    all human cultures would have formed identical moral values in
    response to similar problems.  As we know, such has not happened.

    re: .7

    I agree with everything you just said, except that in matters of faith,
    I would be more inclined to refer to truth as being subjective.  Not
    that we are in disagreement on this latter point, I feel we are just
    viewing it from a slightly different perspective.

    Mike

    re: .8
    
    Pat, you said that what we know of the supernatural is revealed to us
    by God, but that it is unknowable through human experience.  Since God
    is part of the supernatural (you agree with that, right?), but yet we
    cannot experience the supernatural, then it is impossible for us humans
    to experience God.  Therefore, anything revealed to us cannot possibly
    come from God, since no one can experience Him.  
    
    Mike

    The power of humans is limited, the power of God is unlimited.

    re: .11
    
    But how do you know that, Pat?  If humans can't experience the
    supernatural, how can they know anything about God?
    
    Mike 

>If humans can't experience the supernatural, how can they know anything
>about God?

Our incarnate, crucified, and risen Lord is the source and foundation of our
knowledge of the living God.

Through Jesus Christ we know God and through his life and death we know the
total self-giving love of God.

		While all things were in quiet silence,
		and night was in the midst of her swift
		course, thine almighty Word, O Lord,
		leaped down from heaven out of thy royal
		throne.

    Then Pat was wrong when he said that we cannot perceive the
    supernatural through human experience???
    
    
    Mike

Pat was correct.

When God wants us to perceive him, he reveals himself to our natural senses.

/john

    How?  And how does one know it is God revealing Himself, and not just
    an hysterical reaction to an unidentified stimulus?

    These are not idle questions, by the way.  I really want to know.
    You see, so far I have not read of anything of this sort that couldn't
    also be explained as a psychological phenomenon of some sort.  And I
    certainly haven't witnessed anything of the sort myself.

    Mike

>    How?

Any way he chooses.

>And how does one know it is God revealing Himself, and not just
>an hysterical reaction to an unidentified stimulus?

Faith.

/john

    Good questions, Mike.  
    
    Karen

    Thank you, John, for you patience.  I'm afraid I'm going to tax it just
    a bit more, though.
    
    You answered the key question with the word "faith."  But to an
    outsider like myself, I am afraid that isn't a very satisfying answer.
    It sounds to me that you are saying that if a person has an experience
    that he cannot explain, he can call it a supernatural experience if
    he wants to, and that is sufficient justification to call it a message
    from God.  All he has to do is believe that it is so, and it becomes
    so.
    
    John, I know that a Christian places a great deal of faith in what he
    is told is true, and that one must have faith before he can become a
    believer.  I have even heard it said by some Christians that even faith
    is a gift from God.  But, how does an outsider who doesn't understand
    this recognize that he has just experienced a message from God?  Can
    it be explained?  Or is this one of the mysteries about Christianity
    that one must accept on faith?
    
    John, I haven't asked these sorts of questions in many a year, so is
    there anyway you can explain this better?  Because, you see, I have to
    admit that I am truly perplexed. 
    
    Mike
        

	John, you have said faith will let you know it's from God. Can't Satan
also mask the same thing? How do you know it wasn't from him?



Glen

Re:  502.9

  >The Bible is not the only depository of true things, nor is it the
  >ultimate repository of truth.

Agreed.

Collis

    That isn't quite what I meant, but what the hey, we'll let it pass. :^)
    
    Mike

There are only a handful of reasons I can think of for insisting on
homogeneity in matters of faith.

Control - the fewer possible variables, the easier any given situation is
to manage.

Power - by lessening the possibility of independent thinking and dissent,
homogeneity insures the ability to quickly mobilize or sway great numbers
of people.

Validation - Whenever doubt arises, one may fall back on the security of
the familiar and the uniform.  One may take some comfort that there are
many others who share a nearly identical world view.

Communication - Of course, key words will have the same meaning to virtually
every person in a homogeneous group.  A minimum of time is required for
establishing a common message and its meaning.

All of these effects have their utilitarian applications.  I am simply not
so certain that these effects are vital or beneficial, or even desirable,
in matters of faith.

Peace,
Richard

    Obviously this is an area, Richard, where your views and well-formed
    and not inclusive of the ideas that drive many movements to heal the
    breaks in the family of believers in Jesus Christ on Earth.

    Christian unity is desired not because Pat Robertson or Pope John Paul
    II is obsessed with power.  It's because these men sincerely believe
    that Christ wanted it so.

    Christian unity, or ecumenism is the will of Jesus.  Now, I realize
    that this falls into the common pattern of nit-picking "Is this Pat's
    opinion or based on Scripture?"

    But first, in practical terms, the idea of that people could hold
    contradictory beliefs isn't new.  We have free will, but that they can
    hold such beliefs to be the will of Jesus produces the conclusion to an
    "outsider" that there is no Christian beliefs.  Only what originates in
    the leaders of various sects.  I don't have an illusion that there will
    be a unity of all Christians throughout the world.  I believe however
    that tide has turned towards unity and away from greater fracture.

    Here is a translation of 502.23:

    "control" => "leadership" The Pope did not "control" Poland,
    Czechoslovakia,  or Germany but through prayer and moral leadership gave
    courage to the resistance to Communism there. Archbishop Romero didn't
    have "control", he had leadership.

    "power" => "authority" Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and the
    Anglican community believe their bishops are the successors to the
    Apostles who were selected by Jesus.  The Act of the Apostles show that
    they believed that through the power of the Holy Spirit, the authority
    given to them by Jesus was to be passed down to people whom they
    selected as their successors.

    "validation" => "truth" Roman Catholics believe that their Church is
    the guardian of truth and the source of inspiration for faith and
    morals.  Other Christians believe in Scripture alone as the source of
    truth.  A distinctly Christian idea is that of there being an objective
    truth and a judgment by God for the conduct of our lives.

    "communication" => "Gospel" Christians want the plain message that
    through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ we are saved to be
    heard throughout the world to the end of time.
    
    This is my worldview.
                                      

In article <502.23-920803-154511@valuing_diffs.christian-perspective>, [email protected] (Only Nixon can go to China) writes:
|>X-Note-Id: 502.23 (23 replies)
|>X-Reply-Subject: Advantages of homogeneity
|>Date: Mon, 3 Aug 92 15:45:11 GMT+5:00
|>
|>Title: Homogeneity
|>Reply Title: Advantages of homogeneity
|>
|>There are only a handful of reasons I can think of for insisting on
|>homogeneity in matters of faith.
|>
|>Control - the fewer possible variables, the easier any given situation is
|>to manage.
|>
|>Power - by lessening the possibility of independent thinking and dissent,
|>homogeneity insures the ability to quickly mobilize or sway great numbers
|>of people.
|>
|>Validation - Whenever doubt arises, one may fall back on the security of
|>the familiar and the uniform.  One may take some comfort that there are
|>many others who share a nearly identical world view.
|>
|>Communication - Of course, key words will have the same meaning to virtually
|>every person in a homogeneous group.  A minimum of time is required for
|>establishing a common message and its meaning.
|>
|>All of these effects have their utilitarian applications.  I am simply not
|>so certain that these effects are vital or beneficial, or even desirable,
|>in matters of faith.
|>
|>Peace,
|>Richard
|>

Richard,

	All of your reasons seem negative to me.  A positive one is that
if there is a truth, and it is a matter of life and death then it is worth
insisting on homogeneity.  If it makes a difference on whether the space
shuttle astronauts survive or not, then it is important that they close
the airlock the same way regardless of whether or not they agree.

	Paul in 1 Cor 5 insists on homogeneity in the Corinthian church
when dealing with a man and his sexual practices.  He cites two reasons
why the fellow is to be kicked out of the church: 1) so that the fellow
could be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus, 2) so that the "leaven" of
the sexual immorality wouldn't leaven the entire church.  The impulse of
course is love for the individual and justice.  I would guess that in 
the majority our our churches today the fellow would not be kicked out, and
that the individual's practices would be seen as something private and not
something in which the church should be involved.  One could make a strong
case that we don't love our fellow Christians enough since we don't hold
each other more accoutable than we do.

	Practically I like (was it John Wesley) the saying "Unity in the
essentials, diversity in the non-essentials and charity over all".  Of course
the fight is over whether something belongs in the essentials or the
non-essentials.

---
Paul		loptsn::ferwerda
Gordon			or
Loptson		[email protected]        
Ferwerda	Tel (603) 881 2221



			

[posted by Notes-News gateway]

Indeed, homogeneity has its practical advantages.  But it also has
disadvantages, does it not?

Peace,
Richard

    Homogeneity may provide a degree of enforced unity, sort of like
    when Pax Romana provided a degree of enforced peace.
    
    I believe unity can be achieved without rigid uniformity.
    
    I don't believe Pope John Paul II is obsessed with power.  I'm not
    nearly so certain about Pat Robertson.
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    

    Mike:
    
    Good questions in 602.16.  But we know God through ever-increasing
    relationship with Him in devotion and prayer.  Revelation comes through
    relationship, not knowledge or the senses.  God uses thr foolish things
    of this world to confound the wise.  Trust me, you will experience the
    the super-natural revelation of the Lord when you fully yield to Him
    and ask Him to reveal His will to you.  
    
    In relation to the previous discussion about truth, it is the Holy
    Spirit's job to lead us into all truth (read John 16).  There is only
    one truth, Jesus Christ (THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE).
    
    In response to the original question of homogeneity in belief, if we
    are all led by One and the Same Spirit into God's truth, how is it
    possible to arrive at the point of more than one truth.  I contend that
    this happens because too many people ignore the counsel of Solomon when
    he warns His son to lean not on his own understandstanding, but in all
    his ways agknowledge God, who will lead him into all understanding. 
    Sorry for paraphasing so heavily in the scriptures, but I left my sword
    at home and I'm going on memory.
    
    Peace in Him,
    
    Mark

    Glen:
    
    Jesus tells us that His sheep know their Master's voice. 
    
    Mark

Note 1221.18

>The christian cause would be served if everyone could get together and come
>up with a single story on this.  Seems kind of silly the way it is.

I have my doubts about how well it would be served.  A former noter here
used to say, "When everybody thinks alike, nobody's thinking."

Surely you can cite situations yourself where those who were closed to the
possibilities became prisoners of their own paradigm.  It happens not just
in religion.

Shalom,
Richard